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Definitive paperwork required to purchase a Widebeam for safety compliance


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8 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

I am possibly not understanding you .

Having the original RCD certificate is not the same as complying with the standards at the point it is  sold as a used boat say 20 years later.

Do you mean a boat  should still comply 20 years later with the standard that was in force  when it was new?

 

I have explained exactly what a boat needs to be sold - maybe if you read the RCD / RCR you will find the answer.

Everything is 'not in one place' and you will need to jump from Sections, to Schedules & Annexes, Points to Definitions to the actual paragraphs of the legislation.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

.............verify that the product bears the CE marking, as referred to in section 17, that it is accompanied by the documents required in section 7(7), section 15 and point 2.5 of Part A of Annex I, point 4 of Part B of Annex I and point 2 of Part C of Annex I a

 

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14 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Except placing a product on the GB market refers only to when it is first placed on the GB market. So used boat sales are not subject to the same requirements.

 

Can you provide the evidence that you are correct, as that is not what I believe the 2017 / 2018 / 2020 RCR updates say, and neither does the latest November 2022 'Government Guidance'.

 

Maybe I am reading it incorrectly or maybe you are.

 

As they say "please provide your workings" to justify your conclusions.

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5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have explained exactly what a boat needs to be sold - maybe if you read the RCD / RCR you will find the answer.

Everything is 'not in one place' and you will need to jump from Sections, to Schedules & Annexes, Points to Definitions to the actual paragraphs of the legislation.

You explanation is unclear .

There is no requirement for , say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use.

Do you agree?

 

 

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7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

You explanation is unclear .

There is no requirement for , say, a 20 year old boat which is for sale to comply with regulations in force , say  20 years later in 2023 ,  if  is a boat already legally in the uk and  sold for continued UK use.

Do you agree?

 

 

 

NO

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31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Can you provide the evidence that you are correct, as that is not what I believe the 2017 / 2018 / 2020 RCR updates say, and neither does the latest November 2022 'Government Guidance'.

 

Maybe I am reading it incorrectly or maybe you are.

 

As they say "please provide your workings" to justify your conclusions.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/placing-manufactured-goods-on-the-market-in-great-britain

"Placing products on the market

A product is placed on the market when it’s first made available for distribution, consumption or use on the GB market as part of a commercial activity. This can be in return for payment or free of charge."

 

Note "... first made available..."

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/regulation/6/made

 

"Essential requirements

6.  A person may only make a product available on the market or put it into service if that product—

(a)complies with the requirements in Schedule 1; and

(b)does not endanger the health and safety of persons, property or the environment when correctly maintained and used in accordance with its intended purpose."

 

The requirement to comply with Schedule 1 of the RCR only applies when a boat is first made available for distribution, consumption or use. There is no requirement that I can see that refers to subsequent sales.

If you think there is a specific provision relating to second hand boat sales then, as they say "please provide your workings" to justify your conclusions.

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4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

NO

 

 

It seems to me your interpretation is incorrect.

 

As an example a  20 year old boat will almost certainly not comply with current day emissions  standards.  Plenty of such boats which are already legally in the UK have been sold / remained  in the UK with no issues and without needing modification. Therefore all that is required is the original RCD and CE plate to be in place . The only  exception would be if major modifications have been made which would be rare . 

 

On the other hand if the same  example boat was to be imported or exported it would then be required to comply with the regulations at the time of the import/export. However I suspect this technicality is , in practice, overlooked if the original RCD documentation and CE plate are intact.  HMRC being interested in collecting VAT for an imported boat.

.

 

 

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8 hours ago, David Mack said:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/placing-manufactured-goods-on-the-market-in-great-britain

"Placing products on the market

A product is placed on the market when it’s first made available for distribution, consumption or use on the GB market as part of a commercial activity. This can be in return for payment or free of charge."

 

Note "... first made available..."

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/737/regulation/6/made

 

"Essential requirements

6.  A person may only make a product available on the market or put it into service if that product—

(a)complies with the requirements in Schedule 1; and

(b)does not endanger the health and safety of persons, property or the environment when correctly maintained and used in accordance with its intended purpose."

 

The requirement to comply with Schedule 1 of the RCR only applies when a boat is first made available for distribution, consumption or use. There is no requirement that I can see that refers to subsequent sales.

If you think there is a specific provision relating to second hand boat sales then, as they say "please provide your workings" to justify your conclusions.

 

I thought you were not using the updated version of the regulations :

 

2020 and subsequently 2022 changes :

 

Relevant extracts :

 

Distributor’s obligations The distributor is any natural or legal person in the supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes the product available on the market. Distributors have a key role to play in the context of market surveillance. A distributor must act with due care and their obligations are detailed in Article 10 of the Directive

 

While the “old” Directive considered the action of “placing on the market and/or putting into service”, the new Directive broadens the scope to the action of “making available”. All three concepts are now defined by the Directive. A product is made available on the market when supplied for distribution, consumption or use

 

A product is placed on the market when it is made available for the first time on the Union market. The operation is reserved either for a manufacturer or an importer as the manufacturer and the importer are the only economic operators who place products on the market

 

From the Government website :

 

Guidance on the regulations as they apply to craft being supplied in or into Great Britain.

November 2022

 

 

A distributor is any person, other than the manufacturer or importer, who makes a product available on the GB market.

The obligations of distributors include:

1.   Before making available products on the GB market the distributor must take due care to ensure that they are in conformity with Part 2 of the Regulations, meaning that they comply with the essential requirements and that each economic operator has complied with their obligations in relation to them. If the distributor believes that a product is not in conformity with the essential requirements, the distributor must not make that product available on the GB market.

2.   The distributor must also verify that the products bear the UKCA marking see footnote 2 (or until 31 December 2027 it is affixed to a label or the accompanying documentation); are accompanied by the required documents, the instructions and safety information; and that the manufacturer and importer have complied with their labelling and identification requirements.

3.   The distributor must ensure that while products are under their responsibility, their storage and transport conditions do not jeopardise their conformity with the essential health and safety requirements.

4.   The distributor must take action where they have reason to believe that the products that they have made available on the GB market are not in conformity with the Regulations or which present a risk to consumers. They must inform the market surveillance authority and they must not make them available on the GB market until they meet the requirements of the Regulations. Read more information on how to notify the MSA.

5.   The distributor must also cooperate with and provide information to enforcing authorities following any requests.

 

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9 hours ago, MartynG said:

As an example a  20 year old boat will almost certainly not comply with current day emissions  standards.  Plenty of such boats which are already legally in the UK have been sold / remained  in the UK with no issues and without needing modification. Therefore all that is required is the original RCD and CE plate to be in place . The only  exception would be if major modifications have been made which would be rare . 

 

See the above regulation extracts in response to David Mack.

 

Note that ONLY a manufacturer or importer can "place a product on the market" (the initial sale of the new product) and Distributors can only "make available" a product which is not placed on the market for the 1st time - ie is not new.

 

I am not suggesting that a secondhand boat needs to be reassessed to the latest requirements, simply that it must have the correct documentation and the actual boat must align with the paperwork. 

If the paperwork is missing, then yes, it will need a PCA

 

There is a list of RCD requirements that a distributor (when making available a used boat) has to ensure are in place, 

 

Before making available products on the GB market the distributor must take due care to ensure that they are in conformity with Part 2 of the Regulations, meaning that they comply with the essential requirements and that each economic operator has complied with their obligations in relation to them. If the distributor believes that a product is not in conformity with the essential requirements, the distributor must not make that product available on the GB market

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Note that ONLY a manufacturer or importer can "place a product on the market" (the initial sale of the new product) and Distributors can only "make available" a product which is not placed on the market for the 1st time - ie is not new.

That doesn't follow. If you buy a car from your local manufactuer's authorised car dealership, that is still a 'new' car, if it has had no previous private owner, even though on its way to you the car may have passed from Manufacturer to Importer to the dealership. In that case the dealership is the Distributor.  Same for a new boat. The Manufacturer or Importer "places it on the market", either by selling it directly to the end customer, or by supplying it to the Distributor who then "makes it available".

 

And it would be helpful if you provided the source of the text you have quoted.

 

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4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

 

 

And it would be helpful if you provided the source of the text you have quoted.

 

 

I did.

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

In that case the dealership is the Distributor.  Same for a new boat. The Manufacturer or Importer "places it on the market", either by selling it directly to the end customer, or by supplying it to the Distributor who then "makes it available".

 

But, a car is not subject to the RCR and will have different definitions and regulations.

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8 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I'm going with @MtB trading standards have no interest in this so it's one of those rules/laws that is irrelevant in everyday use.

I have no axe to grind in this as my boat is 30 years old so outside the scope.

 

I agree with this BUT if not having a RCD/RCR is going to prevent a broker accepting it for sale some years down the line or if not having it allows a prospective purchaser to reduce offer a far lower price then it is probably best to avoid buying a boat with no RCR/RCD

 

To be clear, apart from reports on this forum, I have had it confirmed that at least one broker is refusing in scope boats without a RCD/RCR.

 

In the end it matters not a jot what anyone here may think, unless they are a legal specialist with experience and training in such matters the law is the law, no mater how nonsensical it may seem to some. The fact those charged with enforcing it do not bother does not invalidate the law, it still stands until modified by a court or parliament.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I'm going with @MtB trading standards have no interest in this so it's one of those rules/laws that is irrelevant in everyday use.

I have no axe to grind in this as my boat is 30 years old so outside the scope.

 

 

The bit about all this that puzzles me is Trading Standards AIUI are responsible for mounting prosecutions for breaches of RCD/RCR but in general, seem not to. Yet Tony if I understand him correctly, writes about the risk of being sued by a buyer. Sued for what, exactly I wonder. The cost of replacing the wrong glass in the windows perhaps, or some such similar perceived loss? Were I to be sued for such a loss I'd be pointing out that I made it clear to the buyer of my boat that the RCD was missing and nothing has been concealed. 

 

Or Alan writes about four court cases a surveyor he knows has been involved in. Again I wonder if this was as an expert witness for TS mounting a criminal prosecution, or if it was for a client suing for perceived loss following concealment of a missing RCD. Or something else?

 

What might actually happen when someone sells a boat with missing RCD? Especially if the buyer is not complaining? (Other than nothing, I suspect.)

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I would have thought, the amount pursued in a legal action would be:

 

[value of boat assuming it has RCD/is compliant] - [value of boat once its revealed it has no RCD, or isn't compliant in some or other way]

 

The values would be a perceived amount, a figure plucked out of the air and massaged to maximise the gain from taking on a lawsuit - BUT they would have been done by an "expert" witness (you know, one of them surveyors who has loads of experience but doesn't actually have any qualifications, because none exist...) who is prepared to put his name and reputation to those two values. It would be up to the seller to prove the difference in values, was much lower or none at all, by having their own, better, expert witness.

10 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

The bit about all this that puzzles me is Trading Standards AIUI are responsible for mounting prosecutions for breaches of RCD/RCR but in general, seem not to.

 

There is probably a checklist for TS to mount a prosecution, or even to get out of bed and look at the case. One of those checks being "is it in the public interest". And also an apportionment based on the other work they have. Since narrowboat sales and the narrowboat market is miniscule compared to, say, the secondhand car market, or washing machines catching fire, or dangerous kids toys, they probably focus on that instead.

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3 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I would have thought, the amount pursued in a legal action would be:

 

[value of boat assuming it has RCD/is compliant] - [value of boat once its revealed it has no RCD, or isn't compliant in some or other way]

 

The values would be a perceived amount, a figure plucked out of the air and massaged to maximise the gain from taking on a lawsuit - BUT they would have been done by an "expert" witness (you know, one of them surveyors who has loads of experience but doesn't actually have any qualifications, because none exist...) who is prepared to put his name and reputation to those two values. It would be up to the seller to prove the difference in values, was much lower or none at all, by having their own, better, expert witness.

 

And if the missing RCD was declared in the sales details and made clear?

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

There is probably a checklist for TS to mount a prosecution, or even to get out of bed and look at the case. One of those checks being "is it in the public interest".

 

This is a good point. I'd expect that 'in the public interest' test to be applied to everything TS do, and probably what the TS bod meant when he told me they have "bigger fish to fry". (He didn't tell me that in a hostile manner, just by way of explanation the they were aware of the RCD but knew little about it, and didn't plan on learning!)

 

I'll go back and see if I can find Alan's post where he writes about the four prosecutions he knows about.l 

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Ok found it. In Post 21 Alan writes

 

"A forum member is a surveyor / RCD examiner and has (at the last count) been involved in 4 court actions against Narrowboat builders for non-compliance."

 

Alan doesn't appear to say if these are criminal prosecutions mounted by Trading Standards or private buyers suing the builder of a boat they purchased. 

 

Might we have some more details of these four court action please, Alan? Are they criminal or civil "court actions"? Are they new boats or boats bought on the second hand market? Are they canal boats or something else? 

 

Thanks.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, MtB said:

Ok found it. In Post 21 Alan writes

 

"A forum member is a surveyor / RCD examiner and has (at the last count) been involved in 4 court actions against Narrowboat builders for non-compliance."

 

Alan doesn't appear to say if these are criminal prosecutions mounted by Trading Standards or private buyers suing the builder of a boat they purchased. 

 

Might we have some more details of these four court action please, Alan? Are they criminal or civil "court actions"? Are they new boats or boats bought on the second hand market? Are they canal boats or something else? 

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure if Keith wishes to make the detail known he will do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Legal Action Against Builders.png

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28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

I'm sure if Keith wishes to make the detail known he will do so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Legal Action Against Builders.png

 

 

Great, thanks! 

 

So given the cases were won with damages paid, we can surmise these were civil cases with the boat owners suing the builders for damages. And from the general tone of the discussion, I think these were probably new boats.

 

So, still not one single case found yet, of TS enforcing the RCD or RCR. 

 

The only cases so far appearing to be where the builder was sued for damages from the boat not actually meeting the spec they claimed in their carelessly (or fraudulently) prepared RCD or RCR documentation. 

 

A totally different kettle of fish from a broker marketing an in-scope boat and declaring in the sales details a missing RCD/RCR. Waters muddied especially when said boat is more than five years old.

 

Link here to the thread:

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/111905-competent-surveyor-needed-covering-cheshire/page/2/

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
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3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:


I am not suggesting that a secondhand boat needs to be reassessed to the latest requirements,

Everything that you have said so far has suggested that this is exactly what you were suggesting.

 

I'm glad you have cleared this up because, in your usual doom mongering way, you had me worried that I would have to modify my boat substantially before being able to sell it legally.

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9 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Everything that you have said so far has suggested that this is exactly what you were suggesting.

 

I'm glad you have cleared this up because, in your usual doom mongering way, you had me worried that I would have to modify my boat substantially before being able to sell it legally.

 

If it has no RCR/RCD and is within scope then you might have to to get it complaint or you may have to accept a private sale at a lower offer. The chances of a TS prosecution are minimal as most of us acknowledge but a Broker may well refuse to handle the boat.

 

How many people do you think would not use the lack of a certificate to beat the price down? A few, maybe, but if they know about the RCR/RCD many would not offer up such a chance.

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2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Everything that you have said so far has suggested that this is exactly what you were suggesting.

 

I'm glad you have cleared this up because, in your usual doom mongering way, you had me worried that I would have to modify my boat substantially before being able to sell it legally.

I didn't read Alan's posts as doom mongering, just clarifying the law.

 

As others have pointed out it is not enforced by trading standards, but in a few rare cases has been used by purchasers of new boats to sue the builder.

 

What many people seem unwilling to accept is that what the law says and what happens in the real world are not the same, they can argue all they like that the vast majority of second hand boat sales don't have the paperwork, that doesn't change what the law says.

 

People need to got their heads round the fact that their are 2 separate points being made:

1) what the law actually says

2) what happens in reality

And that knowing both these bits of information will help anyone make a decision as to whether they are worried by a lack of paperwork.

 

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11 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

People need to got their heads round the fact that their are 2 separate points being made:

1) what the law actually says

2) what happens in reality

And that knowing both these bits of information will help anyone make a decision as to whether they are worried by a lack of paperwork.

 

 

Neither of which addresses the question asked in the OP, which was:

 

"Is there one source of truth to the above please.

I do not want to buy a boat without the correct paperwork.

 

1. Boat less than 5 years old

2. Boat older than 5 years

3. Converted Sailaway"

 

And I maintain the answer to this question is "no" to all of 1, 2 and 3, there is no one source of truth to "the above".

 

("The above" possibly referring to the different question asked in the thread title).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by MtB
Clarify a point.
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3 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Everything that you have said so far has suggested that this is exactly what you were suggesting.

 

I'm glad you have cleared this up because, in your usual doom mongering way, you had me worried that I would have to modify my boat substantially before being able to sell it legally.

 

I'm not sure why you think that from Alan's posts.

 

What he keeps saying on these threads - and I agree with him - is that there have been significant changes to the RCD/RCR on the last revision.  The most important of these for current boat owners is that the certification now lasts the lifetime of the boat, not just the first time it's sold or used.

 

The other important thing is that if you ever do a "major craft conversion" - like change the engine, which isn't that unusual on narrowboats - you are supposed to have the boat surveyed and the paperwork updated. 

 

It's possible that at this point any other (not so major) work that has been done not to standards may need to be rectified.  Short form is don't bodge stuff on a boat that has RCD/RCR certification!

 

On a slightly gloomier note, if a boat owner chooses to ignore all this it might eventually become an issue for whoever's handling the estate.  There's always someone who will take it off their hands regardless of paperwork, but at what price and with how much aggravation at that point.

 

Alan has mentioned before that he got tens of thousands of pounds knocked off the asking price of his Catamaran because it didn't have the correct paperwork, and that was an easy RCD fix because it was a known product from a known manufacturer.  There are very few canal boats where you could simply ask the original manufacturer for a certified copy of the original RCD certificate and a copy of the owners manual ...

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