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Back boiler Failure


DShK

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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

I do have an inline pump.  It is a centrifugal type Johnson with mag drive so it cannot leak, installed in the return line.  It offers very little resistance to flow and is normally off.  It is controlled by a pipe stat with override and is handy when starting up.  A short burst of pump once the fire has warmed up some awater assists the thermal circulation to get going after which, at bearable levels of fire, the system operates without.

 

The key to getting good thermal circulation is something I read many years ago in a plumbers guide to gravity circulated central heating design.  (Remember all those  big cast iron pipes in churches and schools etc?)  That advised getting the biggest vertical rise possible immediately after the boiler and then falling all the way back to the boiler  The 'push' the vertical pipe creates is quite significant, and it is more effective than a long slanting rise.

 

I think the OP might find it beneficial to take the radiators off and give them a good flush with either a hose, or better, a pressure washer. Then take the rad  valves off the pipes and check the pipework for sludge.  If sludgy some Fernox system cleaner (or similar)  would be a good idea.  Not the best of times to be doing it though!

 

N

 

I think, in response to Tracy D'arth, I would be wary of an inline pump not working at all and causing the hot water to be contained. But if the pump was after the header, the water would steam off through the header tank initially, but get boiled away from the boiler to the header if there is no alternative circulation route but only through the pump.  

 

 

 

Edited by Higgs
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1 hour ago, DShK said:

I realised I didn't engage my brain when I said my system was all in series. My radiators are in fact in parrel with the main circuit. I can turn them off and bypass them.

 

 

So how is the calorifier connected to the main pipe run, series or parallel.

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On 12/12/2022 at 12:49, Tony Brooks said:

 

So how is the calorifier connected to the main pipe run, series or parallel.

Series, rads are parellel

 

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

How goes the new boiler fitting? 

New boiler is in, wasn't too bad to do. I got some new cleaner for the pipes too, the one I bought was for "crud" this one is for "sludge".

 

Problem is I overtightened a compression fitting and now it's leaking. Need to go buy a blowtorch etc and learn to solder pipes so I can replace that bit of pipe. Doh! I was so close to being warm again.

thanks for asking.

Edited by DShK
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13 minutes ago, DShK said:

Series, rads are parellel

 

New boiler is in, wasn't too bad to do. I got some new cleaner for the pipes too, the one I bought was for "crud" this one is for "sludge".

 

Problem is I overtightened a compression fitting and now it's leaking. Need to go buy a blowtorch etc and learn to solder pipes so I can replace that bit of pipe. Doh! I was so close to being warm again.

thanks for asking.

Oh bugger. 

 

I take it you can't just replace the offending fitting or olive? 

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6 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Oh bugger. 

 

I take it you can't just replace the offending fitting or olive? 

 

I assume it's the pipe that's leaking, it deformed the pipe and it's now merged with screw on side of the fitting anyway. Weirdly it didn't have an olive, where the other end of the boiler piping did. I wonder if this is how I managed damage it by overtightening - will put on olive on when I fit a new bit.

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27 minutes ago, DShK said:

 

I assume it's the pipe that's leaking, it deformed the pipe and it's now merged with screw on side of the fitting anyway. Weirdly it didn't have an olive, where the other end of the boiler piping did. I wonder if this is how I managed damage it by overtightening - will put on olive on when I fit a new bit.

Not ideal i suppose but you could put in one of those emergency longer compression fittings until you can get it sorted. Pretty sure they come in 15mm, 22mm and 28mm flavours

9.jpg

Edited by rusty69
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12 minutes ago, DShK said:

 

I assume it's the pipe that's leaking, it deformed the pipe and it's now merged with screw on side of the fitting anyway. Weirdly it didn't have an olive, where the other end of the boiler piping did. I wonder if this is how I managed damage it by overtightening - will put on olive on when I fit a new bit.

 

Do the boiler connections have a small taper in the hole in the threaded fitting. If not you may need to use tap connectors rather than compression fitting. The bit about no olive makes it sound like a tap connector (or a bodge) to me.

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The standard Squirrel boiler connections are male parallel BSP.

It is easiest to put plenty of sealant on them and use parallel female  BSP to copper fittings. Heldite is good,   LS 1 (Screwfix) works,  Tru Blu from Toolstation is good.  Unfortunately they all need time to set.  White PTFE tape does not always work.  Yellow, gas quality, tape is better. If you can get tape to work it is fit and use.

 

Tap (Cap and Lining)  connectors are good too, but you may struggle to find 22 and 28mm ones. If you do, get some spare fibre washers.  It is easy to buggr them up and they should be replaced if the fitting is dismantled.

 

N

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27 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Not ideal i suppose but you could put in one of those emergency longer compression fittings until you can get it sorted. Pretty sure they come in 22mm and 28mm flavours

9.jpg

Something like that could work! Any reason it would be problematic long term?

 

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Do the boiler connections have a small taper in the hole in the threaded fitting. If not you may need to use tap connectors rather than compression fitting. The bit about no olive makes it sound like a tap connector (or a bodge) to me.

Is that little lip what you mean?

image.png.eb800fa39b41c9cb9bcf7c2bf912c303.png

2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

The standard Squirrel boiler connections are male parallel BSP.

It is easiest to put plenty of sealant on them and use parallel female  BSP to copper fittings. Heldite is good,   LS 1 (Screwfix) works,  Tru Blu from Toolstation is good.  Unfortunately they all need time to set.  White PTFE tape does not always work.  Yellow, gas quality, tape is better. If you can get tape to work it is fit and use.

 

Tap (Cap and Lining)  connectors are good too, but you may struggle to find 22 and 28mm ones. If you do, get some spare fibre washers.  It is easy to buggr them up and they should be replaced if the fitting is dismantled.

 

N

I bought some "heat resistant" sealant to use, it is kinda concrete-y and paste like. Will this do, do you think?

 

This is the fitting, it's the top part that has tightened down too much to cause the leak, rather than the bit actually on the boiler. Is this a BSP fitting rather than a tap?

 

image.png.b521c5f4e2bd5dce6dc1ae9b488c8f27.png

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5 minutes ago, DShK said:

Something like that could work! Any reason it would be problematic long term?

 

Sorry, no idea. I can't see why it would be a problem.

 

Actually, looking at the bottom pic, you don't need an extended fitting, a standard fitting and piece of pipe would do, or just solder a new one in as you suggested. I have a feeling it should have an olive in that bit.

Edited by rusty69
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The olive has been crushed. Common problem. You'll have to cut the pipe further back and put a new olive on it. Once an olive as failed it isn't possible to fix without doing a bodge because the pipe will have been squashed in a bit.

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The hole in the elbow looks a bit odd to me. It seems to have ledge at the bottom of the taper, but it might be an optical illusion.

 

I was talking about the boiler thread, not the elbow that one presumes is screwed onto the boiler thread. Now we can see the elbow is fitted to the boiler by what looks like a parallel BSP thread my comment about a tap connector for the pipework is not relevant.

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I bought some "heat resistant" sealant to use, it is kinda concrete-y and paste like. Will this do, do you think?

 

No idea, without knowing what you have.  That said if the threaded bit is not leaking, leave it alone, the sealant is obviously effective.

 

Your picture shows a 3/4 BSP female x 22 or 28 mm copper elbow. The lip you can see is the stop which ensures  the copper  pipe has entered the fitting far enough. The tapered olive seat by the threadwhere the pipe enters is a bit on the narrow side which may be why it has been over tightened. You will need to cut the old olive off and remove the damaged bit of pipe.  If it is still long enough reassemble with an olive, smear the olive lightly with some sealant, get it hand tight then turn it  five flats with a spanner.  If it weeps give it a bit more, but not more than two flats.

 

if it is too short you will need to cut more off and extend it  using some 22 or 28 mm pipe and a 22 or 28 mm straight compression coupler.  Fit this las above: hand tight, five flats, a bit more if it weeps.

 

Much easier now to use a compression coupler than to learn to solder.  Solder is great for many reasons, but can be quite awkward for a beginner in the confined spaces round a stove.   You also have to think about the effects of a blowlamp on the surroundings.

 

N

 

Edited by BEngo
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On 12/12/2022 at 12:04, blackrose said:

 

How big was the stove? I don't understand why you couldn't get uphill slope from the backboiler outlet up to under gunwale height? I've got a big 9kW double door Morso Panther and there was at least a foot of room to get a slope uphill to the top run.

It was a Parkray from a house, they are usually set into the chimney breast and it was in the front of  a 62` boat, the backboiler sat quite high and with a spirit level the end of the pipe run was just OK when it reached the back bulkhead under the gunwhale but there was not much to spare so dropping the whole stove down a couple of inches gave it a bit extra just to make sure it would work and it made it just a bit easier to fit the last rads,.

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Okay thanks all for the input! I am very happy to hear I shouldn't have to solder it. Plumbing is very new to me so this helps a lot.

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/flomasta-compression-equal-coupler-28mm/80564

 

It seems like this (it's 28mm pipe rather than 22mm) plus some olives and piping should do the trick. I'll buy two of the above because the screw bit for the elbow joint is stuck on the pipe - and screwfix don't sell it seperately.

 

Guess I'll need a pipe cutter like https://www.screwfix.com/p/magnusson-3-28mm-manual-multi-material-pipe-cutter/173pr

 

Seems pipe is sold in 3m lengths minimum, that's unfortunate. Guess it's good to have spare?

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13 minutes ago, DShK said:

Seems pipe is sold in 3m lengths minimum, that's unfortunate. Guess it's good to have spare?

Its always good to have a bit of spare, but 3m might be a bit excessive unless you are doing a lot. I see amazon sell 1m lengths, as do suppliers on ebay, and in even shorter lengths. Might be worth asking a local plumbing shop too.

 

The important thing with the pipe cutter is that you have enough room to rotate it (ideally 360 degrees, or at least 180)

Edited by rusty69
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2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Its always good to have a bit of spare, but 3m might be a bit excessive unless you are doing a lot. I see amazon sell 1m lengths. Might be worth asking a local plumbing shop.

 

The important thing with the pipe cutter is that you have enough room to rotate it (ideally 360 degrees, or at least 180)

Doesn't seem to be any local plunbing shops, just plumbers. If I have another cold night I might go insane so I may just buy the 3m section. I was worried about the rotation, I think it will fit - guess the only alternative is a hacksaw?

 

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4 minutes ago, DShK said:

Doesn't seem to be any local plunbing shops, just plumbers. If I have another cold night I might go insane so I may just buy the 3m section. I was worried about the rotation, I think it will fit - guess the only alternative is a hacksaw?

 

It's doable with a hacksaw, but not ideal, as you want a nice square face. I would use a pipe cutter if you can get in there. They do round ones, but i'm not sure they go to 28mm. This kind of thing:

 

https://www.toolstation.com/autocut-copper-pipe-cutter/p55102?

 

If I am forced to cut pipe/tube with a saw, I will put a piece of tape around the diameter as best as possible and follow the line, and then file it. But I am no plumber. 

Edited by rusty69
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I bought a lot of 28mm compression fittings and pipe from a scrap yard some years ago. They get quite a bit of this weighed in as older systems are replaced with modern stuff in houses.

 

Worth asking if there is one nearby.

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

It's doable with a hacksaw, but not ideal, as you want a nice square face. I would use a pipe cutter if you can get in there. They do round ones, but i'm not sure they go to 28mm

 

If I am forced to cut pipe/tube with a saw, I will put a piece of tape around the diameter as best as possible and follow the line, and then file it. But I am no plumber. 

You can get a 28mm pipeslice but not sure if Screwfix or Toolstation do them.

 

Toolstation have them on the website

https://www.toolstation.com/autocut-copper-pipe-cutter/p55102?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=_dc&pcrid=&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4_WnmMD5-wIVCt7tCh0_2QNzEAQYASABEgJVIfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

As a bodge it might be worth trying self amalgamating tape although I'm not sure if it is rated to that sort of temperature. Most hardware shops will have it. Worth a try in a cold emergency I think.

Edited by magnetman
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3 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I bought a lot of 28mm compression fittings and pipe from a scrap yard some years ago. They get quite a bit of this weighed in as older systems are replaced with modern stuff in houses.

 

Worth asking if there is one nearby.

You can get a 28mm pipeslice but not sure if Screwfix or Toolstation do them.

 

Toolstation have them on the website

https://www.toolstation.com/autocut-copper-pipe-cutter/p55102?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=_dc&pcrid=&pkw=&pmt=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4_WnmMD5-wIVCt7tCh0_2QNzEAQYASABEgJVIfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

As a bodge it might be worth trying self amalgamating tape although I'm not sure if it is rated to that sort of temperature. Most hardware shops will have it. Worth a try in a cold emergency I think.

Yeah, I noticed them. Not cheap though compared to the screwfix ones. If the screwfix one will go in that space it should work. Depends how much room there is, or how much the pipe can be pulled away from the woodwork.

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Hmmm, it says 60mm clearance which seems like loads. It's just on the edge of working, I'll give it a go and hope for the best, saves £20...

 

Will report back with results later! Thanks again for all the help!

Edited by DShK
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Me and the pup will be toasty tonight thanks to everyone. Thank you everyone so much. I really appreciate it. I couldn't have done it without you all.

 

I will update when I can tell if this sorted out the circulation issue. I have cleaner running through it at the moment too. I notice the boiler is not making any noise at the moment, which is great.

PXL_20221214_211602903.jpg

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