Metal connector piece dropped into gearbox

[David Mack]

50 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Sod's law - you'll never need them again. 

 

 

And if you do, it will be so long since you bought them that you can't remember the safe place you put them.

[Alan de Enfield]

51 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Sod's law - you'll never need them again. 

 

 

 

 

"Better to have and not to need, than need and not to have".

 

(Could be used to justify a full suite of spares)

[Tony1]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

Sod's law - you'll never need them again. 

 

 

 

What if it's double sod's law? 

I.e. If I don't buy these things, I am certain to need them within a week.

And then after I do buy them, I'll never need them again. 

 

11 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And if you do, it will be so long since you bought them that you can't remember the safe place you put them.

 

Finding 'stored' items is a constant challenge for me. 

I will be buying these things in the certain knowledge that once stored, they will never be seen again by human eyes- unless I find a machine that turns the boat upside down and shakes it until everything falls out.

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tony1

[booke23]

Out of interest @Tony1 had the item fallen past the gears into the sump or was it near the top?

 

I found this video on youtube of a guy demonstrating the workings of a PRM 120. You'll note that even in neutral all the gears still spin!.....it's just the cone clutch and output shaft that doesn't.

 

For future reference, if anyone finds this thread after a similar mishap, don't start the engine until you confirm where the debris is!

 

 

 

[Tony1]

14 minutes ago, booke23 said:

Out of interest @Tony1 had the item fallen past the gears into the sump or was it near the top?

 

I found this video on youtube of a guy demonstrating the workings of a PRM 120. You'll note that even in neutral all the gears still spin!.....it's just the cone clutch and output shaft that doesn't.

 

For future reference, if anyone finds this thread after a similar mishap, don't start the engine until you confirm where the debris is!

 

 

 

 

 

Thats a great video, I'll bookmark that. 

 

I dont know where the connector ended up to be honest. I even looked at it on his phone screen, but it wasn't immediately obvious to me that it was the offending part, let alone where it was. 

 

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

Thats a great video, I'll bookmark that. 

 

I dont know where the connector ended up to be honest. I even looked at it on his phone screen, but it wasn't immediately obvious to me that it was the offending part, let alone where it was. 

 

 

One hopes it wasn't part of the endoscope which fell off during the inspection.

PRM make some seriously good products. I've had half a dozen of their gearboxes on various boats and never any problems at all.

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by magnetman

[blackrose]

On 05/01/2023 at 14:16, magnetman said:

Vacuum cleaner with a reducer small enough to go in the hole. See if you can get it to stick in the end of the pipe. 

 

Yes or wetvac. They're pretty powerful.

[system 4-50]

Endoscopey things and grabbers are migratory creatures at any time of the year.  They gravitate towards dark spaces such as tanks and deep water, and as they don't have sticky feet or swimming capability, they fall in.  Secure them to a hard surface with a superglue such as blutack and for extra confidence, a strip of selotape.

[jacko264]

Hi I’m glad you got the part out    what was it made off   
Graham

[magnetman]

Good question. Bearing in mind certain aspects of the circumstances one hopes that the customer was presented with the retrieved article. If nothing else it is a good souvenir.

 

Bloke I used to know (deceased) had a crankshaft failure on a BMC 1.5 while offshore. It just sheared straight across one of the main bearings. Bit nasty but not unknown on the 3 bearing versions.

 

Anyway he kept the parts of the crankshaft and had them displayed on the cabin side on piece of nice hardwood like some people display parts of animals they have killed during colonial adventures in Africa.

 

I'd be wanting to see the part, and keep it.

[Tony1]

9 minutes ago, jacko264 said:

Hi I’m glad you got the part out    what was it made off   
Graham

 

I would guess it's aluminium, but it's definitely not steel- its not dense enough. 

 

[Tony1]

12 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Good question. Bearing in mind certain aspects of the circumstances one hopes that the customer was presented with the retrieved article. If nothing else it is a good souvenir.

 

Bloke I used to know (deceased) had a crankshaft failure on a BMC 1.5 while offshore. It just sheared straight across one of the main bearings. Bit nasty but not unknown on the 3 bearing versions.

 

Anyway he kept the parts of the crankshaft and had them displayed on the cabin side on piece of nice hardwood like some people display parts of animals they have killed during colonial adventures in Africa.

 

I'd be wanting to see the part, and keep it.

 

I've got it, but not for display purposes. I'm going to try to find a more secure way of using it as intended, i.e. to connect two lengths of plastic tubing together, the next time I need to use the big syringe. 

I'll definitely need a long-tubed sucking device for the next gearbox oil change, because it is almost impossible to contort myself into a position whereby I can reach the drain plug under the gearbox. This must be why the pros routinely use pumps to extract used oil.

But I also have an idea of using the big syringe to see if I can suck out any water, crap or diesel bug from the bottom of the fuel tank.  

I suspect that I haven't totally killed off the diesel bug, but by sucking out a litre or so from the bottom of the fuel tank every 6 months and adding some marine 16, I think I can maybe minimise it. 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tony1

[matty40s]

Try getting one of the suction pipes from a Pela pump, they are quite long and you just push extensions into a rubber gasket joined.....they may well fit (or be made to fit)your syringe.

 

Look like these.. 

Many other suppliers.

https://www.lsengineers.co.uk/replacement-tubes-for-vacuum-oil-extractor-6-litre.html

Edited January 6, 2023 by matty40s

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I've got it, but not for display purposes. I'm going to try to find a more secure way of using it as intended, i.e. to connect two lengths of plastic tubing together, the next time I need to use the big syringe. 

 

After your experience I think I would forget about joining two lengths of tube/hose. I would just by a suitable length of tube/hose that is longer than I think I would need. A pet fish place may stock it, or online. I think I have seen reels in B&Q to buy by the length.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Might just be easier to contort oneself?

 

[magnetman]

I've never thought of gearbox oik as needing changing unless one is pushing the design envelope of the product.

 

I'm sure most gearboxes on canal boats are incredibly unstressed. Its not like an engine with explosions happening all the time and burning.

 

Presumably the gearbox makers have done destructive testing. I wonder what actually causes one of these things to fail, if anything, and is it due to failure to change the oil.

 

Level is important obviously.

 

Swarf from the gears is a factor and the drain plug may be magnetic but if you are drawing the oil out from the top then you are defeating the purpose of the magnetic drain plug anyway.

 

 

[booke23]

32 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I've never thought of gearbox oik as needing changing unless one is pushing the design envelope of the product.

 

I'm sure most gearboxes on canal boats are incredibly unstressed. Its not like an engine with explosions happening all the time and burning.

 

Presumably the gearbox makers have done destructive testing. I wonder what actually causes one of these things to fail, if anything, and is it due to failure to change the oil.

 

Level is important obviously.

 

Swarf from the gears is a factor and the drain plug may be magnetic but if you are drawing the oil out from the top then you are defeating the purpose of the magnetic drain plug anyway.

 

 

 

Yes they are pretty unstressed.

 

I think in the case of PRM mechanical gearboxes such as @Tony1's the oil does get quite contaminated with friction material from the clutch cones, which I imagine is the main reason for keeping on top of the oil changes. 

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Yes they are pretty unstressed.

 

I think in the case of PRM mechanical gearboxes such as @Tony1's the oil does get quite contaminated with friction material from the clutch cones, which I imagine is the main reason for keeping on top of the oil changes. 

Will this get suspended in the oil? If it descends to the bottom by gravity then drawing fluids out of the top may not achieve the required outcome.

[jacko264]

Lots of garages suck engine oil out of cars nowadays  through the dipstick pipe

graham

 

[Bee]

1 minute ago, jacko264 said:

Lots of garages suck engine oil out of cars nowadays  through the dipstick pipe

graham

 

So do I since some pillock overtightened the drain plug, can't risk damaging the sump.

[matty40s]

59 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I've never thought of gearbox oik as needing changing unless one is pushing the design envelope of the product.

I'm sure most gearboxes on canal boats are incredibly unstressed. Its not like an engine with explosions happening all the time and burning.

Presumably the gearbox makers have done destructive testing. I wonder what actually causes one of these things to fail, if anything, and is it due to failure to change the oil.

Level is important obviously.

Swarf from the gears is a factor and the drain plug may be magnetic but if you are drawing the oil out from the top then you are defeating the purpose of the magnetic drain plug anyway.

My Velvetdrive has leaked a little bit since I have had the boat, I first found out years ago when I set off in tickover and had no forward thrust. Reverse worked perfectly. Increasing the revs gave me propulsion. I topped up the AQF and it worked perfectly...until the next time it needed topping up.

I think the way I use the gearbox and engine probably doesnt help, so I am fairly happy in topping up for the last 13 years, not much, just a dribble every trip.

[booke23]

43 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Will this get suspended in the oil? If it descends to the bottom by gravity then drawing fluids out of the top may not achieve the required outcome.

 

Yes I think you're right.

 

When I change the oil on my PRM 90 there is always sludge at the bottom of the container I drain the old oil into. So it's not ideal sucking the oil out but better than nothing and I guess some installations prohibit draining from the gearbox sump. 

[magnetman]

3 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Yes I think you're right.

 

When I change the oil on my PRM 90 there is always sludge at the bottom of the container I drain the old oil into. So it's not ideal sucking the oil out but better than nothing and I guess some installations prohibit draining from the gearbox sump. 

 

It seems like the OP may have an anatomical installation limitation in this regard.

[Tony1]

3 hours ago, magnetman said:

 

It seems like the OP may have an anatomical installation limitation in this regard.

 

To be honest, I have no idea how people manage this job with trad sterns- I find it difficult enough with a cruiser stern, where a 2m x 1m cover board comes off, and allows you to bodily get into the engine bay. Its the bending over that is tricky. When trying to visually check under the gearbox yesterday, I squeezed into a position so uncomfortable and cramped that I think if the Japanese had inflicted the same treatment upon POWs in WW2, it would been a violation of the Geneva Convention. 

 

To get to the gearbox drain nut, my most feasible plan was to hang upside down into the engine bay like a 17 stone bat- but with no realistic prospect of extricating myself.  At least not without a mission impossible style hoist. 

One has to consider one's dignity in these matters.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Tony1

[Tracy D'arth]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

To be honest, I have no idea how people manage this job with trad sterns- I find it difficult enough with a cruiser stern, where a 2m x 1m cover board comes off, and allows you to bodily get into the engine bay. Its the bending over that is tricky. When trying to visually check under the gearbox yesterday, I squeezed into a position so uncomfortable and cramped that I think if the Japanese had inflicted the same treatment upon POWs in WW2, it would been a violation of the Geneva Convention. 

 

To get to the gearbox drain nut, my most feasible plan was to hang upside down into the engine bay like a 17 stone bat- but with no realistic prospect of extricating myself.  At least not without a mission impossible style hoist. 

One has to consider one's dignity in these matters.

 

 

Use one of the side drain plugs, so much easier!  That is what they are for.

 

Hope that you got the name of that RCR operative, he seems to be one of the better ones.

 

Can I try to get some sleep now please? 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Tracy D'arth