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Definitive paperwork required to purchase a Widebeam for safety compliance


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23 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

 

The question was "There is no requirement for , say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use. Do You Agree?"

 

Your reply was "No", (i.e. you dont agree)

 

Thus, you seemed to be saying that:

 

"There is a requirement for, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use".

 

 

Despite Alan's* lightning response to my previous post, (with a very "selective" quote), the silence in response to this one is deafening. 

 

* de Enfield :) 

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25 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

Despite Alan's* lightning response to my previous post, (with a very "selective" quote), the silence in response to this one is deafening. 

 

* de Enfield :) 

 

Except he did respond and explained.

 

He said there is no (such) requirement so no.

 

However the boat when presented for resale must still comply with the regulations in force at the time of building and CE marking. If any modifications have been done they must meet the requirements that were in force when the boat was first built.

 

Edited to add, what I am unclear about is if you (say) fit another engine does the new engine have to comply with the regs at the time of fitting or those when the boat was first built.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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The RCR section 43 says that a major modification of engine or craft requires a new assessment / Declaration of Conformity / CE marking. It doesn’t say what major means but it is similar to other directives which require new CE marking where any modifications have created new hazard not considered in the original assessment.

 


 


 

Edited by PaulD
Correction section number
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Edited to add, what I am unclear about is if you (say) fit another engine does the new engine have to comply with the regs at the time of fitting or those when the boat was first built.

And if the new engine needs to be assessed against the standards current at its date of installation, is it just the engine that needs a PCA or does the whole boat have to be reassessed against the latest standards?

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Just now, PaulD said:

The RCR section 35 says that a major modification of engine or craft requires a new assessment / Declaration of Conformity / CE marking. It doesn’t say what major means but it is similar to other directives which require new CE marking where any modifications have created new hazard not considered in the original assessment.

 


 


 

 

 

 

They are defined in several places within the directive :

There is a 'major modification' which is defined as affecting any of the features of the boat which would affect the operators safety (example Stability, Fuel system, electrics and gas systems)

A engine modification is defined as a change of fuel (say, a petrol enine to a diesel engine) , a change of propulsion method and a change in engine size by more than 15%, Only engines on the 'approved list' (for emissions and noise levels can be used)

 

Have a look at paras 6,7,8,& 9 in the RCD definitons.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And if the new engine needs to be assessed against the standards current at its date of installation, is it just the engine that needs a PCA or does the whole boat have to be reassessed against the latest standards?

Laws are almost never retrospective for obvious legal reasons; a boat may well have to meet the rules which were valid when it was built, but almost certainly not the latest ones.

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2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And if the new engine needs to be assessed against the standards current at its date of installation, is it just the engine that needs a PCA or does the whole boat have to be reassessed against the latest standards?

 

As I read it, since the 2015 version of the RCD, a replacement engine can only be used from the 'approved list' complying with the latest emmission and noise levels.

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Laws are almost never retrospective for obvious legal reasons; a boat may well have to meet the rules which were valid when it was built, but almost certainly not the latest ones.

 

So if you take a new car and fit it with an old engine it is not required to meet the MOT emission test current today ?

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As I read it, since the 2015 version of the RCD, a replacement engine can only be used from the 'approved list' complying with the latest emmission and noise levels.

 

So if you take a new car and fit it with an old engine it is not required to meet the MOT emission test current today ?

The car -- including the engine -- is required to meet the standards valid when it was built, like I said. Don't  forget that MoT emissions tests don't check against the manufacturers spec for a particular model (e.g. EURO6) because this is impossible in practice, they use much looser but easier to measure specs.

 

It's also possible that the new engine may have to meet regulations tighter than when the car was built if that's what the "new engine" rules say, like the RCD case you quoted.

 

What they can't do is retrospectively change the rules that apply to the rest of the boat (or car).

Edited by IanD
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12 minutes ago, IanD said:

The car is required to meet the standards valid when it was built, like I said. MoT emissions tests don't check against the manufacturers spec for a particular model because this is impossible, they use looser but easier to measure specs.

 

It's also possible that the new engine may have to meet regulations tighter than when the car was built if that's what the rules say, like the RCD case you quoted.

 

What they can't do is retrospectively change the rules that apply to the rest of the boat.

 

The RCD doesn't demand inspection to the manufacturers figures, but specifies the figures that, unless achieved will result in that manufacturers engine being banned from use.

I am not suggesting that because an alternative engine is fitted (bigger / heavier/ different fuel / poorer emmissione etc) that the whole boat is reassessed to the latest standards. Just that the engine alone must meet the latest standards.

 

Having said that, if there is a change in fuel type I'd GUESS that it may require changes to the fuel supply system and subject to certification.

 

 

Examples of post 2016 requirements (there are other tables for noise etc)

 

 

Exhaust Emissions Extract.png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And if the new engine needs to be assessed against the standards current at its date of installation, is it just the engine that needs a PCA or does the whole boat have to be reassessed against the latest standards?

The whole boat would have to be  assessed to the standards at the time of the assessment .

So it's best not to make any significant changes .

I would say fitting a new engine using the same fuel type and with similar power is not a significant change.

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I would say fitting a new engine using the same fuel type and with similar power is not a significant change.

 

Indeed, and the RCD specifically states that changing an engine for one from the same manufacturers'family' of engines (assuming it still falls within the emission standards and is not more than 15% bigger) does not require a PCA

 

‘engine family’ means the manufacturer’s grouping of engines which, through their design, have similar exhaust or noise emission characteristics;

 

So you can subsitute (say) an Isuzu 45hp engine for a 40hp one, from the same family, but you cannot substitute the 40hp for a 48hp engine even if from the same family, as it then becomes a major engine modification and would require re-certifying to assess if the hull etc is structurally strong enough to take the bigger engine weight and power.

 

‘major engine modification’ means the modification of a propulsion engine which could potentially cause the engine to exceed the emission limits set out in Part B of Annex I or increases the rated power of the engine by more than 15 %;

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Indeed, and the RCD specifically states that changing an engine for one from the same manufacturers'family' of engines (assuming it still falls within the emission standards and is not more than 15% bigger) does not require a PCA

 

‘engine family’ means the manufacturer’s grouping of engines which, through their design, have similar exhaust or noise emission characteristics;

 

So you can subsitute (say) an Isuzu 45hp engine for a 40hp one, from the same family, but you cannot substitute the 40hp for a 48hp engine even if from the same family, as it then becomes a major engine modification and would require re-certifying to assess if the hull etc is structurally strong enough to take the bigger engine weight and power.

 

‘major engine modification’ means the modification of a propulsion engine which could potentially cause the engine to exceed the emission limits set out in Part B of Annex I or increases the rated power of the engine by more than 15 %;

 

Even changing the engine to a "not-a-similar-replacement" one should not mean that any non-engine-related parts of the boat have to meet the latest standards (e.g. buoyancy), the recertification is to make sure that the new engine hasn't (for example) destabilised the boat or risks hull integrity -- as you say.

 

The interesting question is -- which set of standards does the new bigger (or different) engine have to meet? Logically it should be those in force when the boat was built to avoid a "dual standards" problem in future...

 

And then there's the question of whose problem it really is (or if it's really a problem at all in practice...) if a boat doesn't have the documentation to show it met the standards when it was built, because it seems that the attitude to such documentation was far more lax in the past, many boats probably never had such documents regardless of what the official position was, and builders seemed to tick the "it complies" boxes even for boats which didn't. Never mind the question of who is actually even going to bother enforcing all this... 😉

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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

The interesting question is -- which set of standards does the new bigger (or different) engine have to meet? Logically it should be those in force when the boat was built to avoid a "dual standards" problem in future...

 

I would suggest that the PCA will be done under the latest issue of the standards.

 

 

For me it is not a matter of 'who cares about the RCD' or who enforces the law, but more (going back to the OPs question) "what paperwork should be provided with a new or secondhand boat to minimise the risks of purchase and a (possible) future inability to resell".

 

A reasonable enough question I think.

 

If the questioner is given the answers they can then determine how risk averse they wish to be and either go with the "who cares anyway, you will not be caught" faction, or decide that they "wish to be legal and ensure that they can sell with the minimum of fuss if the need arises"

 

I am not stood on a soap-box pontificating that "you must do this or the sky will fall in and you'll all die". I am simply providing answers to the questions.

 

I know the risks & have purchased boats without the correct paperwork, but that does not affect what the law say you must have.

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23 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

 

The interesting question is -- which set of standards does the new bigger (or different) engine have to meet? Logically it should be those in force when the boat was built to avoid a "dual standards" problem in future...

 

It has to meet the standards at the time of the assessment.

 

In practice I suspect no one has ever had am assessment completed after a significant  engine change .

......Unless someone knows otherwise .

 

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9 minutes ago, MartynG said:

It has to meet the standards at the time of the assessment.

 

In practice I suspect no one has ever had am assessment completed after a significant  engine change .

......Unless someone knows otherwise .

 

You state that as if it's a fact -- is it a fact or your opinion? (serious question)

 

I'd also be surprised if anyone who has installed a new "non-direct-replacement" engine on a narrowboat (ot the canals) has ever bothered to pay for a full reassessment of the boat -- is there any actual example?

 

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I would suggest that the PCA will be done under the latest issue of the standards.

 

 

For me it is not a matter of 'who cares about the RCD' or who enforces the law, but more (going back to the OPs question) "what paperwork should be provided with a new or secondhand boat to minimise the risks of purchase and a (possible) future inability to resell".

 

A reasonable enough question I think.

 

If the questioner is given the answers they can then determine how risk averse they wish to be and either go with the "who cares anyway, you will not be caught" faction, or decide that they "wish to be legal and ensure that they can sell with the minimum of fuss if the need arises"

 

I am not stood on a soap-box pontificating that "you must do this or the sky will fall in and you'll all die". I am simply providing answers to the questions.

 

I know the risks & have purchased boats without the correct paperwork, but that does not affect what the law say you must have.

Do you mean for the entire boat or just the new engine -- and same question as above, do you have actual written proof or is it your opinion? (serious question again)

 

In discussions like this it's *really* important to distinguish between "I would suggest..." or "I believe that..." and "this is what the written rules actually say" -- *and* that they actually apply to the case under discussion... 🙂

 

(and also whether documentation/certification rules for builders selling a new boat still apply in practice to somebody reselling the same boat 20 years later)

Edited by IanD
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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Do you mean for the entire boat or just the new engine -- and same question as above, do you have actual written proof or is it your opinion? (serious question again)

 

In discussions like this it's *really* important to distinguish between "I would suggest..." or "I believe that..." and "this is what the written rules actually say" -- *and* that they actually apply to the case under discussion...

 

 

Maybe read the post again ..................

 

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I would suggest that the PCA will be done under the latest issue of the standards.

 

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13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Maybe read the post again ..................

 

 

Which is exactly why I posted what I did.

 

There's an awful lot of "I suggest..." or "I think..." going on here, or clipping and posting sections of regulations which apply to one case (e.g. new boat supply) but where either it's not clear whether they apply to boat modifications (and secondhand sales, direct or through a broker) or not, or where the regulations actually say nothing about this case.

 

If there was something clearly stated in the regulations -- complete with a definitive description of under exactly what circumstances it does or doesn't apply -- then I suspect we'd have seen it by now; lacking this, most of what is being posted looks like educated guesswork, or anecdote (often of a completely different case like Alan's catamaran), or a combination of the two.

 

The regulations look like a badly-written, possibly illogical, and certainly not comprehensively defined mess of rules which have built up over the years, so nobody's actually sure *what* the rules are in all cases, especially for older and secondhand boats. A bit like UK law in general, then... 😞

Edited by IanD
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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

You state that as if it's a fact -- is it a fact or your opinion? (serious question)

Do you mean for the entire boat or just the new engine -- and same question as above, do you have actual written proof or is it your opinion? (serioud question again)

Certainly from the point of view of a boat that is to be imported  a fresh compliance with the RCR is required 

image.png.785fda1c6998709078bd7a0a2325e467.png

The above noted requirement for a ''new'' conformity assessment   together with VAT  to be applied has  effectively stopped the import of used boats from the EU into the UK

This does not apply to a boat already in the UK and to remain in the UK for which there is no requirement for the boat to remain in compliance unless a significant modification has been made.

 

As for the ''new'' compliance to current standards the RCR and UKCA marking are referenced which can only be to current standards as I can see no suggestion of allowance for age as  is the case with a car MOT for example. (Similarly  and although not relevant except to establish a principle the BSS makes no allowances for age of the boat).

 

Whether this is  a real issue in practice  is likely to be boat specific. But emissions will be the killer when considering an older boat.

 

I would doubt whether any narrowboat has undergone a PCA   as a used boat sold in the UK and to remain in the UK does not require it.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

The regulations look like a badly-written, possibly illogical, and certainly not comprehensively defined mess of rules which have built up over the years, so nobody's actually sure *what* the rules are in all cases, especially for older and secondhand boats. A bit like UK law in general, then... 😞

The original purpose of European Directives which set standards for manufactured products of all types was to provide a 'level playing field' for manufacturers and importers in different EU countries, so that a single set of standards applied across the EU and replaced previous national standards (where there were any). This was intended to make life simpler for manufactures, and in particular to give the manufacturers in the newer less developed member countries a fair chance in competing with their more established neighbours.  The process of writing the actual standards ended up in a haggle between the countries and industry representatives involved, so the resulting standards were never going to satisfy everybody. And all sorts of environmental and social objectives got added in too. And then there was the fact of some countries being more assiduous than others at translating the EU Directives into national law, and then in putting regulatory and enforcement processes in place.

The whole process was probably reasonable for goods built in large quantities and used across the EU. And aimed very much at the manufacture, import and first sale of new goods.

But all rather over the top for local niche markets, or for products which are frequently sold on to subsequent users, such as narrow boats.

Edited by David Mack
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1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Certainly from the point of view of a boat that is to be imported  a fresh compliance with the RCR is required 

image.png.785fda1c6998709078bd7a0a2325e467.png

The above noted requirement for a ''new'' conformity assessment   together with VAT  to be applied has  effectively stopped the import of used boats from the EU into the UK

This does not apply to a boat already in the UK and to remain in the UK for which there is no requirement for the boat to remain in compliance unless a significant modification has been made.

 

As for the ''new'' compliance to current standards the RCR and UKCA marking are referenced which can only be to current standards as I can see no suggestion of allowance for age as  is the case with a car MOT for example. (Similarly  and although not relevant except to establish a principle the BSS makes no allowances for age of the boat).

 

Whether this is  a real issue in practice  is likely to be boat specific. But emissions will be the killer when considering an older boat.

 

I would doubt whether any narrowboat has undergone a PCA   as a used boat sold in the UK and to remain in the UK does not require it.

 

 

 

 

But we're not talking about importing boats from the EU here, we're talking about reselling secondhand boats already in the UK.

 

No used car has to meet current standards for new car safety or emissions, only the ones which were in force when it was new. The same applies to modifications made to those used cars. I'd be astounded if the legal position was any different for canal boats.

 

This is the key point of the entire discussion. There's no point quoting regulations which don't apply in this case, such as import rules or rules which only apply to post-2015 boats.

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18 minutes ago, IanD said:

But we're not talking about importing boats from the EU here, we're talking about reselling secondhand boats already in the UK.

 

No used car has to meet current standards for new car safety or emissions, only the ones which were in force when it was new. The same applies to modifications made to those used cars. I'd be astounded if the legal position was any different for canal boats.

 

This is the key point of the entire discussion. There's no point quoting regulations which don't apply in this case, such as import rules or rules which only apply to post-2015 boats.

You tell me then which rules do apply.

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24 minutes ago, MartynG said:

You tell me then which rules do apply.

I don't know, and I'm not sure that anyone else does either. But endlessly quoting cases or rules which clearly don't apply to the case under discussion (secondhand UK canal boats) is pointless and just adds to the confusion... 😞

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1 minute ago, IanD said:

I don't know, and I'm not sure that anyone else does either. But endlessly quoting cases or rules which clearly don't apply to the case under discussion (secondhand UK canal boats) is pointless and just adds to the confusion... 😞

No one seems to understand the RCR are  about the import /export of boats and the sale of new boats  built in the UK

The rules regarding import situation and post construction assessment  apply equally to an imported boat and a UK boat that has been significantly modified.

For the sale of a boat already in the UK that has not been significantly modified  and is for continued UK use the RCR do not apply. 

 

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5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

No one seems to understand the RCR are  about the import /export of boats and the sale of new boats  built in the UK

The rules regarding import situation and post construction assessment  apply equally to an imported boat and a UK boat that has been significantly modified.

For the sale of a boat already in the UK that has not been significantly modified  and is for continued UK use the RCR do not apply. 

 

Well other people, including the BMF (who could be expected to know), think the RCR does apply to second hand boat sales.

So do you have definitive proof of your statement or is it your opinion?

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28 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

Well other people, including the BMF (who could be expected to know), think the RCR does apply to second hand boat sales.

So do you have definitive proof of your statement or is it your opinion?

image.png.d3d14857e24728389980a27b7decce6e.png

https://www.rya.org.uk/news/collaboration-between-leading-leisure-marine-associations

 

,

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