Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak

[Steve56]

12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think these engines may use hydraulic valve lifters and if the engine oil changes have not been done diligently they could be causing poor combustion during acceleration and exhaust smoke. 

 

 

 

 

You are quite right in saying that this range of engines uses hydraulic valve lifters. I've worked on a number of these in the past that have been damaged by lack of maintenance. If the oil is not changed regularly it will cause the lifters to jack open and the valves to hit the piston.

 

In my opinion one of the big problems with this range of the engine was that with the old Listers you could get away with a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance and they would just keep going. A lot of people thought they could do the same with this model but found out they couldn't.

 

The Alpha range of engines are good reliable engines but must be maintained correctly.

[Tony Brooks]

4 hours ago, Steve56 said:

You are quite right in saying that this range of engines uses hydraulic valve lifters. I've worked on a number of these in the past that have been damaged by lack of maintenance. If the oil is not changed regularly it will cause the lifters to jack open and the valves to hit the piston.

 

In my opinion one of the big problems with this range of the engine was that with the old Listers you could get away with a lot of abuse and lack of maintenance and they would just keep going. A lot of people thought they could do the same with this model but found out they couldn't.

 

The Alpha range of engines are good reliable engines but must be maintained correctly.

 

Discussing this engine range with a maintenance bod who came on one of my courses, he said that his company were having cold start problems on older engines and it came down to the lifters holding the valves very slightly open (as you say) but he did not mention piston contact, but also he claimed worn oil pumps or general wear so there was in sufficient oil pressure to allow the valve to open fully. I can't confirm the veracity of this but I found it interesting and think if I were forced to have one of these engines I would be very careful about oil change intervals and possibly an extra filter change between oil & filter changes.

 

[Psychalist]

Like most diagnoses, even medical, there are often lots of questions as there can be many possible causes for similar symptoms. Loss of coolant seems to be one that has many potential causes. In your case, Peugeot106 has highlighted one with the exhaust manifold and the other being the head gasket (one easy to remefy, the other less so). Do you know the history of the engine? Has any work been done on it? I ask because the cylinder head bolts on these engines are 'stretch' bolts, i.e. once torqued up to the specified torque, they should not be re-torqued or re-used. In my case, re-used bolts progressively caused the head gasket tension to slacken and allow exhaust gases into the coolant channels. This could vary depend on which bolts slacket. I think first priority is to determine if the coolant loss is significant and sustained as Tony advised and then check that exhaust gasket as Peugeot106 suggests. This isn't always easy - in my case the progress of my gasket problem was slow and only showed up when cruising, at first when working hard and then more and more even when cruising slowly but never when moored. Stick with it, you'll get there. Good luck.

[Ray T]

18 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not saying you are wrong but I think the canal version of those engines used a plastic header tank with a plastic pressure cap on them. That is why I have asked for clarification/photos. I have no real idea what he means by "the water tank".

We have an LPWS3 in our boat, using standard components.
I was not happy with the OEM header (BLMC) tank as it was difficult to fill due to a beam over the filler cap.

 

I replaced it with a Renault header tank. Easer to fill and holds more coolant. (Our late dog Millie inspecting the job) The tank is above the engine height.
The alloy tank, from a classic car site, is for the central heating. It replaced another rather ugly BLMC tank.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Ray T

[Steve56]

5 minutes ago, Ray T said:

We have an LPWS3 in our boat, using standard components.
I was not happy with the OEM header (BLMC) tank as it was difficult to fill due to a beam over the filler cap.

 

I replaced it with a Renault header tank. Easer to fill and holds more coolant. (Our late dog Millie inspecting the job) The tank is above the engine height.
The alloy tank, from a classic car site, is for the central heating. It replaced another rather ugly BLMC tank.

 

Those tanks were always a weak point. Would tend to part from the engine after a bit of vibration. Best thing to do, as you have done is to replace with a remote tank.

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, Steve56 said:

Those tanks were always a weak point. Would tend to part from the engine after a bit of vibration. Best thing to do, as you have done is to replace with a remote tank.

 

That is why I put a little bit of hose between the tank and the fuel filter to try to cut down the vibration. It didn't work!

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Ray T

[Tracy D'arth]

Late oil changes on engines such as the Lister LPWS series will lead to the hydraulic tappets either blocking and leaving the valves slightly open or mashing them into the piston crowns or they will wear and leak to the extent that they don't stay jacked up and the tappet clearance becomes huge.

 

Often happens with neglected American V8 car engines but being petrol they have sufficient valve to piston clearance to avoid a clash.

[Tgno3]

When I bought the broker said had services from the owner, but obviously this doesn’t mean it was done properly. 
has no history, unless I’ve been told fibs to.

 

interesting Ray T, maybe the reasoning for the bolt coming unthreaded, maybe something to consider.
 

here are pics of the exhaust spitting if interested, also bit of context, this was after having been run for 25 mins) 

 

(disclaimer- stopped engine after seeing how much was coming out, I am not polluting the canal anymore)

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

When I bought the broker said had services from the owner, but obviously this doesn’t mean it was done properly. 
has no history, unless I’ve been told fibs to.

 

interesting Ray T, maybe the reasoning for the bolt coming unthreaded, maybe something to consider.
 

here are pics of the exhaust spitting if interested, also bit of context, this was after having been run for 25 mins) 

 

(disclaimer- stopped engine after seeing how much was coming out, I am not polluting the canal anymore)

 That looks like emulsified oil. Oil and antifreeze mix looks like that, get this engine checked for head gasket failure ASAP.

[Tony Brooks]

Take that and the white smoke (ignoring the possibility of that exhaust flange gasket causing steam) and it suggests incomplete combustion or lube oil, although lube oil in theory produces blue smoke. As long as it starts fairly well from cold it suggests to me that you may have a dribbling injector, but check that exhaust gasket first.

[Steve56]

6 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

When I bought the broker said had services from the owner, but obviously this doesn’t mean it was done properly. 
has no history, unless I’ve been told fibs to.

 

interesting Ray T, maybe the reasoning for the bolt coming unthreaded, maybe something to consider.
 

here are pics of the exhaust spitting if interested, also bit of context, this was after having been run for 25 mins) 

 

(disclaimer- stopped engine after seeing how much was coming out, I am not polluting the canal anymore)

The other issue with these engines was bore glazing. It was a common fault if running under light load and using a high spec oil. Ideally you should be using an API CC oil. If that is the case you may be able to clear it by ensuring the correct spec oil then run in gear at full speed. Keep an eye on temperatures as your cooling system may not be man enough to cope. And yes I do know that CRT say you shouldn't do this.

[Tgno3]

Am calling out canal rescue today!

14 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

The other issue with these engines was bore glazing. It was a common fault if running under light load and using a high spec oil. Ideally you should be using an API CC oil. If that is the case you may be able to clear it by ensuring the correct spec oil then run in gear at full speed. Keep an eye on temperatures as your cooling system may not be man enough to cope. And yes I do know that CRT say you shouldn't do this.

this is exactly what my engineer a couple of wks said it was and I have bought 15w-40 on his recommendation, need to change so will change filter then too, and under the advice of all the above change every 100hrs.

 

I have tried clearing it it’s ALOT of smoke 

 

and not entirely sure it worked 

She starts well even in freezing weather 

[Steve56]

2 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

Am calling out canal rescue today!

this is exactly what my engineer a couple of wks said it was and I have bought 15w-40 on his recommendation, need to change so will change filter then too, and under the advice of all the above change every 100hrs.

 

I have tried clearing it it’s ALOT of smoke 

 

and not entirely sure it worked 

She starts well even in freezing weather 

Make sure the oil is API CC. Should say on the can. If not sure just post what it says and I'm sure someone will advise.

[Alan de Enfield]

55 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

The other issue with these engines was bore glazing. It was a common fault if running under light load and using a high spec oil. Ideally you should be using an API CC oil. If that is the case you may be able to clear it by ensuring the correct spec oil then run in gear at full speed. Keep an eye on temperatures as your cooling system may not be man enough to cope. And yes I do know that CRT say you shouldn't do this.

 

 

According to the Lister manuals MINERAL OIL SHOULD NOT BE USED in the LPWS engines and the specified API grade is "CF", "CG" or "CH"

 

• The engines must be run on heavy-duty lubricating oils. Straight mineral oils are not suitable, neither are oils of less detergency than specified. • API CF-4, API CG-4, API CH or API CI oils must be used in all engines.

 

 

[Ray T]

Slightly off topic, but as engine vibration has been mentioned, we had side rail bearers fitted. There were two resonance points at certain revs where the engine vibrated badly, I can't remember what they were now.

The side rail bearers cured this. Also, we had the engine bearers changed at the same time.

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Ray T

[Steve56]

2 hours ago, Ray T said:

Slightly off topic, but as engine vibration has been mentioned, we had side rail bearers fitted. There were two resonance points as certain revs where the engine vibrated badly, I can't remember what they were now.

The side rail bearers cured this. Also, we had the engine bearers changed at the same time.

 

The 3 cylinder engine suffered badly with vibration issues. The mod you show in your photos was something I came up with when working as an R & D engineer at Lister Petter. It did make an improvement to the way the engine ran.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Steve56 said:

The 3 cylinder engine suffered badly with vibration issues. The mod you show in your photos was something I came up with when working as an R & D engineer at Lister Petter. It did make an improvement to the way the engine ran.

 

 

Can  you explain the difference in your recomendation for API CC oil and the Lister manuals saying Non-mineral oils & API CF (or higher)

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Can  you explain the difference in your recomendation for API CC oil and the Lister manuals saying Non-mineral oils & API CF (or higher)

 

It did not say use "non-mineral oils". It said "straight mineral oils are not suitable". Those two phrases do not mean the same thing. I doubt you could get a "straight mineral oil" for engines in the UK nowadays. They have all been well "doctored" with additives. However, I suppose that in some overseas markets straight oil may be available.

 

There is an alternative meaning and that is Lister just might mean a mono-grade oil is considered unsuitable, like SAE30, so you should use a multi-grade oil as per the manual.

 

I am interested in the discrepancy in API rating between the manual and what Steve86 recommends, but that manual may be a generic one for industrial engines while experience showed up problems in canal use.

 

[Steve56]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

 

I am interested in the discrepancy in API rating between the manual and what Steve86 recommends, but that manual may be a generic one for industrial engines while experience showed up problems in canal use.

 

As you say Tony there are various manuals dependant on if you are using the engine for industrial use, normally high loads or marine use. Even with marine use the engine could be in a sea going vessel and again running at high load. The problem always was that in a narrowboat the engines never ran much above idle speed which is what caused the problems. Another problem is that people put a modern diesel engine into a narrow boat and then try to get them to run as slow as possible. Maybe to try and get back to the days of the old slow speed diesels. But a modern engine was never designed for this sort of work. So always a compromise. From experience as a Lister engineer the best way forward was to use a relatively low spec oil to ensure bore glazing wasn't a problem.

[Peugeot 106]

25 minutes ago, Steve56 said:

As you say Tony there are various manuals dependant on if you are using the engine for industrial use, normally high loads or marine use. Even with marine use the engine could be in a sea going vessel and again running at high load. The problem always was that in a narrowboat the engines never ran much above idle speed which is what caused the problems. Another problem is that people put a modern diesel engine into a narrow boat and then try to get them to run as slow as possible. Maybe to try and get back to the days of the old slow speed diesels. But a modern engine was never designed for this sort of work. So always a compromise. From experience as a Lister engineer the best way forward was to use a relatively low spec oil to ensure bore glazing wasn't a problem.

I use Premier 10W40 API-CC from Filter Mania. Bloody expensive for crude oil when you add to it a new Oil Filter every 100 hours. I use an hour meter so there are no mistakes. 100 hours is not long you need to be stocked up! BUT EVERYBODY warns about the hydraulic tappets - at least there is one less  thing to adjust - I'm not risking mine!!!!

Comment below from a former Lister Engineer and rebuilder

 

"The book says 100 hrs lube and filter change for the LPWS. 

The LPWS is indirect injection so that means it runs "dirty " for a while. Mostly when its warmimg up. 

It takes a while for the pre combustion chamber to get up to temperature. That can put pollutants into the oil. Hence the early oil change. 

The LPW is direct injection.

I'm old school. New oils and their high detergent additives help  prevent pollution by dumping most of the muck into the oil filter to a great degree but I consider oil as cheep metal and change it on all my engines at or before manufacturers recommended time."

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

It did not say use "non-mineral oils". It said "straight mineral oils are not suitable". Those two phrases do not mean the same thing. I doubt you could get a "straight mineral oil" for engines in the UK nowadays. They have all been well "doctored" with additives. However, I suppose that in some overseas markets straight oil may be available.

 

There is an alternative meaning and that is Lister just might mean a mono-grade oil is considered unsuitable, like SAE30, so you should use a multi-grade oil as per the manual.

 

I am interested in the discrepancy in API rating between the manual and what Steve86 recommends, but that manual may be a generic one for industrial engines while experience showed up problems in canal use.

 

 

 

The manual covers all Alpha Engines both in Industruial and marine usage (and also cover marine gearboxes).

 

IT does say that for any 'long running installations' (typically Generators, Fishing boats, industrial equipment etc ) that Lister Petter should be contacted for recommendations on oil types.  I'm just trying to understand why we should not follow the manufacturers guidelines. I'm just hoping that as a LP emplyee Stebe56 may have some answers.

 

It goes on to describe the different grades and their pros and cons :

 

API Service Category CC:

Service typical of certain naturally aspirated diesel engines operated in moderate to severe-duty service, and certain heavy-duty gasoline engines. Oils designed for this service provide protection from high-temperature deposits and bearing corrosion in diesel engines, and also from rust, corrosion, and low-temperature deposits in gasoline engines. These oils were introduced in 1961

 

API Service Category CF:

Usage : Indirect injection

Service typical of indirect-injected diesel engines and other diesel engines that use a broad range of fuel types, including those using fuel with high sulphur content; for example, over 0.5% weight. Effective control of piston deposits, wear and copper-containing bearing corrosion is essential for these engines, which may be naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. Oils designated for this service have been in existence since 1994 and may be used when API Service Category CD is recommended

 

(from the manual : LPWS2, 3 and 4 - two, three and four cylinder, indirect injection, naturally aspirated water cooled diesel engines)

 

 

API Service Category CG-4 - 1994:

Severe duty API Service Category CG-4 describes oils for use in high-speed four-stroke-cycle diesel engines used in both heavy-duty on-highway (0.05% weight sulphur fuel) and off-highway (less than 0.5% weight sulphur fuel) applications. CG-4 oils provide effective control over high temperature piston deposits, wear, corrosion, foaming, oxidation stability, and soot accumulation. These oils are especially effective in engines designed to meet 1994 exhaust emission standards and may also be used in engines requiring API Service Categories CD, CE, and CF-4. Oils designed for this service have been in existence since 1994

[Steve56]

14 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The manual covers all Alpha Engines both in Industruial and marine usage (and also cover marine gearboxes).

 

IT does say that for any 'long running installations' (typically Generators, Fishing boats, industrial equipment etc ) that Lister Petter should be contacted for recommendations on oil types.  I'm just trying to understand why we should not follow the manufacturers guidelines. I'm just hoping that as a LP emplyee Stebe56 may have some answers.

 

It goes on to describe the different grades and their pros and cons :

 

API Service Category CC:

Service typical of certain naturally aspirated diesel engines operated in moderate to severe-duty service, and certain heavy-duty gasoline engines. Oils designed for this service provide protection from high-temperature deposits and bearing corrosion in diesel engines, and also from rust, corrosion, and low-temperature deposits in gasoline engines. These oils were introduced in 1961

 

API Service Category CF:

Usage : Indirect injection

Service typical of indirect-injected diesel engines and other diesel engines that use a broad range of fuel types, including those using fuel with high sulphur content; for example, over 0.5% weight. Effective control of piston deposits, wear and copper-containing bearing corrosion is essential for these engines, which may be naturally aspirated, turbocharged or supercharged. Oils designated for this service have been in existence since 1994 and may be used when API Service Category CD is recommended

 

(from the manual : LPWS2, 3 and 4 - two, three and four cylinder, indirect injection, naturally aspirated water cooled diesel engines)

 

 

API Service Category CG-4 - 1994:

Severe duty API Service Category CG-4 describes oils for use in high-speed four-stroke-cycle diesel engines used in both heavy-duty on-highway (0.05% weight sulphur fuel) and off-highway (less than 0.5% weight sulphur fuel) applications. CG-4 oils provide effective control over high temperature piston deposits, wear, corrosion, foaming, oxidation stability, and soot accumulation. These oils are especially effective in engines designed to meet 1994 exhaust emission standards and may also be used in engines requiring API Service Categories CD, CE, and CF-4. Oils designed for this service have been in existence since 1994

This is the relevant part relating to engines running at low duty cycles ie engines in narrowboats.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Steve56 said:

This is the relevant part relating to engines running at low duty cycles ie engines in narrowboats.

 

Thankyou - I saw that in the Industrial Engines manual I have, but how does that equate to the manual that says for the Indirect injection engines you should use API CF ?, particularly when it says that CC is for moderate to heavy duty engine use (not typical narrowboats)

[Steve56]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Thankyou - I saw that in the Industrial Engines manual I have, but how does that equate to the manual that says for the Indirect injection engines you should use API CF ?, particularly when it says that CC is for moderate to heavy duty engine use (not typical narrowboats)

Can't really explain that. There does seem to be a lot of contradictions over the years and also over different publications of the manuals. I am just giving an opinion of how things were when I was employed first as an R&D engineer and then service engineer with the company. That was back in the day when Lister Petter owned the company and when most of the engines we are talking about were manufactured. Since then the company has had many owners,  with most parts being made abroad so really not in a position to talk about these latterly built engines.

[Tgno3]

5 hours ago, Steve56 said:

Make sure the oil is API CC. Should say on the can. If not sure just post what it says and I'm sure someone will advise.

This is the oil I have been advised to get which says it’s performance levels are API CG-4/ CF-4/SJ/SL

 
the oil currently in the engine already is 10w/40 API-CC/SF

 

thoughts? Considering I am using the engine to charge batteries/ heat calorifier every other day  

(Fyi have plenty of solar)