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vintage astern/ahead wheel


EllaGlssp

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Anyone ever seen this before? My boat has an old metal astern / ahead wheel to control the forward and reverse in driving, with a separate revs stick behind. This is alongside the steering wheel. She is currently out of the water at a marina while I work on her, so I’ve not been able to try a cruise yet. Just interested in if anyone has seen something similar, because I’ve not.

 

Either way I love the look of it!

 

14FE5B6C-1DCF-4EA2-9398-86F1B5D32F8C.jpeg

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Gear change wheels, as opposed to levers,  were moderately popular in UK built gearboxes.  Examples in pre-UC series  Gardner boxes (I think), Kelvin boxes ( petrol as well as diesel engines), Glennifer and Brunton ( as fitted to the GUCCCo National and Russel Newbery engines.

 

Picture of a Kelvin one here

3C40517D-0B87-4004-ADDB-BD407CD135E8.jpg

 

Manoeuvering is just as easy as with a single lever control  but changes take a little longer so planning ahead and going at it slowly is always a good idea.  

 

 

 

N

Edited by BEngo
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I doubt that you will get much response here because I would suggest most members have UK boats and narrow boats at that. I think the Barge Association (was DBA) have a forum where you may get more help or juts possibly the YBW forum.

 

I doubt it will be very complex, just chains, rods, threads, lever and gears linking it to the gearbox,  although the alloy casting suggests it might be hydraulic, a bit like hydraulic steering gear.

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

I doubt that you will get much response here because I would suggest most members have UK boats and narrow boats at that. I think the Barge Association (was DBA) have a forum where you may get more help or juts possibly the YBW forum.

 

I doubt it will be very complex, just chains, rods, threads, lever and gears linking it to the gearbox,  although the alloy casting suggests it might be hydraulic, a bit like hydraulic steering gear.

My boat is UK-made wide beam narrow boat, but does have a few dutch barge elements. Thanks for the suggestion!

11 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Gear change wheels, as opposed to levers,  were moderately popular in UK built gearboxes.  Examples in pre-UC series  Gardner boxes (I think), Kelvin boxes ( petrol as well as diesel engines), Glennifer and Brunton ( as fitted to the GUCCCo National and Russel Newbery engines.

 

Picture of a Kelvin one here

3C40517D-0B87-4004-ADDB-BD407CD135E8.jpg

 

Manoeuvering is just as easy as with a single lever control  but changes take a little longer so planning ahead and going at it slowly is always a good idea.  

 

 

 

N

Thanks so much for the info! Yeah, my boat has a gardner engine. I’ve not been able to find anything like it on google so this is great to know, thanks

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"Ahead-Astern" wheels were fairly commonplace on some types of working narrow boats, the most numerous by far being on the fleet of the Grand Union Canal carrying Company (GUCCCo). As BEngo suggests, these would have originally shifted a Brunton box on either a National or a Russel Newbery engine, but was later adapted to air-cooled Petters or Listers.

 

However on a tiller steered boat where the steerer stands in the cabin hatch, the size of such wheels is usually limited to no more than about 6" diameter, otherwise it severely impeded entry and exit from the cabin.

However in your case with a wheel house, and the wheel on the side the size restriction doesn't apply.

 

For whatever reason just a very few working boats sometimes had a much larger wheel, despite the obvious inconvenience.  I can't recall exactly which, but know it included at lease one Samuel Barlow boat, and (I'm fairly certain), on at least one GUCCCo.

I don't know if any still have them - they must make use of the cabin very inconvenient.

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The only one I've seen (with enough detail to see how it worked) was hydraulic.  IIRC there was only about half a turn from neutral to forward half turn back to neutral then half turn to reverse... it was very smooth but in one sense I fail to see the advantage over a leaver.. perhaps I'm just conditioned to expect a leaver....

Edited by Quattrodave
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1 hour ago, EllaGlssp said:

Anyone ever seen this before? My boat has an old metal astern / ahead wheel to control the forward and reverse in driving, with a separate revs stick behind. This is alongside the steering wheel. She is currently out of the water at a marina while I work on her, so I’ve not been able to try a cruise yet. Just interested in if anyone has seen something similar, because I’ve not.

 

Either way I love the look of it!

 

14FE5B6C-1DCF-4EA2-9398-86F1B5D32F8C.jpeg

 

Isn't the wheel simply for steering (via the attached hydraulic hoses) and the 'ahead / astern' simply a gear lever (the lever on the right with a knob on) which engages with the two 'bowden' type cables on the left  and moves the pointer to ahead or astern and the gear selector on the gearbox to the required position ?

 

It looks to me just to be a variant of the normal twin-lever controls.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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2 minutes ago, Quattrodave said:

The only one I've seen (with enough detail to see how it worked) was hydraulic.  IIRC there was only about half a turn from neutral to forward half turn back to neutral then half turn to reverse... it was very smooth but I failed to see the advantage over a leaver...

I would have thought a school leaver would be a suitable operative and quite cheap to maintain.    🙄

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Isn't the wheel simply for steering (via the attached hydraulic hoses) and the 'ahead / astern' simply a gear lever (the lever on the right with a knob on) which engages with the two 'bowden' type cables on the left  and moves the pointer to ahead or astern and the gear selector on the gearbox to the required position ?

 

It looks to me just to be a variant of the normal twin-lever controls.

No.

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6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Isn't the wheel simply for steering (via the attached hydraulic hoses) and the 'ahead / astern' simply a gear lever (the lever on the right with a knob on) which engages with the two 'bowden' type cables on the left  and moves the pointer to ahead or astern and the gear selector on the gearbox to the required position ?

 

It looks to me just to be a variant of the normal twin-lever controls.

 

If the wheel does control the gear selection - where is the 'steering wheel ' ?

The steering wheel is on the right in this picture. This picture was taken facing towards the left hand side of the boat

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Just now, EllaGlssp said:

The steering wheel is on the right in this picture. This picture was taken facing towards the left hand side of the boat

 

Too quick for me - I saw it and deleted that question soon afetr I posted it.

 

It does look to be an interesting, if unnecessarily complex, device.

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2 minutes ago, EllaGlssp said:

The steering wheel is on the right in this picture. This picture was taken facing towards the left hand side of the boat

 

 

Indeed, and I complimented it in Post 5!

 

 

Edited by MtB
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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Isn't the wheel simply for steering (via the attached hydraulic hoses) and the 'ahead / astern' simply a gear lever (the lever on the right with a knob on) which engages with the two 'bowden' type cables on the left  and moves the pointer to ahead or astern and the gear selector on the gearbox to the required position ?

 

It looks to me just to be a variant of the normal twin-lever controls.

 

 

No.

I think when looking straight ahead in that photo you are facing the inside of the boat's left hand side.

You would need to turn 90 degrees right to be looking in the direction of the front of the boat.  That's why the steering wheel to the right hand side of the photo.

 

(Apart from which, presumably the boat owner would be sufficiently familiar with a major control to be able to differentiate between it steering the boat or working th gars?)

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23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Too quick for me - I saw it and deleted that question soon afetr I posted it.

 

It does look to be an interesting, if unnecessarily complex, device.

Sorry - should have been clearer. It’s certainly an unusual system, never seen it before. But I think that’s why I like the boat- a whole lot of character and charm, hopefully not to the detriment of actually driving her!

Edited by EllaGlssp
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Just now, EllaGlssp said:

Sorry - should have pointed it out! It’s certainly an unusual system, never sen it before. But I think that’s why I like the boat- a whole lot of character and charm, hopefully not to the detriment of actually driving her!

 

I'm sure that to start with you may have some 'excitement' but should soon get used to it.

 

Good luck

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46 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

"Ahead-Astern" wheels were fairly commonplace on some types of working narrow boats, the most numerous by far being on the fleet of the Grand Union Canal carrying Company (GUCCCo). As BEngo suggests, these would have originally shifted a Brunton box on either a National or a Russel Newbery engine, but was later adapted to air-cooled Petters or Listers.

 

However on a tiller steered boat where the steerer stands in the cabin hatch, the size of such wheels is usually limited to no more than about 6" diameter, otherwise it severely impeded entry and exit from the cabin.

However in your case with a wheel house, and the wheel on the side the size restriction doesn't apply.

 

For whatever reason just a very few working boats sometimes had a much larger wheel, despite the obvious inconvenience.  I can't recall exactly which, but know it included at lease one Samuel Barlow boat, and (I'm fairly certain), on at least one GUCCCo.

I don't know if any still have them - they must make use of the cabin very inconvenient.

This is great info, thanks! I wonder how on earth this system landed on my boat. I do quite like having something a bit rare 

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I think you will find your forward/reverse control was made by Gardner, the logo looks like it is L and G for "L Gardner and Sons Ltd. Norris and Henty Ltd".  I am no expert on these units  but I believe they operate using oil as a hydraulic fluid.

 

Can you post pictures of the engine and gearbox? It may well be a Gardner 3UC gearbox (quite large and heavy)

 

Update, here is a picture from the Facebook Gardner Oil Engines group.

 

 

317077800_5729415383770835_587771441840652101_n.jpg

Edited by jonesthenuke
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1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

"Snip"

 

However on a tiller steered boat where the steerer stands in the cabin hatch, the size of such wheels is usually limited to no more than about 6" diameter, otherwise it severely impeded entry and exit from the cabin.

However in your case with a wheel house, and the wheel on the side the size restriction doesn't apply.

 

For whatever reason just a very few working boats sometimes had a much larger wheel, despite the obvious inconvenience.  I can't recall exactly which, but know it included at lease one Samuel Barlow boat, and (I'm fairly certain), on at least one GUCCCo.

I don't know if any still have them - they must make use of the cabin very inconvenient.

 

Gort, still has its large gear wheel.

The owner invited me aboard and even though I knew the wheel was there I still managed to bash my head on it! 

The wheel on Gort is original. Mike's first boats as "captain" were Gort and Drake. Mike always maintained he had a groove on top of his head due to the gear wheel.
B & W photo Edward Paget Tomlinson.

 

IMGP4512.JPG

Gort & Drake.jpg

Edited by Ray T
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1 hour ago, jonesthenuke said:

I think you will find your forward/reverse control was made by Gardner, the logo looks like it is L and G for "L Gardner and Sons Ltd. Norris and Henty Ltd".  I am no expert on these units  but I believe they operate using oil as a hydraulic fluid.

 

Can you post pictures of the engine and gearbox? It may well be a Gardner 3UC gearbox (quite large and heavy)

 

Update, here is a picture from the Facebook Gardner Oil Engines group.

 

 

 

Thanks, I spent ages on Google searching by text and by image. So as we can see the two pipes that confirms it is hydraulic so the OP needs to be aware that no or very low oil in the reservoir means no gear changing.

 

I am sure the similar looking ones on the narrow boats are mechanical devices using a worm and nut to convert rotary to linear motion.

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks, I spent ages on Google searching by text and by image. So as we can see the two pipes that confirms it is hydraulic so the OP needs to be aware that no or very low oil in the reservoir means no gear changing.

 

I am sure the similar looking ones on the narrow boats are mechanical devices using a worm and nut to convert rotary to linear motion.

Thanks so much! I’m actually in that group but never saw a post about it. Really appreciate the time

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16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks, I spent ages on Google searching by text and by image. So as we can see the two pipes that confirms it is hydraulic so the OP needs to be aware that no or very low oil in the reservoir means no gear changing.

 

I am sure the similar looking ones on the narrow boats are mechanical devices using a worm and nut to convert rotary to linear motion.

 

 

Can you possibly explain to me what the bowden type cable(s) on the bottom left of the unit do ?

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It does look to be an interesting, if unnecessarily complex, device.

 

It is exactly that.

 

Many years ago my family had an old sea going motor yacht with this arrangement for gear changing. It took about 10 turns to go from neutral to ahead….and 20 turns to go from ahead to astern. It didn’t have an indicator like some of the ones above, just a green neutral light next to the rev counter, just like a motorbike. It was hydraulic and awful to use in confined manoeuvring situations. 

 

I guess this setup was required on the old gearboxes that would normally have a long lever to control it…..where a morse wouldn’t be able to exert enough force. 

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