Lister petter Lpws3 exhaust spitting/ leak

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think these engines may use hydraulic valve lifters and if the engine oil changes have not been done diligently they could be causing poor combustion during acceleration and exhaust smoke.

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that is normal so this lost bolt the OP talks about. Maybe it is one securing the plastic header tank into place, but won't know wiothout kmore info.

 

Incidently, is your pressure cap a traditional metal radiator cap or one of the modern automotive black plastic ones with a pressure inset?

 

Metallic 'oval' with two thumb-lugs at 180 degrees and a big spring underneath.

[Tony Brooks]

Thanks, as I thought. Trouble on neglected cars so no reason not to be trouble on neglected boats.

[Peugeot 106]

12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not saying you are wrong but I think the canal version of those engines used a plastic header tank with a plastic pressure cap on them. That is why I have asked for clarification/photos. I have no real idea what he means by "the water tank".

I don’t know how anything to do with the plastic header tank or any other tank can make water come out of the exhaust which is what he says is happening?  I am not trying to be clever but the manifold gasket is a known problem with these engines and would cause the problems he talks about. At high revs the water pump is producing a lot more pressure.

 

its not difficult to check (4 bolts) and he will not be the first one with that exact problem as I have described. 

 

1 minute ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I don’t know how anything to do with the plastic header tank or any other tank can make water come out of the exhaust which is what he says is happening?  I am not trying to be clever but the manifold gasket is a known problem with these engines and would cause the problems he talks about. At high revs the water pump is producing a lot more pressure.

 

its not difficult to check (4 bolts) and he will not be the first one with that exact problem as I have described. 

 

NB the manifold in my photo is off a keel cooled ex lifeboat engine.

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I don’t know how anything to do with the plastic header tank or any other tank can make water come out of the exhaust which is what he says is happening?  I am not trying to be clever but the manifold gasket is a known problem with these engines and would cause the problems he talks about. At high revs the water pump is producing a lot more pressure.

 

its not difficult to check (4 bolts) and he will not be the first one with that exact problem as I have described. 

 

 

Ah, clearer now, I was still looking for the "water leak in the bilge". Certainly a very good idea to check that gasket, especially as the location of that water gallery is such that in the event of the gasket leaking coolant could get into a cylinder with all that could cause. If it turns out to be that I just hope no damage has been done. It would certainly explain the white smoke (steam) when he revs the engine.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Tgno3 said:

Hi as not done enough posts on here I can’t access/ send PMs. Would be very useful 

 

You have 10 posts now - you should be OK to use the message system now.

 

Give it a try !

[Peugeot 106]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Ah, clearer now, I was still looking for the "water leak in the bilge". Certainly a very good idea to check that gasket, especially as the location of that water gallery is such that in the event of the gasket leaking coolant could get into a cylinder with all that could cause. If it turns out to be that I just hope no damage has been done. It would certainly explain the white smoke (steam) when he revs the engine.

Thanks Tony I am quietly confident that I may at last have solved someone’s problem. I know that you do this all the time. 

The hydraulic tappets are always talked about with these engines as is the 100 Hour oil change. I change mine religiously ( I have an hour counter) and have had no problems 

Happy New Year Tony and thank you for years of advice

Apprentice

[Tony Brooks]

And thank you for constructive suggestions. If it is that gasket he should be losing coolant at a fair rate - assuming skin tank cooling!

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, Tgno3 said:

Hi as not done enough posts on here I can’t access/ send PMs. Would be very useful 

 

I have sent you a message - see if you get it.

[Tgno3]

Thanks for all the advice-

just to be clear, I’m not experiencing symptoms of misfirings so unsure that it this.

 

-the washer needing replacing is the copper seal ring for the fuel injector banjo bolt 

-the lost bolt is to secure the header tank, this could just be coincidence that this has come unthreaded but thought I would mention as this had happened in the past couple of days 

-coolant lost after running is usually about 5- 10mm depending on how long I’ve ran her for from the max line in the header tank, even if I’ve been running for a few hours and even under load it never goes down more than this. 

- overall the levels of oil/ coolant don’t dramatically go down sometimes they don’t go down at all. 
 

*update* sorry for previous confusion it’s a mixture of fuel and coolant in the bilge 

I cleared some out today

 

will upload images 

 

 
 

 

 

[Tgno3]

[Psychalist]

Pictures tell so much more don't they. It's interesting how the different installations of these engines vary. There seem to be quite a few variants depending on application. In your case the header tank and air filter are swapped compared to mine.

 

In terms of coolant expansion, you might expect a larger variation depending on the season and size of your skin tank (and whether you have the cap on). Mine typically ranges the nearly the whole volume of the tank but this is only when working hard, i.e. cruising at a reasonable speed, not idling. Because the vent pipe from the exhaust manifold comes into the expansion tank under the pressure cap, it does mean when at 1500 rpm or above, it is pushing coolant across the bottom of the cap inside, which if venting due to expansion, means some coolant gets expelled and ends up in the bilge. keeping the level much lower and warming up slowly appears to be the only way to avoid this without having a separate header tank.

[Peugeot 106]

2 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

Thanks for all the advice-

just to be clear, I’m not experiencing symptoms of misfirings so unsure that it this.

 

-the washer needing replacing is the copper seal ring for the fuel injector banjo bolt 

-the lost bolt is to secure the header tank, this could just be coincidence that this has come unthreaded but thought I would mention as this had happened in the past couple of days 

-coolant lost after running is usually about 5- 10mm depending on how long I’ve ran her for from the max line in the header tank, even if I’ve been running for a few hours and even under load it never goes down more than this. 

- overall the levels of oil/ coolant don’t dramatically go down sometimes they don’t go down at all. 
 

*update* sorry for previous confusion it’s a mixture of fuel and coolant in the bilge 

I cleared some out today

 

will upload images 

 

 
 

 

 

You will lose coolant if the exhaust manifold gasket is leaking. The water pump turns a lot slower on tickover so you may not lose so much or any coolant when running slowly. Is there any reason why you can’t undo the 4 nuts and pull the flanges apart? The exhaust should be flexible at this point and it should all be accessible you just need a M8 spanner (13mm). If they won’t come undone (be careful not to strip them or break the studs) soak overnight in penetrating oil or apply heat to the nuts. 

 

If taking the joint apart is above your pay grade and you have an engineer coming I would explain this theory to him as I have a feeling that this particular problem with the gasket may be particular to these LPW engines only and he may not be aware of it. 

Most people seem to love or hate these engines. Fortunately they are pretty easy to work on and spares are easy to come by. I’ve had my share of problems with mine though nothing serious and it always works very well. I’m anal about the oil change. 

The only fuel banjos I know of are on the fuel filter. If it is the CAV type there are two threads available. Metric and UNC. Make sure you get the right one.If the threads are gone on the filter you can buy a replacement head off eBay I think.

Blue paper towel is your friend for finding leaks! (And you can dry your eyes on it after weeping and cursing Mr Lister and Mr Petter)

CORRECTION i’ve Just looked at the parts list. The early engines have banjos connecting the spill lines on the injectors. The later engines (which I have it is a 400:series) just have push on rubber pipes for spill. 

 

What is your serial no? Written on the inlet manifold?

 

good luck you will win in the end!

 

 

 

 

[Peugeot 106]

23 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

I’m hoping you can get at the flange under the wood frame. Here’s hoping it’s not hard up against the manifold. Please tell me you can get at it?

 

i see the injectors have the banjo connectors for the spill line. You can get new washers called “seals”  from Sleeman Hawken” part 270-00475. You need 6 off. Quote them the serial no. they are very good.

 

as before good luck

 

 

[Peugeot 106]

[Tony Brooks]

1. A minor fuel leak from a banjo bolt is unlikely to cause any problems.

 

2. The lost bolt is almost certainly a nut and set screw (a set screw is a bolt with the thread all the way to the head. Any old matched nut and screw of the correct diameter will do.

 

3.  That header tank is an automotive unit, I doubt Lister paid to have them specially made, so the markings relate top a vehicle with a far lower coolant capacity than a tank cooled canal boat. Accepting what was said about that exhaust flange gasket it sounds to me as if the coolant loss may well be because you are overfilling it for your coolant capacity. If you do not top it up and kit drops another 5 to 10mm, then another 5 to 10mm then it indicates a leak, but if it does not drop then you were over filing it. See my advice above for establishing the correct maximum level.

 

[Tgno3]

5 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I’m assuming that you have skin tank cooling and not raw water cooling. The exhaust manifold will probably look like my photo although there are some specifically for skin tank cooling without the slot. 

For skin tank cooling the slot is covered by a full gasket stopping water coming out of the slot and into the exhaust. The water instead exits via an elbow in the top of the manifold into the skin tank. If this full gasket fails you will get coolant leaking into the exhaust (and also into the cylinders). (For raw water cooling the coolant comes out of the slot and is “injected” into the exhaust so the manifold with slot is used for both methods of cooling). This would explain the spitting from the exhaust (as would water that has leaked into the exhaust) the oil is probably out of the exhaust it can be yukky inside it! You can buy new gaskets from Sleeman Hawkenbut specify the one without the slot! I think it could be a good idea to prevent reoccurrence with a metal plate as well as the gasket. This is a known problem with these engines and can cause terminal damage if left. 

A bit of black smoke if you change revs quickly is quite normal caused by temporary over fuelling. 

I think the oil leak is probably a separate issue but you need to attend to the manifold gasket promptly to avoid damage if that is the issue

Hope this helps. I have had issues with oil leaks on my LPWS2 and can probably help in the future but fix the water first!

 

 

 

Thank you this is v v v helpful. 
there would be no reason to not be able to check the bolts, even though I understand what you are saying I would be so worried I would fudge something up without the knowledge to fix.

For someone to come and fix this specific problem what would you imagine they would charge or hours to be able to do (just so I know I’m not being had on)

I wish I had the know how to do this sort of thing but I guess this is how you learn ay! 
 

28 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

1. A minor fuel leak from a banjo bolt is unlikely to cause any problems.

 

2. The lost bolt is almost certainly a nut and set screw (a set screw is a bolt with the thread all the way to the head. Any old matched nut and screw of the correct diameter will do.

 

3.  That header tank is an automotive unit, I doubt Lister paid to have them specially made, so the markings relate top a vehicle with a far lower coolant capacity than a tank cooled canal boat. Accepting what was said about that exhaust flange gasket it sounds to me as if the coolant loss may well be because you are overfilling it for your coolant capacity. If you do not top it up and kit drops another 5 to 10mm, then another 5 to 10mm then it indicates a leak, but if it does not drop then you were over filing it. See my advice above for establishing the correct maximum level.

 

Thanks Tony, this makes perfect sense I.e the coolant level

[Peugeot 106]

21 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

Thank you this is v v v helpful. 
there would be no reason to not be able to check the bolts, even though I understand what you are saying I would be so worried I would fudge something up without the knowledge to fix.

For someone to come and fix this specific problem what would you imagine they would charge or hours to be able to do (just so I know I’m not being had on)

I wish I had the know how to do this sort of thing but I guess this is how you learn ay! 
 

Thanks Tony, this makes perfect sense I.e the coolant level

Yes this does make perfect sense to me too. You need to follow Tony’s advice re level. But I am still concerned IF YOU HAVE WATER COMING OUT OF THE EXHAUST ( which you said you did ). If this is making its way to the engine and you don’t fix it you could be in long term trouble if you ignore it. The water could be condensation like on a car on start up or rainwater dribbling into the exhaust and if the exhaust slopes down towards the engine........ As I have said this is not unheard of with these engines and can be the end of them. 

 

It could also also be a head gasket. Don’t panic it is a simple job to change.

 

I think to be safe you really do need to be sure no water is coming out of the exhaust. If needs be pay somebody it will only take them minutes and you can put it back together with a new gasket. The flexible exhaust will by the way be under the white fibreglass wrapping you can leave the wrapping on I can see the nuts in the photo.  It may be that the exhaust flange undoes easily - mine does - and you only need a 13mm spanner. Try the spanner without hitting it or forcing it and see what happens. it’s not a bad idea to put a smear of copper grease on the studs before you put the nuts back on. Any tyre seller will give you a small amount. 

 

NB my LPWS has never had water coming out of the exhaust. If you have been overfilling the tank ( a lot of people do) that is easily fixed but if you have water in the exhaust it will make absolutely no difference to that or the consequences. 

Best of Luck

[Peugeot 106]

 

River Canal Rescue are about £60 to join for the year which could be worth it in the future and £40 for a callout. Tell them you have water in the exhaust and show them this thread.

They don’t get very good press on this forum but I got them when I had a fuel pipe burst in Wigan and they were very good. There was diesel everywhere the engine had been fitted without a flexible......I’ve heard other people having good experience with them maybe only bad experience reported here He fitted a flexible on both pipes and sucked all the spilled diesel out, mopped up and disposed of the contaminated diesel. All for £40 and left me with spare rubber pipe

At least they have a van full of tools (hopefully) which makes life easier

 

[Tgno3]

4 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

 

River Canal Rescue are about £60 to join for the year which could be worth it in the future and £40 for a callout. Tell them you have water in the exhaust and show them this thread.

They don’t get very good press on this forum but I got them when I had a fuel pipe burst in Wigan and they were very good. There was diesel everywhere the engine had been fitted without a flexible......I’ve heard other people having good experience with them maybe only bad experience reported here He fitted a flexible on both pipes and sucked all the spilled diesel out, mopped up and disposed of the contaminated diesel. All for £40 and left me with spare rubber pipe

At least they have a van full of tools (hopefully) which makes life easier

 

Well funny you mention I’m actually already with them but I thought it may not be a big enough job to call them out for but CLEARLY it is I’m actually quite worried now, well more worried than I was.

 

I do really appreciate all the time you have and the rest of the people on the thread have put in to advise ! 
 

happy new year to you, cheers again

 

 

[Peugeot 106]

4 minutes ago, Tgno3 said:

Well funny you mention I’m actually already with them but I thought it may not be a big enough job to call them out for but CLEARLY it is I’m actually quite worried now, well more worried than I was.

 

I do really appreciate all the time you have and the rest of the people on the thread have put in to advise ! 
 

happy new year to you, cheers again

 

 

Go for it. They may be quiet at this time of year. You don’t need to tell any one! One of these days Tony will reveal his phone number and we will all write it in felt Tip in our engine bays. Please report back after their visit!

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Go for it. They may be quiet at this time of year. You don’t need to tell any one! One of these days Tony will reveal his phone number and we will all write it in felt Tip in our engine bays. Please report back after their visit!

 

The phone number is buried in my website but I don't like trying to help via the phone. I much prefer email so I have time to think and can ask for photos or further questions. The boater then has time to find what I think I need and email back to me. Sometimes the correspondence runs for days.

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I much prefer email so I have time to think and can ask for photos or further questions.

 

 

That problem is highlighted on this forum - a boater has a problem but he doesn't know what he needs to know to be able to explain or show the details to allow "you" to help identify the problem.

 

You then get the follow on "but why do you need a photo of it, I told you its a blue engine and it won't start", or even worse just no-response at all as it is perceived you are just being awkward or difficult in wanting pictures.

[Peugeot 106]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That problem is highlighted on this forum - a boater has a problem but he doesn't know what he needs to know to be able to explain or show the details to allow "you" to help identify the problem.

 

You then get the follow on "but why do you need a photo of it, I told you its a blue engine and it won't start", or even worse just no-response at all as it is perceived you are just being awkward or difficult in wanting pictures.

Agreed a lot of the time but Tgno3 has been pretty good with info whilst admitting that he’s no expert. I get value out of these threads as I learn too. If all posters were like him the forum would be fine by me. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Agreed a lot of the time but Tgno3 has been pretty good with info whilst admitting that he’s no expert. I get value out of these threads as I learn too. If all posters were like him the forum would be fine by me. 

 

Agreed it was not aimed at Tgno, just a generalisation.

[Tgno3]

Glad that one’s cleared up. I certainly am no expert at all but either way I have come away from this thread knowing a hell of a lot more than I did this morning. 

it’s wonderful that people WANT to give their valuable knowledge and time to do so. I can see the annoyance if people weren’t being so helpful as to not give detailed explanations/ pics. It’s good folks like myself who are not as knowledgable are not scared to ask on here. With some fb boater pages You would just get barked down at ‘why do you live on a boat if you don’t know how to fix everything’- I’m here to learn, we all have to start somewhere ! 

 

i really do appreciate all of it, so thanks again 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Tgno3