Guest Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 For anybody that knows the area this is an interesting vid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, M_JG said: For anybody that knows the area this is an interesting vid. A shame all the infrastructure has gone, would have been ideal to hook up to for todays milk float generation Edited January 3, 2023 by mrsmelly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 3 hours ago, M_JG said: For anybody that knows the area this is an interesting vid. I probably used that bus when I was a kid in Middlesbrough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Pegg Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 4 hours ago, IanD said: You mean one or two wires? IIRC from the photos I saw it only had one wire, return current was via the chain it pulled itself along. Or maybe that was somewhere else... My instinctive thought was that having the return conductor submerged in water must be a bad thing so I meant two wires. But actually it's no different from a tram where the return conductor is a rail embedded in the ground and which often gets submerged in rainwater. On most systems it's just a zero(ish) potential path of low resistance, albeit on heavy rail it is generally insulated from the ground (and most definitely so on the London Underground which uses positive and negative conductors rather than live and neutral). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Midnight said: I probably used that bus when I was a kid in Middlesbrough Ditto. My grandma lived in North Ormesby and we would often ride the trolley buses. She lived on Ormesby Road opposite to St. Joseph's cemetry. I lived in Berwick Hills at the time. Westerdale Road. Found this one too. Must be a later liveried one too as TMT and the colour was a late on development. Edited January 3, 2023 by M_JG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxmike Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 In Douglas, Isle of Man, we used to have trolley buses that ran on a chain under the road operated at the depot. The chain ran continuously, the trolley bus would latch on and then off to allow the bus to stop. One motor operating numerous buses. The system worked, was far more "green" than each unit having it's own engine, no overhead electric lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 Just now, manxmike said: In Douglas, Isle of Man, we used to have trolley buses that ran on a chain under the road operated at the depot. The chain ran continuously, the trolley bus would latch on and then off to allow the bus to stop. One motor operating numerous buses. The system worked, was far more "green" than each unit having it's own engine, no overhead electric lines. The cable cars in San Francisco run on a similar basis using cables that the drivers clamp the cars onto. I once got see one of the sites where they switched cable directions. Fascinating stuff and very clever for its time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo47 Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 (edited) In the early days of electricity generation when DC mains were common and the main electrical load was night-time electric lighting, electric trams made economic sense by utilising spare generating capacity during the day, especially where both the local power station and the tramway were owned and run by the same local authority. Because the law was that tramway companies were responsible for the upkeep of the carriageway beween the rails (apparently a hangover from the days of horse-drawn trams, when the tramway's horses would have caused significant wear to the often unmetalled roads of the era), but trolleybuses were not, trams were put at a financial disadvantage, despite the fact that electric trams caused no damage to the road surface. The rolling resistance of a steel wheel on a steel rail is much lower than a rubber tyre on tarmac, but when energy was relatively cheap, this wasn't so important. I can think if two factors favouring replacement of trolleybuses by diesels: the availability of cheap imported oil, and the loss of DC mains supplies. The latter was certainly a factor in Cardiff losing its trolleybuses at the end of the 1960's. The trollybuses used to use Cardiff's public DC mains, which existed in parallel with the public AC mains and used to be used by local industry, in particular the cranes in the Cardiff Docks. The DC power station at Colchester Avenue was becoming life-expired, and by 1969 the docks had effectively closed, and its only remaining DC customers were the trolleybus system and the electrical engineering department of the university, which, after closure of the public DC mains, had to install powerful rectifier apparatus to produce the high voltage DC mains supply needed for its machines lab experiments. .I guess that, now that energy cost is important, the lower rolling resistance of trams and the consequential reduced power needed to move a tram compared to a rubber-tyred vehicle, might be making trams a more attractive proposition again. Edited January 3, 2023 by Ronaldo47 typos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 34 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said: In the early days of electricity generation when DC mains were common and the main electrical load was night-time electric lighting, electric trams made economic sense by utilising spare generating capacity during the day, especially where both the local power station and the tramway were owned and run by the same local authority. Because the law was that tramway companies were responsible for the upkeep of the carriageway beween the rails (apparently a hangover from the days of horse-drawn trams, when the tramway's horses would have caused significant wear to the often unmetalled roads of the era), but trolleybuses were not, trams were put at a financial disadvantage, despite the fact that electric trams caused no damage to the road surface. The rolling resistance of a steel wheel on a steel rail is much lower than a rubber tyre on tarmac, but when energy was relatively cheap, this wasn't so important. I can think if two factors favouring replacement of trolleybuses by diesels: the availability of cheap imported oil, and the loss of DC mains supplies. The latter was certainly a factor in Cardiff losing its trolleybuses at the end of the 1960's. The trollybuses used to use Cardiff's public DC mains, which existed in parallel with the public AC mains and used to be used by local industry, in particular the cranes in the Cardiff Docks. The DC power station at Colchester Avenue was becoming life-expired, and by 1969 the docks had effectively closed, and its only remaining DC customers were the trolleybus system and the electrical engineering department of the university, which, after closure of the public DC mains, had to install powerful rectifier apparatus to produce the high voltage DC mains supply needed for its machines lab experiments. .I guess that, now that energy cost is important, the lower rolling resistance of trams and the consequential reduced power needed to move a tram compared to a rubber-tyred vehicle, might be making trams a more attractive proposition again. We recently had an extension of the Tram from Sheffield to Rotherham so maybe running costs are cheaper? However it was done as an experiment by the DOT apparently 100% successful. Graham Davis will know the problems of running a tram on train tracks? And making sure trains don't end up on tram tracks! At 2 squids a pop I love the tram comfortable and fast, it also causes no local air pollution. Only problem is dogs not allowed to travel on them, but for a night out in Sheffield its brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Pegg Posted January 3, 2023 Report Share Posted January 3, 2023 42 minutes ago, peterboat said: We recently had an extension of the Tram from Sheffield to Rotherham so maybe running costs are cheaper? However it was done as an experiment by the DOT apparently 100% successful. Graham Davis will know the problems of running a tram on train tracks? And making sure trains don't end up on tram tracks! At 2 squids a pop I love the tram comfortable and fast, it also causes no local air pollution. Only problem is dogs not allowed to travel on them, but for a night out in Sheffield its brilliant 100% successful if you ignore minor issues like time and budget. I suspect as client the DfT weren't enthused (and I have some inside knowledge here). The technology isn't new, just new to the UK with this particular scheme. Any vehicle that operates on heavy rail infrastructure requires far greater crashworthiness than a pure tram (hence it isn't just a case of extending existing tram routes onto railways). Other key differences are platform heights and electrical power distribution systems. The 1500v dc of the Sheffield Supertram is pre-war technology for railways. Trains are prevented from entering tramways by the signalling system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Captain Pegg said: The 1500v dc of the Sheffield Supertram is pre-war technology for railways. Sheffield Supertram operates at 750V dc as do the other UK tramway systems (except Blackpool - 600V dc). But the tram-train vehicles which operate the Rotherham service are also equipped for 25kV ac operation. Most other tram and light rail systems worldwide operate at around 750V dc, although there a few at 1500V dc. Edited January 4, 2023 by David Mack 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Pegg Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 minute ago, David Mack said: Sheffield Supertram operates at 750V dc as do the other UK tramway systems (and most others worldwide), but the tram-train vehicles which operate the Rotherham service are also equipped for 25kV ac operation. Even less than I thought. I guess there are limitations on what can be strung up overhead on public highways. I understood the heavy rail section to have the same dc system as the tram network though so that would mean the ac capability is not used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Mack Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 Just now, Captain Pegg said: I understood the heavy rail section to have the same dc system as the tram network though so that would mean the ac capability is not used? Correct. I suspect the 25kV ac capability was a standard feature of the chosen traction control system, given its widespread use on railways, so it made sense to retain it, should the section of the national rail network over which the tram trains operate ever be electrified at 25kV ac. I have read that the Sheffield tram-train vehicles were actually tested on 25kV ac lines before being delivered to the UK. 6 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said: Even less than I thought. I guess there are limitations on what can be strung up overhead on public highways. UK regulations specify maximum 750V dc on street running tramways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterboat Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 My sauna friend was involved in the extension to Rotherham, he said at the time it was going to overspend,he based it on how much it cost to do repairs to existing infrastructure. I use it because it easier than driving and parking plus both stops are near to me, however we can park our electric car for free in sheffield in numerous council car parks or roads we have to register it yearly online well worth the effort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnetman Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 It is remarkable how many selfie-deaths are related to overhead lines on railways. For some reason people want to have a picture of themselves interacting with a wire carrying enough electricity to move a train with 1000 people in it at 80mph. Bizarre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_selfie-related_injuries_and_deaths One imagines there would be a whole lot more if the wires were even more accessible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 I had no idea taking a photo of oneself was so dangerous! I've never felt the need to particularly, and and always amazed to see tourists doing it in front of things I'd rather be taking photos of directly. As in "Here's me in front of Windsor Castle", "Here's me in front of Buckingham Palace" etc. Instead of here's a nice photo I took of Windsor Castle etc. So egocentric!! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmr Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 3 hours ago, magnetman said: It is remarkable how many selfie-deaths are related to overhead lines on railways. For some reason people want to have a picture of themselves interacting with a wire carrying enough electricity to move a train with 1000 people in it at 80mph. Bizarre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_selfie-related_injuries_and_deaths One imagines there would be a whole lot more if the wires were even more accessible. I think the best two are people taking a selfies of themselves pointing a gun at their own head, I assume that they then pressed the wrong trigger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyG Posted January 4, 2023 Report Share Posted January 4, 2023 11 hours ago, MtB said: I had no idea taking a photo of oneself was so dangerous! I've never felt the need to particularly, and and always amazed to see tourists doing it in front of things I'd rather be taking photos of directly. As in "Here's me in front of Windsor Castle", "Here's me in front of Buckingham Palace" etc. Instead of here's a nice photo I took of Windsor Castle etc. So egocentric!! Do they actually go round boring friends with such photos, I like paper photos but I'm really not interested in phone photos, I believe people if they tell me they've been somewhere. I know I have CDs of the last wedding I went to, I've never looked at them, I was there, and nothing much happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted January 5, 2023 Report Share Posted January 5, 2023 11 hours ago, LadyG said: Do they actually go round boring friends with such photos, I like paper photos but I'm really not interested in phone photos, I believe people if they tell me they've been somewhere. I know I have CDs of the last wedding I went to, I've never looked at them, I was there, and nothing much happened. Do you remember those ( friends ) years ago that if you went round to theirs, would bore you shitless with their poxy Holiday photos? 🤣 Usualy Majorca or Benidorm 🤣 those same eejut types these days, post countless pictures daily on farcebook and suchlike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyG Posted January 5, 2023 Report Share Posted January 5, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, mrsmelly said: Do you remember those ( friends ) years ago that if you went round to theirs, would bore you shitless with their poxy Holiday photos? 🤣 Usualy Majorca or Benidorm 🤣 those same eejut types these days, post countless pictures daily on farcebook and suchlike. I know such people existed, I once worked for a travel agency, not on the frontline, and they had people coming in with photos of their last holiday, rather sad. Edited January 5, 2023 by LadyG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cuthound Posted January 5, 2023 Report Share Posted January 5, 2023 On 04/01/2023 at 10:51, magnetman said: It is remarkable how many selfie-deaths are related to overhead lines on railways. For some reason people want to have a picture of themselves interacting with a wire carrying enough electricity to move a train with 1000 people in it at 80mph. Bizarre. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_selfie-related_injuries_and_deaths One imagines there would be a whole lot more if the wires were even more accessible. That probably explains the 18 signs (one every 2 metres approximately) that recently appeared on a local minor road bridge crossing the WCML near me, warning of high voltage cables below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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