Newbie looking to buy - Help needed please!

[AbbieNgriff]

Hi Everyone, I am looking to buy a 1984 52ft Sagar Marine Narrow boat to live aboard, which I am hoping to be moored through the winter and cruise a little during the summer. There is so much info out there and i'm doing my best to do the research but it is all a bit overwhelming. I have some details on the boat I am hoping to buy (see picture) but i'm quite unsure on the steel thickness as i have read over-plating is not good and i think the sides are possibly too thin? Also, BMC 1.5 engine - anyone have any thoughts? I have heard they are pretty easy to get hold of parts etc. but can be prone to break down. Any help would be hugely appreciated/ guidance as to what questions i need to ask before i commit to a survey as that alone is going to be around £1000 as its nowhere near a dry dock... 

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, AbbieNgriff said:

Hi Everyone, I am looking to buy a 1984 52ft Sagar Marine Narrow boat to live aboard, which I am hoping to be moored through the winter and cruise a little during the summer. There is so much info out there and i'm doing my best to do the research but it is all a bit overwhelming. I have some details on the boat I am hoping to buy (see picture) but i'm quite unsure on the steel thickness as i have read over-plating is not good and i think the sides are possibly too thin? Also, BMC 1.5 engine - anyone have any thoughts? I have heard they are pretty easy to get hold of parts etc. but can be prone to break down. Any help would be hugely appreciated/ guidance as to what questions i need to ask before i commit to a survey as that alone is going to be around £1000 as its nowhere near a dry dock... 

 

 

A well maintained 1.5 is no more or less likely to break down than a similar engine of similar age, BUT they are getting old and since we lost the sulphur from diesel the main injector pump shaft seal has shown signs of being a potential problem area. However, a pump overhaul would sort it. Back in the day I think the majority of hire boats had BMC 1.5s and 1.8s, a bit like Isuzu more recently. Non-service parts are becoming more difficult to surce in some cases.

 

The hull spec. may well be 10mm base plate, 6mm hull sides, and 4mm cabin side and roof, although the base plate might be 6 or 8mm, bit at best part of 40 years old it is the degree of pitting that you need to worry about, not how thick the steel was originally. Only a surveyor  can give any guidance  to that and even then only where the test is done.

 

You need to ask what the hull spec is although some here may know. You also need to know if it has been re-plated or over plated and if so was the resultant job surveyed.

 

It would be a good idea to find out about thermal insulation. It will probably be expanded polystyrene but may be rockwool/glass fiber or nothing at all - nothing is not good for winter liveaboards. Nothing about heating I see, that is also important for winter living aboard.

 

If you post a link to the sales site you may get more advice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PD1964]

I believe it may be this one, looks a tidy well kept boat.

https://www.instagram.com/p/B3UJZ4jAYwA/?hl=en

[Alan de Enfield]

Maybe I'm behind the times, but £34,000 for an (almost) 40 years old 'economy-built' narrow boat seems to be very high.

[booke23]

@Alan de Enfield I agree, £34,000 is very high for a 40 year old overplated boat. 

 

I see the interior is in the traditional 'London White' of a refurbed old boat. Very bad value for money.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by booke23

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, booke23 said:

I agree, £34,000 is very high for a 40 year old overplated boat. But it's actually £40,000 on this much more recent facebook advert https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/482517957187576/ 

 

I see the interior is in the traditional 'London White' of a refurbed old boat. Very bad value for money.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree. It looks like a £10k boat that had a tonne of money spent fitting a new interior to add value, for resale. I think the OP is very wise to be focussing on the hull condition rather tan being wowed by a new trendy fit-out. 

 

A BMC engine will be old but is a well regarded power unit. 

[Skeg]

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm inclined to agree. It looks like a £10k boat that had a tonne of money spent fitting a new interior to add value, for resale. I think the OP is very wise to be focussing on the hull condition rather tan being wowed by a new trendy fit-out. 

 

A BMC engine will be old but is a well regarded power unit. 

A quick search on Google shows it being sold in 2019 and there is a advert showing it for sale at Aqueduct Brokerage. No mention of overplating on the Aqueduct ad. The asking price is crazy, cosmetically it looks OK but I wonder why it’s up for sale again so quickly after the previous sale. There are better boats to be had for that money.

[Tony Brooks]

18 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

I see the interior is in the traditional 'London White' of a refurbed old boat. Very bad value for money.

 

My thoughts exactly, especially as there seems to be no photos of the engine are etc. I would be very wary.  I fear all bling and little substance, but it would need a very knowledgeable friend or a surveyor to find out for sure.

[booke23]

My sincere apologies to the forum.....I linked the wrong boat in my previous post. I've edited it out. 

 

This is the boat in question https://aqueductmarina.co.uk/smudgie-3/. Very little detail and my opinion still stands. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by booke23

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, booke23 said:

My sincere apologies to the forum.....I linked the wrong boat in my previous post. I've edited it out. 

 

This is the boat in question https://aqueductmarina.co.uk/smudgie-3/. Very little detail and my opinion still stands. 

 

I   suspect there is no detail because it is no longer on brokerage, and that matchboarding on the cabin side could easily have been skinned with ply and painted since the Aquaduct photo was taken. Unless we get a lot more detail from an up to date add my opinion also stands. Be very wary, silk purses and all that.

[AbbieNgriff]

Thanks everyone for all your responses, I wasn’t expecting so many so quickly! Also, your detective skills are impeccable might I add...

 

correct the boat is that from the Facebook post, I have been to see the boat and spoken to the owner at length. She is selling due to her job and wanting to relocate further north (on land). I know this lifestyle isn’t for everyone so I can understand the quick turnaround. Additionally, the owner would be selling the boat fully furnished which will also be adding to the cost (and appeal). 
 

There was a survey completed in 2019 and I have asked for the details for reference so hopefully might be able to provide more info shortly on the plating. Generally speaking though, It seems as though the consensus is £40k is steep for the age of the boat? I have been looking for quite a while now and haven’t found many in the size and aesthetic i would like as yet. I know I can refurb myself but in your experience is this not really experience due to needing specialists/ bespoke fittings to complete?

 

Again thanks All!

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, AbbieNgriff said:

I know I can refurb myself but in your experience is this not really experience due to needing specialists/ bespoke fittings to complete?

 

I can't think of any "bespoke" fittings used on most narrow boats, they are normally off the shelf items, be it at a cost. You will probably need a suitably qualified professional for any gas work (Gassafe endorsed LPG & marine) because you intend to live aboard. You might also need professional help with electrics but not just any electrician. House  electricians tend to be useless on 12V DC and boats. A proper inland marine electrician is best but an old car electrician is arguably second best.

 

The rest will depend on how keen and experienced you are with DIY around the home. What still needs doing to complete the boat? I don't like the sound of that at the price quoted.

 

 

[booke23]

1 hour ago, AbbieNgriff said:

Thanks everyone for all your responses, I wasn’t expecting so many so quickly! Also, your detective skills are impeccable might I add...

 

correct the boat is that from the Facebook post, I have been to see the boat and spoken to the owner at length. She is selling due to her job and wanting to relocate further north (on land). I know this lifestyle isn’t for everyone so I can understand the quick turnaround. Additionally, the owner would be selling the boat fully furnished which will also be adding to the cost (and appeal). 
 

There was a survey completed in 2019 and I have asked for the details for reference so hopefully might be able to provide more info shortly on the plating. Generally speaking though, It seems as though the consensus is £40k is steep for the age of the boat? I have been looking for quite a while now and haven’t found many in the size and aesthetic i would like as yet. I know I can refurb myself but in your experience is this not really experience due to needing specialists/ bespoke fittings to complete?

 

Again thanks All!

 

Oh it is the boat in the facebook post? The reason I doubted myself is that is advertised as a 54ft boat whereas it's listed as a 52ft boat on the photo of the details you posted. I guess a typo on facebook?

 

Don't let the fact that it is fully 'furnished' sway you. Pretty much all narrowboats are as they have built in furniture generally.

 

A quick look at the major brokers websites shows what you can get.....Rugby boats sold a1995 42' boat for £42k not that long ago, or have a look at this 2004 boat they sold for £29,950....granted smaller at 35ft but if it's just you probably the sort of boat you could live on if you install a multifuel stove. That's 20 years newer and £10k less than the boat you are looking at. I know these boats are both sold but I just wanted to give you examples of what is achievable if you are patient and fussy. I'm sorry to say the boat you are looking at is grossly overpriced at £40,000 

 

A rule of thumb with boat renovation is that it will take 3 times as long and cost 3 times the price you estimate. 

Edited December 29, 2022 by booke23

[AbbieNgriff]

9 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I can't think of any "bespoke" fittings used on most narrow boats, they are normally off the shelf items, be it at a cost. You will probably need a suitably qualified professional for any gas work (Gassafe endorsed LPG & marine) because you intend to live aboard. You might also need professional help with electrics but not just any electrician. House  electricians tend to be useless on 12V DC and boats. A proper inland marine electrician is best but an old car electrician is arguably second best.

 

The rest will depend on how keen and experienced you are with DIY around the home. What still needs doing to complete the boat? I don't like the sound of that at the price quoted.

 

 

This particular boat doesn’t really need much except I would probably look to add some storage as there is practically none (less than usual), stove might want relocating to allow for a table? I suppose I am trying to work out if I can afford to buy a less modern (but younger) boat and refurb her or if I need one mostly complete.

 

Thanks again for your advise, it’s been really helpful.

8 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

Oh it is the boat in the facebook post? The reason I doubted myself is that is advertised as a 54ft boat whereas it's listed as a 52ft boat on the photo of the details you posted. I guess a typo on facebook?

 

Don't let the fact that it is fully 'furnished' sway you. Pretty much all narrowboats are as they have built in furniture generally.

 

A quick look at the major brokers websites shows what you can get.....Rugby boats sold a1995 42' boat for £42k not that long ago, or have a look at this 2004 boat they sold for £29,950....granted smaller at 35ft but if it's just you probably the sort of boat you could live on if you install a multifuel stove. That's 20 years newer and £10k less than the boat you are looking at. I know these boats are both sold but I just wanted to give you examples of what is achievable if you are patient and fussy. I'm sorry to say the boat you are looking at is grossly overpriced at £40,000 

 

A rule of thumb with boat renovation is that it will take 3 times as long and cost 3 times the price you estimate. 

Thank you, I think I really needed some guidance on the pricing, I thought I was getting a bargain here but clearly not!

[MtB]

1 hour ago, AbbieNgriff said:

Thank you, I think I really needed some guidance on the pricing, I thought I was getting a bargain here but clearly not!

 

One of the reasons this boat is expensive is the length. It's 'just right' and what everybody wants. I sold a much younger and better 68ft boat recently for £36k. Had I shortened it by 12ft I could have possibly added £20k to the value! 

 

My point is, there is a huge spike in demand for boats in the 50ft-57ft bracket as newbies tend to want a 'go anywhere' boat and dismiss longer boats. (There are a couple of northern canals where boats bigger than about 58ft don't fit.) When I bought the 68ft boat 15 years previously I also drove a hard bargain as it had languished on the market unsold for ages, again in my opinion, due to the length. I have to admit I too was reluctant to buy a longer boat than I initially wanted but it was SUCH a nice boat for so little money that I went for it.

 

So I suggest you have a look at longer boats. They tend to cost less because they are much harder to sell, and (IMO) make better liveaboards. 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

Sagar should be a good shell when it was new but this is old. Its way too dear. Its been tarted up inside to sell as a London liveaboard and in my opinion ruined. Boat prices are on the wane now till spring, you can do better with a bit of patience.

[John Brightley]

On 29/12/2022 at 14:48, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe I'm behind the times, but £34,000 for an (almost) 40 years old 'economy-built' narrow boat seems to be very high.

It's a bit unfair to call it an 'economy-built' boat as Sagar were one of the best-regarded builders of the 1980's.

On 29/12/2022 at 21:40, AbbieNgriff said:

There was a survey completed in 2019 and I have asked for the details for reference 

You should be wary of any information on a 2019 survey commissioned by someone else. Most people on this forum would recommend you commission a survey yourself before putting any money down on the purchase.

[cheesegas]

One note about surveys is that there is no comeback if the surveyors misses stuff. After my experience with surveyors, it's difficult to find one who actually knows enough about everything on a boat to flag up issues. A marine mechanic is probably a better option, and have a surveyor do a hull only survey.

 

On the boat I have now, I naively had a full survey done and then had a good look over myself for a whole day before submitting an offer. Totally pointless having him do anything other than the hull, he missed a leaking back door and rotted doorframe, missing engine mount leg (come loose and was sat in the bilge), seized greaser, missing alternator belt tensioner, broken alternator cable...

 

He did however pick up on the gas grill being difficult to light. Important stuff. Oh, and a hole in the exhaust which wasn't exactly hard to spot as the engine bay was covered in soot.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, cheesegas said:

One note about surveys is that there is no comeback if the surveyors misses stuff. After my experience with surveyors, it's difficult to find one who actually knows enough about everything on a boat to flag up issues. A marine mechanic is probably a better option, and have a surveyor do a hull only survey.

 

On the boat I have now, I naively had a full survey done and then had a good look over myself for a whole day before submitting an offer. Totally pointless having him do anything other than the hull, he missed a leaking back door and rotted doorframe, missing engine mount leg (come loose and was sat in the bilge), seized greaser, missing alternator belt tensioner, broken alternator cable...

 

He did however pick up on the gas grill being difficult to light. Important stuff. Oh, and a hole in the exhaust which wasn't exactly hard to spot as the engine bay was covered in soot.

 

Agree with all this.

 

The main benefits of a survey appear to me to be twofold.

 

1) Psychological. Someone new to narrowboats gets someone with more (but still gappy) knowledge than themselves to point out the obvious. Things that are "obvious" to experienced boaters often aren't to the total newbie. Commonly and disparagingly known as "hand-holding". 

 

2) Insurance. If buying a boat older than 25 years, insurance companies usually insist on a survey before issuing a comprehensive policy. So if the boater wants comprehensive insurance, a survey cannot be avoided. 

 

 

[enigmatic]

The bit that confuses me is "6mm sides (including overplating)".

 

Do they mean the sides were originally 6mm and some parts of it have a 6mm overplate/replate, or that the original 6mm hull got pitted and someone patched it with the thinnest possible bit of steel?

 

£35k might have been OK in current inflated market if the hull condition matched the lovely cosmetics, asking an extra £5k on top of that sounds cheeky

 

 

 

On 01/01/2023 at 11:14, cheesegas said:

One note about surveys is that there is no comeback if the surveyors misses stuff. After my experience with surveyors, it's difficult to find one who actually knows enough about everything on a boat to flag up issues. A marine mechanic is probably a better option, and have a surveyor do a hull only survey.

 

On the boat I have now, I naively had a full survey done and then had a good look over myself for a whole day before submitting an offer. Totally pointless having him do anything other than the hull, he missed a leaking back door and rotted doorframe, missing engine mount leg (come loose and was sat in the bilge), seized greaser, missing alternator belt tensioner, broken alternator cable...

 

He did however pick up on the gas grill being difficult to light. Important stuff. Oh, and a hole in the exhaust which wasn't exactly hard to spot as the engine bay was covered in soot.

Sounds like you got a particularly bad surveyor. Spotting issues with stuff like the engine mounts for the benefit of the average person that doesn't know about engine mounts and that the alternator doesn't actually charge is what surveyors are for...

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, enigmatic said:

The bit that confuses me is "6mm sides (including overplating)".

 

When a boat is overplated the original (remaining) thickness is no longer taken into account. Any measurement given is the thickness of the overplate only.

[Richard10002]

16 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The bit that confuses me is "6mm sides (including overplating)".

 

Do they mean the sides were originally 6mm and some parts of it have a 6mm overplate/replate, or that the original 6mm hull got pitted and someone patched it with the thinnest possible bit of steel?

 

Not sure how good these ultrasound things are but, unless the gizmo they use for measuring the thickness of the steel can differentiate the plate and the original, it will be total thickness, including plating.

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Not sure how good these ultrasound things are but, unless the gizmo they use for measuring the thickness of the steel can differentiate the plate and the original, it will be total thickness, including plating.

I would have expected it to see the back surface of the overplate other than on a weld.

 

1 minute ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Not sure how good these ultrasound things are but, unless the gizmo they use for measuring the thickness of the steel can differentiate the plate and the original, it will be total thickness, including plating.

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Not sure how good these ultrasound things are but, unless the gizmo they use for measuring the thickness of the steel can differentiate the plate and the original, it will be total thickness, including plating.

 

20 odd years ago they were good enough to see my uxter plate was in fact made of two sheets of steel. That was an original build "feature", not overplate.

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Not sure how good these ultrasound things are but, unless the gizmo they use for measuring the thickness of the steel can differentiate the plate and the original, it will be total thickness, including plating.

Having checked some of my 1936 plating with a cheap ultrasound gizmo it couldn't differentiate between areas of open plating and areas where the plate was riveted to internal angle framing, so I suspect the reading is to the back face of the front plate. 

In the case of overplating if there is even the slightest gap between the new and old plating I would expect little of the signal to get through into the lower layer (let alone back again), and so the reading you get will relate to the outermost plating.

For the same reason you can get a false reading if there are slag inclusions within the plate.