Boat dwellers to be able to claim the £400 energy allowance.

[Arthur Marshall]

I suspect the "off grid household" will only apply to bricks and mortar which can provide a history and an address. The limiting of support to travellers to those on recognised sites indicates that, if it applies to boaters at all, only those with a registered residential mooring are going to qualify, and those claiming to be essentially mobile will not, any more than will travelling travellers, or those parked up illegally.

 

But who knows? It'll all come clear when the claim system goes live, if it ever does.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I suspect the "off grid household" will only apply to bricks and mortar which can provide a history and an address. The limiting of support to travellers to those on recognised sites indicates that, if it applies to boaters at all, only those with a registered residential mooring are going to qualify, and those claiming to be essentially mobile will not, any more than will travelling travellers, or those parked up illegally.

 

But who knows? It'll all come clear when the claim system goes live, if it ever does.

 

I suspect anything that would mean some kind of manual check/review was needed to approve payment (and actually transfer the money) is a non-starter, there isn't anyone to do this and sort through tens of thousands of applications that don't pass the normal box-ticking test.

 

If eligibility can't be decided (and payment made) by scraping data from some existing government database (like registered addresses) then there won't be any payment.

Edited January 10, 2023 by IanD

[Paul C]

I am just guessing, but while there may be an obvious incentive to simply link it to CT (ie an off-grid household which is not connected to gas/electricity, but pays CT, will get the grant) there might be a manual process to ask for it, where a 'household' claims a valid exemption to CT (as genuine CCers do) but obviously have energy costs of some kind, and are obviously off-grid so aren't detected or included already.

 

It would be interesting how those who don't have a valid CT exemption fare - for example liveaboard boater on a leisure mooring, "under the radar".

 

No doubt some time soon, NBTA are going to be getting lots of enquiries from their members along the lines of "My £400 doesn't seem to have arrived yet/how do I claim my £400?" and then they can flesh out how their negotiatings have been fruitful, or otherwise.

 

 

[waterworks]

Sometimes it's better to shut up than draw attention to the fact you have been living on a mooring without planning consent. 

 

The time will come when councils decide this loophole is over, it's just a matter of time as with all loopholes. They are already fully aware of it since thousands have claimed benefits while on leisure moorings,  councils aren't stupid. 

[Paul C]

3 minutes ago, waterworks said:

Sometimes it's better to shut up than draw attention to the fact you have been living on a mooring without planning consent. 

 

The time will come when councils decide this loophole is over, it's just a matter of time as with all loopholes. They are already fully aware of it since thousands have claimed benefits while on leisure moorings,  councils aren't stupid. 

 

Maybe the way they'll deliver the £400 is to reduce the fine for council tax evasion from (say) £1000 to £600, once they find them. 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

9 minutes ago, Paul C said:

No doubt some time soon, NBTA are going to be getting lots of enquiries from their members along the lines of "My £400 doesn't seem to have arrived yet/how do I claim my £400?" and then they can flesh out how their negotiatings have been fruitful, or otherwise.

its looking very much otherwise at the moment

I’ve had another more up to date glance at the gov website and I can find no way in/angle/opening for the like’s of someone like me without an address. 

 

 

[Tacet]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

Again, there's a fundamental difference between inheriting a house and going and and buying houses to rent -- one is something that just happened to you, the other is a deliberate strategy to make money.

 

But given how high "the going rate" for rental is and how much it's gone up recently, surely if you wanted to feel good you should be renting it at *below* the market rate, like social housing? Especially since there is presumably no mortgage (or a small one) on the property, so your costs are low?

 

Maybe.  But the same stone can be cast at non-landlords who could feel good by buying a house and renting it cheap. Or if they can't afford a whole house, they could simply pay a chunk of the rent on behalf of a random tenant.

 

If the country wants its residents well housed (and I do), then it needs to be publicly financed from well considered taxation.  Expecting a proportion of the population to buy dwellings in the non-regulated market and then rent them at regulated or benevolent rents is not a realistic solution. 

 

When it is tried, the private rented sector soon dries up. This is, of course, because landlords want better returns.  But there must be few businesses that operate by buying at market rates and selling on a lesser basis.

 

 

 

[waterworks]

9 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Maybe the way they'll deliver the £400 is to reduce the fine for council tax evasion from (say) £1000 to £600, once they find them. 

Not sure about " evasion" since if you went to the council and offered to pay CT for a leisure mooring at any time in the past they would not accept your claim as there would be no known address .

 

 

[Paul C]

Indeed, some are validly exempt. Some aren't.....

[Arthur Marshall]

26 minutes ago, Goliath said:

its looking very much otherwise at the moment

I’ve had another more up to date glance at the gov website and I can find no way in/angle/opening for the like’s of someone like me without an address. 

 

 

That's another problem. Without specific iD you can't even get onto the website, same as you won't be able to vote next year, and the types of ID you can use are very limited. But it may be simpler as it's supposed to be paid out by councils somehow.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

That's another problem. Without specific iD you can't even get onto the website, same as you won't be able to vote next year, and the types of ID you can use are very limited. But it may be simpler as it's supposed to be paid out by councils somehow.

You can get on to the main site gov.uk website with no need for passwords. 
 

 

[nbfiresprite]

1 hour ago, waterworks said:

Not sure about " evasion" since if you went to the council and offered to pay CT for a leisure mooring at any time in the past they would not accept your claim as there would be no known address .

 

 

That depends very much on the council in the area, Council Tax is charged on leisure moorings in the Fenland if you can not produce a council tax bill with your name on it. As for the address they would add it to their database and the Royal Mail address database.

 

South Cambridgeshire charge 50% council tax  if the boat on the mooring is unoccupied

 

https://www.scambs.gov.uk/council-tax/reductions-and-discounts/annexes-job-related-second-homes-caravans-and-boats/

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

Indeed, some are validly exempt. Some aren't.....

 Validly exempt?

 

Council Tax either applies or it doesn’t. 
There is no exemption. 
Exemption implies a ‘let off’. 
Perhaps one can apply for a reduction in charge but not exemption.

 

[Paul C]

Just now, Goliath said:

 Validly exempt?

 

Council Tax either applies or it doesn’t. 
There is no exemption. 
Exemption implies a ‘let off’. 
Perhaps one can apply for a reduction in charge but not exemption.

 

 

Its just semantics. Exempt = no charge applies, because CT isn't applicable. For example, on a leisure mooring where the boat/boaters aren't on the boat, on the mooring, long enough to be deemed residing on the mooring, thus CT isn't applicable. They might be on the boat for longer than on the mooring (just, out and about cruising), thus not actually have another home or domicile. Fair enough, perhaps 'exemption' wasn't the best word to use, because its associated with discounts/exemptions/disregards which are quite well defined. This is a further stage - a case where CT isn't applicable in the first place.

 

 

[Momac]

33 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

That depends very much on the council in the area, Council Tax is charged on leisure moorings in the Fenland if you can not produce a council tax bill with your name on it. As for the address they would add it to their database and the Royal Mail address database.

 

South Cambridgeshire charge 50% council tax  if the boat on the mooring is unoccupied

 

https://www.scambs.gov.uk/council-tax/reductions-and-discounts/annexes-job-related-second-homes-caravans-and-boats/

That only applies if the boat is your main residence?

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 minute ago, Paul C said:

 

Its just semantics. Exempt = no charge applies, because CT isn't applicable. For example, on a leisure mooring where the boat/boaters aren't on the boat, on the mooring, long enough to be deemed residing on the mooring, thus CT isn't applicable. They might be on the boat for longer than on the mooring (just, out and about cruising), thus not actually have another home or domicile. Fair enough, perhaps 'exemption' wasn't the best word to use, because its associated with discounts/exemptions/disregards which are quite well defined. This is a further stage - a case where CT isn't applicable in the first place.

 

 

Yea, and I’ve used the word exemption too. So my mistake too. 
 

 
But it is worth considering because there’s been talk/suggestions here that everyone should pay Council Tax. 
But it’s a property/land tax that don’t apply in many cases to a boat, especially a boat without a mooring. 

Just as Stamp Duty don’t apply when buying a boat. 
 

[Momac]

Your main residence could been genuinely elsewhere but you might not have a council tax bill in your name.

Not everyone who lives in a house pays council tax 

There is only one person in each house who pays council tax .

 

 

 

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Your main residence could been genuinely elsewhere but you might not have a council tax bill in your name.

Not everyone who lives in a house pays council tax 

There is only one person in each house who pays council tax .

 

 

True, but that person does have to provide the names of every other adult living in the house. 

 

 

[Momac]

26 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

True, but that person does have to provide the names of every other adult living in the house. 

Do they ?

I just let the direct debit roll over . The council get their money . No questions are asked.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

True, but that person does have to provide the names of every other adult living in the house. 

 

 

 

Not here they dont. They just send me the bill as the person they have on record as being the person responsible for paying council tax at my address.

2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Do they ?

I just let the direct debit roll over . The council get their money . No questions are asked.

 

Ditto.

 

I think the boiler man is getting confused with registration on the electoral register.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Do they ?

I just let the direct debit roll over . The council get their money . No questions are asked.

 

I get a form every year I have to fill in listing everyone over 18 living here. And if I don't, they will actually send someone to my doorstep to knock my door and 'help me fill it in'. DAMHIK.

 

 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Obviously upset a neighbour,

[Guest]

There is an obvious and simple explanation.....

[Momac]

1 minute ago, M_JG said:

There is an obvious and simple explanation.....

Single person occupancy?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, MartynG said:

Single person occupancy?

 

Ah, yes quite possibly. Our council just asks at the time you claim it but not each and every year.

 

My MIL used to claim that, but you had to declare if anyone over 18 subsequently moved in.