Antifreeze, again...

[blackrose]

6 hours ago, LadyG said:

 

Anything wil be "compatible" if the engine cooling system is drained, flushed, and replaced 

 

That's what I thought too. I didn't bother to check the compatibility of my antifreeze with my engine the last couple of times I've changed it.

 

I notice that the Prestone stuff in MtB's original post has a 10 year lifespan. That's twice as long as the red stuff I've used and 5 times as long as most of the standard blue ethylene glycol.

 

I assume it would be ok for diesel heaters and central heating systems?

Edited November 26, 2022 by blackrose

[Momac]

52 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Don't know about the Prestone stuff but it normally also reduces the specific heat capacity of the water in the system, so more than a certain concentration is not a good idea, Especially on narrow boats than might well have an undersized skin tank.

I agree running with 100% concentrate would not be good.

[StephenA]

7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

That's what I thought too. I didn't bother to check the compatibility of my antifreeze with my engine the last couple of times I've changed it.

 

I notice that the Prestone stuff in MtB's original post has a 10 year lifespan. That's twice as long as the red stuff I've used and 5 times as long as most of the standard blue ethylene glycol.

 

I assume it would be ok for diesel heaters and central heating systems?

 

We've had no problems with it in the Optimus.

[Tom and Bex]

28 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Be aware there is no common ground regarding colour as its just a dye.

This is widely said, but is there any evidence that commonly available aftermarket antifreeze is sold in anything other than blue for the "old" 2 year  antifreeze, or red for the "newer" 10 year antifreeze? I appreciate some car manufactures may use different colours for their own branded antifreeze, but suggest it's highly unlikely this will be found in boats.

I also realise that the universal antifreeze that's the subject of this thread is a different colour again (yellow?). Other universal antifreeze is also available, but not seen it in blue or red, which seem to be reserved for the 2 types above. 

[LadyG]

53 minutes ago, AndrewIC said:

Ta. The last lot I had was Holt’s blue concentrated, but it appears that Holt’s and Prestone are now part of the same family.

 

incidentally, that Prestone link does claim compatibility with “all fluid colours”, and “all engines, new and old”, and suitability for a complete flush or for topping up (i.e. mixing fluids).

Well, that's the stuff for me, I retract my statement above, in the light of this new evidence

PS I understand some kinds are attractive to dogs, and can be fatal if ingested.

Edited November 26, 2022 by LadyG

[Momac]

 

3 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Well, that's the stuff for me, I retract my statement above, in the light of this new evidence

PS I understand some kinds are attractive to dogs, and can be fatal if ingested.

Yes. 

Cats too and any animals really. 

Its  sweet tasting apparently, certainly smells  sweet  - but poisonous

 

 

[Tom and Bex]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I understand some kinds are attractive to dogs, and can be fatal if ingested.

Not just dogs but all animals and all antifreeze to my knowledge. Also children at high risk - it tastes sweet hence it's attractiveness. 

[Eeyore]

16 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

Not just dogs but all animals and all antifreeze to my knowledge. Also children at high risk - it tastes sweet hence it's attractiveness. 

And for us old enough to remember such things, part of a scandal involving some wine suppliers!

It is of course the corrosion inhibitors that primarily determine the life of "antifreeze".

[Momac]

42 minutes ago, Tom and Bex said:

This is widely said, but is there any evidence that commonly available aftermarket antifreeze is sold in anything other than blue for the "old" 2 year  antifreeze, or red for the "newer" 10 year antifreeze? I appreciate some car manufactures may use different colours for their own branded antifreeze, but suggest it's highly unlikely this will be found in boats.

I also realise that the universal antifreeze that's the subject of this thread is a different colour again (yellow?). Other universal antifreeze is also available, but not seen it in blue or red, which seem to be reserved for the 2 types above. 

The old school stuff I have put in just now  is blue but can be bought elsewhere at quite  a lot greater cost in green

I might prefer green as that is the colour of the engine makers branded coolant but it costs a lot more.🙂

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

And don't forget that Diethylene Glycol (the major constituent of antifreeze) which desrtoys your liver is "commonly" found in Austrain Wine (well - in 1985 it virtually singlehandedly destroyed the Austrian Wine producers)

 

 

When DEG enters the body, it causes necrosis of the liver and damages neurons, making them unable to adequately carry electrical signals. DEG poisoning commonly results in death or paralysis, like in 2006 where DEG tainted cough syrup killed 216 people in Panama.

[Jon57]

1 hour ago, philjw said:

If you can get in there, Costco sell Prestone concentrate in 5 litres.

 

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

By the way the antifreeze is nor just for frost protection.

It increases the boiling point and helps protect the cooling system against corrosion.

 

Had a problem with overheating on the boat when I first got it . Flushed all the systems out and used this Prestone antifreeze neat. Mixied at 50/50 ratio. Worked a treat. Don’t know if it was flush or the new antifreeze. As already mentioned it does increase the cooling capacity. Used about 25 litres. At £13 for 5ltr at the time . Supposed to have a 10 yr life span. Probably more than me .🤣

[Momac]

1 minute ago, Eeyore said:

And for us old enough to remember such things, part of a scandal involving some wine suppliers!

It is of course the corrosion inhibitors that primarily determine the life of "antifreeze".

Yes . 

The reduced corrosion protection  is probably why is had a load of crud in the system. Never again . Coolant change including a good flush with water  every 2 years max is my plan. 

 

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, Tom and Bex said:

This is widely said, but is there any evidence that commonly available aftermarket antifreeze is sold in anything other than blue for the "old" 2 year  antifreeze, or red for the "newer" 10 year antifreeze? 

 

I thought most of the red stuff was 5 years?

[Tonka]

3 hours ago, AndrewIC said:

Ta. The last lot I had was Holt’s blue concentrated, but it appears that Holt’s and Prestone are now part of the same family.

 

incidentally, that Prestone link does claim compatibility with “all fluid colours”, and “all engines, new and old”, and suitability for a complete flush or for topping up (i.e. mixing fluids).

Did you add the (I.e. mixing fluids) because if you are topping up you are not necessarily mixing fluids

[AndrewIC]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

Did you add the (I.e. mixing fluids) because if you are topping up you are not necessarily mixing fluids

I refer to https://www.holtsauto.com/prestone/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/10/Prestone-Coolant-Antifreeze-Leaflet.pdf, where it says: “Mixes safely with ANY coolant/antifreeze already in the system, reducing degradation and improving its performance by repairing the stability and corrosion protection.”

 

But anyway, if you top up fluid A with fluid B, good luck keeping them unmixed thereafter (assuming them to be miscible, of course).

[matty40s]

49 minutes ago, AndrewIC said:

 

But anyway, if you top up fluid A with fluid B, good luck keeping them unmixed thereafter (assuming them to be miscible, of course).

The fluids will not necessarily mix at all, quite often when topping up, you have to completely bleed each radiator from the top valves to mix the old and new coolant.

[ditchcrawler]

On 26/11/2022 at 07:42, MtB said:

I called into a motor factor a few days ago to get some antifreeze and to my surprise, they had a new type of antifreeze on sale which claims to be totally universal. 

 

No more stressing about what antifreeze is in the engine now, blue, pink, OAT, or whatever, just bung this stuff in and it will be totally compatible. Apparently. Yippee. 

 

https://prestone.com/product/prestone-all-vehicles-antifreezecoolant-ready-to-use/

 

 

 

 

Does it have a negative temperature expansion coefficient ?

 Too much coolant also risks damage to the system, as coolant needs room to expand when cold. Without this room, parts can become cracked and damaged.  

[Cheshire cat]

I notice they make one for Asian vehicles. Is this what I need for my Kubota based Beta? 🙄

[LadyG]

On 26/11/2022 at 22:11, matty40s said:

The fluids will not necessarily mix at all, quite often when topping up, you have to completely bleed each radiator from the top valves to mix the old and new coolant.

Hmm, i,'m thinking about adding a litre of the Screwfix universal in to my engine, because I think I may have diluted it, it's not a closed system, there is an overflow which goes to the bilge.

Im not sure how to drain the two radiators, but there is a top up plastic container, lid missing, and I assume is Webasto, should I put some diluted antifreeze in there, I can't see it mixing with the rest of the system unless I drain out most of rads . A year ago one rad (of two) went cold, it was bled, but it is warm when the other is hot, not sure if it would ever get to hot. 

PS I have a back boiler which is very effective, I'm not sure if it has a top up reservoir.

[LadyG]

On 26/11/2022 at 19:06, MartynG said:

Yes . 

The reduced corrosion protection  is probably why is had a load of crud in the system. Never again . Coolant change including a good flush with water  every 2 years max is my plan. 

 

Is this the heating radiators?

On 26/11/2022 at 19:02, Jon57 said:

 

Had a problem with overheating on the boat when I first got it . Flushed all the systems out and used this Prestone antifreeze neat. Mixied at 50/50 ratio. Worked a treat. Don’t know if it was flush or the new antifreeze. As already mentioned it does increase the cooling capacity. Used about 25 litres. At £13 for 5ltr at the time . Supposed to have a 10 yr life span. Probably more than me .🤣

So,  @Jon57 has a fifty litre capacity system, is this the heating radiators, or the engine cooling system.

do both have to be drained and flushed, I'm a bit nervous about draining and flushing the engine system in case it causes problems, which I don't have now!

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Hmm, i,'m thinking about adding a litre of the Screwfix universal in to my engine, because I think I may have diluted it, it's not a closed system, there is an overflow which goes to the bilge.

Im not sure how to drain the two radiators, but there is a top up plastic container, lid missing, and I assume is Webasto, should I put some diluted antifreeze in there, I can't see it mixing with the rest of the system unless I drain out most of rads . A year ago one rad (of two) went cold, it was bled, but it is warm when the other is hot, not sure if it would ever get to hot. 

PS I have a back boiler which is very effective, I'm not sure if it has a top up reservoir.

 

If it is a gravity system then it is very important to premix the antifreeze so it all has a consistent density. If you don't then hot antifreeze is denser than hot water/weaker antifreeze solution and will be very reluctant to rise when heated. If there is a circulation pump involved and parallel paths then given time it will usually mix itself in the system.

 

I don't see how a back boiler system can be safe if it does not have a header tank but it might share the one the boiler uses. I am afraid this is another case of needed to get involved with the nitty gritty of your boat. Possibly draw out the pipework diagram so you can see the flow path(s) and understand how it is supposed to work.

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

Is this the heating radiators?

So,  @Jon57 has a fifty litre capacity system, is this the heating radiators, or the engine cooling system.

do both have to be drained and flushed, I'm a bit nervous about draining and flushing the engine system in case it causes problems, which I don't have now!

 

 

The cooling system and any central heating system on the majority of boats should be separate systems to allow the engine system to be pressurized. The history of your ownership suggest this might not be a safe assumption for your boat so, again, I think it is time to draw out a diagram.

[LadyG]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If it is a gravity system then it is very important to premix the antifreeze so it all has a consistent density. If you don't then hot antifreeze is denser than hot water/weaker antifreeze solution and will be very reluctant to rise when heated. If there is a circulation pump involved and parallel paths then given time it will usually mix itself in the system.

 

I don't see how a back boiler system can be safe if it does not have a header tank but it might share the one the boiler uses. I am afraid this is another case of needed to get involved with the nitty gritty of your boat. Possibly draw out the pipework diagram so you can see the flow path(s) and understand how it is supposed to work.

I understand what you are saying  @Tony Brooks but I am just as likely to mis-identify parts, as to correctly identify parts, so although I have a look round the boat and in the engine hole,  I'm not sure what I am looking at: I had someone from the boatyard bleed the rads, and I recall he had to dismantle some box to access something, but I'm no clearer as to what it was or whether he found what he was looking for... ...

[Tony Brooks]

13 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I understand what you are saying  @Tony Brooks but I am just as likely to mis-identify parts, as to correctly identify parts, so although I have a look round the boat and in the engine hole,  I'm not sure what I am looking at: I had someone from the boatyard bleed the rads, and I recall he had to dismantle some box to access something, but I'm no clearer as to what it was or whether he found what he was looking for... ...

 

I do understand what you are saying but no one can offer sensible advice, especially for a boat that appears to be idiosyncratic, without knowing the basic facts. Now, you can either pay someone to find those facts for you and raw an accurate diagram or you can spend time and no doubt deal with a degree of confusion, to find out for yourself. This may mean taking panels down and such like to see where the pipes go. If you can trace the pipe runs and post photos of the diagram so far and whatever items you can't identify there is a very good chance that the forum will be able to help. Tracing the pipes should eventually lead you to that box that was dismantled.

[Momac]

41 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Is this the heating radiators?

 

 

No. Engine cooling plus calorifier in my case.

[Jon57]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Is this the heating radiators?

So,  @Jon57 has a fifty litre capacity system, is this the heating radiators, or the engine cooling system.

do both have to be drained and flushed, I'm a bit nervous about draining and flushing the engine system in case it causes problems, which I don't have now!

 

Cooling only 😭