Definitive paperwork required to purchase a Widebeam for safety compliance

[Barneyp]

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Neither of which addresses the question asked in the OP, which was:

 

"Is there one source of truth to the above please.

I do not want to buy a boat without the correct paperwork.

 

1. Boat less than 5 years old

2. Boat older than 5 years

3. Converted Sailaway"

 

And I maintain the answer to this question is "no" to all of 1, 2 and 3, there is no one source of truth to "the above".

 

("The above" possibly referring to the different question asked in the thread title).

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you, there is no one definitive source to answer the OP's question 

 

But this is a discussion forum, the thread is 5 pages long and the OP last posted back on page 1. The discussion has moved on because that's how discussions/conversations work.

 

[Peanut]

The RYA legal advice is that there is little statutory protection when buying a boat from a private seller or from a broker acting on behalf of a private seller, when not by way of trade.

Caveat emptor applies, and a buyer should check that the seller has legal title to the vessel, that if it falls under the RCD/RCR, then the documentation is in place, and that there are no mortgages or liens  secured on the boat.

It is your problem establishing this, there is no one source of definitive information.

You could join the RYA, who will be able to assist you.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Peanut said:

Caveat emptor applies, and a buyer should check that the seller has legal title to the vessel, that if it falls under the RCD/RCR, then the documentation is in place, and that there are no mortgages or liens  secured on the boat.

 

All good advice, but reading between the lines I think the OP actually wants to know what the RCD 'documentation' you mention actually comprises. I'd be interested too.

 

Part of it will be the big fat "User Manual" but what else should one be looking for? Is there a paper "RCD Certificate" or anything? 

[Peanut]

I believe there should be a CE mark along with the HIN or what it has now become, and an original builders Certificate of Conformity.  Given that much of it is a Cottage Industry, not far removed from blacksmithing, I doubt if many boats will have had all or any of these. Not to say they shouldn't, just may not.  It might not matter it the real world, but could give grounds for a reduction in price.  However  as new boats are costing six figures, it might become more relevant. Who would buy a house without proper paperwork. There is a lot of bear tokens at stake.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

Part of it will be the big fat "User Manual" but what else should one be looking for? Is there a paper "RCD Certificate" or anything? 

 

You seem to be very forthright & have very strong feelings about a subject in which you have very little knowledge - even when the information has been provided for your edification mulitple times.

 

 

Yes - there is a paper certificate (of which I posted a copy of one of mine earlier in the thread). "Leisure Boats Certificate of Compliance" (on page 2)

 

But - the 'correct ships papers' include much more than just the RCD manual and certificate of compliance. I answered the actual question the OP was asking & listed all the 'normally' required documents on page 1 - long before all this malarky on the RCD took over the thread.

[David Mack]

48 minutes ago, Peanut said:

Who would buy a house without proper paperwork.

Quite common actually. When we came to sell my late father's retirement bungalow the buyer's solicitors asked for certificates relating to the patio doors and replacement gas boiler which had been installed before my father bought the place some 5 years earlier, confirming that all the required Building Regulations permissions were in place. These hadn't come up as an issue when my father bought, and we didn't have any paperwork. In the end we had to pay a very modest sum (about £11 I recall) for an indemnity policy which would pay out to the new owner if the local authority came chasing her for a breach of the rules.

And the sale went through.

I can only conclude that the modest premium meant the insurance company was pretty confident the LA would never come knocking. 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Quite common actually. When we came to sell my late father's retirement bungalow the buyer's solicitors asked for certificates relating to the patio doors and replacement gas boiler which had been installed before my father bought the place some 5 years earlier, confirming that all the required Building Regulations permissions were in place. These hadn't come up as an issue when my father bought, and we didn't have any paperwork. In the end we had to pay a very modest sum (about £11 I recall) for an indemnity policy which would pay out to the new owner if the local authority came chasing her for a breach of the rules.

And the sale went through.

I can only conclude that the modest premium meant the insurance company was pretty confident the LA would never come knocking. 

 

 

Quite agree. Just visit any property auction room and see it happening, especially right at the end of the day. People will buy houses based on the photo & description in the auction catalogue and nothing more if the price is low enough. And it sometimes is when no-one else in the room wants it. 

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You seem to be very forthright & have very strong feelings about a subject in which you have very little knowledge - even when the information has been provided for your edification mulitple times.

 

You are very easily wound up over this aren't you? 

[Peanut]

I suppose it depends in part on how material the defect is to the purchase, and the cost to remedy.

The window and boiler may be satisfactory, but no proof of title could turn out catastrophic.

The problem with the RCD/RCR is if it turns out to be a legal requirement then the contract would be avoidable as as it would be a Statutory fault. The remedy would most likely be a Post Construction Assessment, to bring it into line.

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Quite agree. Just visit any property auction room and see it happening, especially right at the end of the day. People will buy houses based on the photo & description in the auction catalogue and nothing more if the price is low enough. And it sometimes is when no-one else in the room wants it. 

 

You are very easily wound up over this aren't you? 

 

No.I have pointed out a 'million times' I have no issue with buying or selling a boat without an RCD / RCR (and have bought a couple).

 

I have not said that any boat in the UK without an RCD must be tested for compliance.

 

I repeat many times extracts  from the directives which are apparently ignored as the same question appears on the next page.

 

 

My repeated postings on the subject are as a balance to those saying (effectively) "we don't worry about paperwork on the canals, and even if what you do is illegal you'll never be caught"

 

Many posters seem to be stuck on the 2017 version of the directive and have not taken the trouble to source and read the later versions and guidance documents from the UK Government - the last issue being just a matter of weeks ago (November 2022)

They say "well the directive says this", and yes it 'did' but things change.

 

When people ask the question "what is the correct documentation I should get with my boat" why not tell them the truth and explain what is legally required, they can then make an informed decision, as you. I and others have done, and decide if the risk and increasing scrutiny is likely to affect them.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Peanut said:

 The remedy would most likely be a Post Construction Assessment, to bring it into line.

 

Which is exactly what one poster on the forum, was told by their proposed Broker when they wanted to sell their 'no paperwork' boat.

 

A PCA will typically cost around £2000-£3000 assuming the boat has no 'failures' when examined against the requirements - as, I'd suggest', most boats NBs (almost certainly self fit outs) are built with no reference to the standards it is unlikely that a boat will not have failures which could require major rectification.

[Arthur Marshall]

21 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Quite agree. Just visit any property auction room and see it happening, especially right at the end of the day. People will buy houses based on the photo & description in the auction catalogue and nothing more if the price is low enough. And it sometimes is when no-one else in the room wants it. 

 

 

And usually in normal sales too. I only found that the solicitor hadn't sorted out one house purchase properly when I came to sell it five years later. My current house has a right of way across it that no-one bothered to tell me about and I only found out when I got the deeds (which of course you don't get any more), which could have been interesting as the last owner built a garage on top of it.

[ditchcrawler]

38 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

And usually in normal sales too. I only found that the solicitor hadn't sorted out one house purchase properly when I came to sell it five years later. My current house has a right of way across it that no-one bothered to tell me about and I only found out when I got the deeds (which of course you don't get any more), which could have been interesting as the last owner built a garage on top of it.

My neighbour put a swimming pool on the one beside his garden , he did move the style 6 foot to the left so people didn't fall in it. The present owner has had the path officially moved the 6 foot left.

[NF71]

I am very grateful to all the people who have responded to my initial question.

I feel that I am in a (somewhat) better position to understand what I need to look for paperwork wise to ensure:

1. When I buy a Widebeam I am as safe as I can be - no 1  priority

2. I would be in a position to re sell it should I want to - with max number of potential buyers

3. My asset is as secure as I can make it from a compliance point of view

 

I knew it was not a simple question.

 

What it also has shown me is that should things go wrong it is a can of worms!

 

Thank you all again.

Neil

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, NF71 said:

I am very grateful to all the people who have responded to my initial question.

I feel that I am in a (somewhat) better position to understand what I need to look for paperwork wise to ensure:

1. When I buy a Widebeam I am as safe as I can be - no 1  priority

2. I would be in a position to re sell it should I want to - with max number of potential buyers

3. My asset is as secure as I can make it from a compliance point of view

 

I knew it was not a simple question.

 

What it also has shown me is that should things go wrong it is a can of worms!

 

Thank you all again.

Neil

I think "a can of worms" is a reasonable definition of a boat, wonderful things that they are!

[Richard10002]

19 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I'm not sure why you think that from Alan's posts.

 

 

I think you, (and Tony and Barney), are misunderstanding my misunderstanding.

 

I dont propose to go through all of Alans posts, but this succinct reply of Alan's was possibly the one that confirmed for me what I was thinking:

 

MartynG:

 

"You explanation is unclear .

There is no requirement for , say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use.

Do you agree?"

 

Alan (de Enfield:

 

"NO"

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

I think you, (and Tony and Barney), are misunderstanding my misunderstanding.

 

I dont propose to go through all of Alans posts, but this succinct reply of Alan's was possibly the one that confirmed for me what I was thinking:

 

MartynG:

 

"You explanation is unclear .

There is no requirement for , say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use.

Do you agree?"

 

Alan (de Enfield:

 

"NO"

 

 

 

 

You seem to have a bit of trouble - are you hard of understanding ? - the answer to the question  "........say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023"

 

There is no such requirement - hence the "No"

 

The boat is required to have the correct RCD paper work ,from when it was built, and be in compliance with that paperwork - ie not have an engine 16% + bigger than the original one fitted, not have anything fitted / refitted., that will affect the stability, not have any non-compliant work done that could compromise safety (gas, electric or fuel)

 

Hopefully that is clear enough for you.

[Richard10002]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You seem to have a bit of trouble - are you hard of understanding ? - the answer to the question  "........say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023"

 

There is no such requirement - hence the "No"

 

 

The question was "There is no requirement for , say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use. Do You Agree?"

 

Your reply was "No", (i.e. you dont agree)

 

Thus, you seemed to be saying that:

 

"There is a requirement for, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use".

 

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The boat is required to have the correct RCD paper work ,from when it was built, and be in compliance with that paperwork - ie not have an engine 16% + bigger than the original one fitted, not have anything fitted / refitted., that will affect the stability, not have any non-compliant work done that could compromise safety (gas, electric or fuel)

 

Hopefully that is clear enough for you.

 

It's very clear and was, (more or less), what I already thought I knew.

[Momac]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

 

It's very clear and was, (more or less), what I already thought I knew.

Me too.

 

 

[David Mack]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

You seem to have a bit of trouble - are you hard of understanding ? - the answer to the question  "........say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023"

 

There is no such requirement - hence the "No"

 

The boat is required to have the correct RCD paper work ,from when it was built, and be in compliance with that paperwork - ie not have an engine 16% + bigger than the original one fitted, not have anything fitted / refitted., that will affect the stability, not have any non-compliant work done that could compromise safety (gas, electric or fuel)

 

Hopefully that is clear enough for you.

You are saying that not only must a 20 year old boat have complied with the standards applicable at the time it was manufactured and first sold, but that the owner is legally required to be able to document that compliance now, in order to sell the boat on (even if the boat has not undergone any significant modification during its life). That is different from the situation with most other second hand goods, where compliance with applicable original standards is irrelevant.

 

And to support your position you assert that a boat broker is a 'Distributor' within the meaning of the RCR. 

 

So my question to you is where is the government guidance (with full reference please) to a broker being a Distributor?

And what is the position with a private sale where there is no broker involved?

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

And to support your position you assert that a boat broker is a 'Distributor' within the meaning of the RCR. 

 

As I have provided the UK Governments definition of a 'distributor' several times - yes - I maintain that a broker is a distributor.

 

Again (with the source quoted)

 

 

 

Guidance on the regulations as they apply to craft being supplied in or into Great Britain.

November 2022

 

 

A distributor is any person, other than the manufacturer or importer, who makes a product available on the GB market.

The obligations of distributors include:

1.   Before making available products on the GB market the distributor must take due care to ensure that they are in conformity with Part 2 of the Regulations, meaning that they comply with the essential requirements and that each economic operator has complied with their obligations in relation to them. If the distributor believes that a product is not in conformity with the essential requirements, the distributor must not make that product available on the GB market.

 

 

The distributor is any natural or legal person in the supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes the product available on the market.

 

and just for clarity - the definition of a legal and natural person :

Natural person. In jurisprudence, a natural person is a person (in legal meaning, i.e., one who has its own legal personality) that is an individual human being, as opposed to a legal person, which may be a private (i.e., business entity or non-governmental organization) or public (i.e., government) organization.

 

 

Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents: EU Declaration of Conformity, instructions and safety information, the owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable

[David Mack]

Alan, please humour me and give the web address of the text you are quoting, as otherwise nobody else knows the source of the text you quote.

 

You have quoted the obligations of a Distributor, but you haven't said why those obligations apply to a broker advertising a second hand boat on behalf of a private owner. Neither have you addressed my point about a private non-broker sale.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Alan, please humour me and give the web address of the text you are quoting, as otherwise nobody else knows the source of the text you quote.

 

 

 

It really is as simple as typing into google "Guidance on the regulations as they apply to craft being supplied in or into Great Britain"

 

and you'll get : Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

 

19 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You have quoted the obligations of a Distributor, but you haven't said why those obligations apply to a broker advertising a second hand boat on behalf of a private owner. Neither have you addressed my point about a private non-broker sale.

 

I have also quoted the definition of a distributor : ANYONE who is not a manufacturer or an importer and is placing a boat 'on the market' is a distributor,

 

If you wish to prolong this further (as it's just getting repetitive now) why don't you ask The Brokers associations if they condsier brokers to be required to ensure the boat paperwork is correct - certainly a number of brokers (as reported in a number of threads) seem to believe that they are required to do so.

 

To give you a start here are the details for the BMF (for example ABNB are BMF members)

 

1st Floor
Tagus House 
9 Ocean Way
Ocean Village 
Southampton
SO14 3TJ 

You can contact us via the following methods:

1. E-mail: info@britishmarine.co.uk
2. Telephone: 01784 473377

 

The ABYA is another commonly used association with which Inland waterways brokers are registered (Burton Waters and farndon Marina are both members)
 

Broker | ABYA

 

 

[David Mack]

Again you fail to answer the point, and just quote more unnecessary text.

The RCR (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/regulation/2/made) includes the following definitions:

"distributor” means a person in the supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes a product available on the market;

“making available on the market” means any supply for distribution, consumption or use on the EU market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge and related expressions must be construed accordingly;

(with "EU market" to be read as "GB market" post Brexit)

 

It follows that a distributor must be acting in the course of a commercial activity. So in the case of a private sale there is no distributor, and thus the distributor obligations do not apply. In the case of a broker sale, the point hinges on whether the boat is being "made available" by the broker (who is involved in a commercial activity) or the vendor (who usually is not). Where a broker is involved the sale contract is directly between the vendor and the purchaser (with the broker having a separate agreement with the vendor under which he receives commission on the sale price). I would argue that in this case the "making available" is done by the vendor, not the broker, and thus the distributor obligations do not apply. It may be that the regulations are not entirely clear on this point, and it would take a court decision to clarify the position.

 

None of this affects the right of a broker to insist a vendor must have the RCR documentation as a condition of taking on the business, but that is not the same as saying he has a legal obligation to require it.

 

It I also worth noting that where a business buys in second hand boats to resell (as Whilton are alleged to do even where they don't make this clear to prospective purchasers), then since that is in the course of business, they could well be subject to the distributor obligations.

 

watercraft repealing Directive 94/25/EC(3);

“distributor” means 

the importer, who makes a product available on the market;

[Barneyp]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It really is as simple as typing into google "Guidance on the regulations as they apply to craft being supplied in or into Great Britain"

 

and you'll get : Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

 

 

I have also quoted the definition of a distributor : ANYONE who is not a manufacturer or an importer and is placing a boat 'on the market' is a distributor,

 

If you wish to prolong this further (as it's just getting repetitive now) why don't you ask The Brokers associations if they condsier brokers to be required to ensure the boat paperwork is correct - certainly a number of brokers (as reported in a number of threads) seem to believe that they are required to do so.

 

To give you a start here are the details for the BMF (for example ABNB are BMF members)

 

1st Floor
Tagus House 
9 Ocean Way
Ocean Village 
Southampton
SO14 3TJ 

You can contact us via the following methods:

1. E-mail: info@britishmarine.co.uk
2. Telephone: 01784 473377

 

The ABYA is another commonly used association with which Inland waterways brokers are registered (Burton Waters and farndon Marina are both members)
 

Broker | ABYA

 

 

I agree with Alan that finding the documents and web addresses is easy if you are prepared to look.

 

I'm not sure I agree with Alan's assertion that the law says the documentation needs to be provided when the boat is being sold second hand.

 

From: Recreational Craft Regulations 2017  https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/recreational-craft-regulations-2017/recreational-craft-regulations-2017-great-britain

Distributor – Any person in the GB supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes products available on the GB market.

 

In other contexts a distributor normally means some one supplying new products, although most regulations would use the term "placed on the market" when referring to a new product. So is there an important legal difference that means that "makes products available" includes second hand products or are the RCR regulations poorly worded?

 

I don't know, obviously the BMF (and some brokers) either think there is or at least might be. The only way to find out for definite would be to convince Trading Standards to make a prosecution and then get both sides to keep appealing until it ended up in the highest possible court whose ruling would be definitive (until the regulations or law change).

 

As that is highly unlikely to happen it is still a grey area, but as some brokers insist on having the paperwork for second hand boats it is at least possible that not having the paperwork would lower the value of the boat, and as more people become aware that the paperwork is potentially an issue the effect of not having it may become greater.

 

 

 

 

[Richard10002]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

It really is as simple as typing into google "Guidance on the regulations as they apply to craft being supplied in or into Great Britain"

 

and you'll get : Recreational Craft Regulations 2017: Great Britain - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

 

Easy for you to say

 

 

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I have also quoted the definition of a distributor : ANYONE who is not a manufacturer or an importer and is placing a boat 'on the market' is a distributor,

 

Having given a different  "definition" of a distributor, only a post or two above, the above only serves to confuse the issue. Which is it? Or is it both? I wonder if there are any more definitions, (in the context, of course  )?

 

In reality, your definition/s of a distributor dont really help to answer the question as to whether a broker is a distributor......  Is a broker "placing a boat on the market" or "making a boat available to the market", or is it the actual owner who is "making a boat available to the market", and the broker is merely facilitating that?

 

I wonder if there any case law which sets a precedent on this?

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you wish to prolong this further (as it's just getting repetitive now) why don't you ask The Brokers associations if they condsier brokers to be required to ensure the boat paperwork is correct - certainly a number of brokers (as reported in a number of threads) seem to believe that they are required to do so.

 

To give you a start here are the details for the BMF (for example ABNB are BMF members)

 

1st Floor
Tagus House 
9 Ocean Way
Ocean Village 
Southampton
SO14 3TJ 

You can contact us via the following methods:

1. E-mail: info@britishmarine.co.uk
2. Telephone: 01784 473377

 

The ABYA is another commonly used association with which Inland waterways brokers are registered (Burton Waters and farndon Marina are both members)
 

Broker | ABYA

 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Richard10002