Engine clank

[GBW]

9 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Can you see that written on the side of the nozzle? It should be etched on the side.

 

Alec

Yes it is.

[GBW]

(I thought I could edit).

I'm wrong - there are two holes (higher powered loupe!).

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, GBW said:

(I thought I could edit).

I'm wrong - there are two holes (higher powered loupe!).

 

Are they one in the center of the little bump - a big one, and a very small one on the side of the bump? If so, and as long as they are the same length as the existing one they should be correct. If the holes are any different then they may not be as described. Thee have been some odd things sold as BMC nozzles, some Perkins ones are very similar but too long so they damage the top hats.

 

Don't lose or misplace the pegs in the injector body, they locate the nozzle so the auxiliary spray goes in the correct direction.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[GBW]

Thanks Tony.  Yes holes as you describe.  The pin on one of the  injectors for the spare engine was seized solid.  I extracted it by holding the body in the lathe chuck and using a drill chuck in the top slide to pull it out.  An hour with the ultrasonics seemed to fix it and the pressure and spray pattern seem ok.

[Tony Brooks]

31 minutes ago, GBW said:

Thanks Tony.  Yes holes as you describe.  The pin on one of the  injectors for the spare engine was seized solid.  I extracted it by holding the body in the lathe chuck and using a drill chuck in the top slide to pull it out.  An hour with the ultrasonics seemed to fix it and the pressure and spray pattern seem ok.

 

You have a well set up workshop. I doubt you could clean the small hole without the ultrasonic bath. The injector shops also use caustic baths. On the hire fleet I recon I was only successful in poking out the small hole with wire and pin holder in about  20% of the nozzles. No caustic or ultrasonic bath though.

[GBW]

I remembered these;-   They are wedges to separate a chuck from its taper.  (The magnetic tray is there to enable standing one on edge).  Although the gap is too small to fit around the injector, they reminded me that I have a piece of tapered plate that I can cut some from.  Might be a useful idea for others.

[GBW]

Update;-

The wedge helped but it was difficult to get a decent swing at it in the confined surroundings.

I removed the studs and could tap the inject round (with a brass bar).  Then it came out.

Back at base, the spray pattern looks good, both holes squirting and the pressure seems right.

I came to the conclusion a heel bar would be best.  Back to ebay!

[Tony Brooks]

34 minutes ago, GBW said:

Update;-

The wedge helped but it was difficult to get a decent swing at it in the confined surroundings.

I removed the studs and could tap the inject round (with a brass bar).  Then it came out.

Back at base, the spray pattern looks good, both holes squirting and the pressure seems right.

I came to the conclusion a heel bar would be best.  Back to ebay!

 

Heel bar, I agree.

 

Not sure about your knowledge but I have aminor concern that if you have had such a struggle to get th einjector out that it might have come out wth the top hat heat shield still attached. The 1.5 (and presumaby the 1.8) are the only diesels I know that have that pssibility. If you don't know what I am on about perhaps post a photo of the removed injector.

[Tracy D'arth]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Heel bar, I agree.

 

Not sure about your knowledge but I have aminor concern that if you have had such a struggle to get th einjector out that it might have come out wth the top hat heat shield still attached. The 1.5 (and presumaby the 1.8) are the only diesels I know that have that pssibility. If you don't know what I am on about perhaps post a photo of the removed injector.

If the top hat heat shields are still in the head, get a strong light and have a real good look down the holes, its not unknown for parts of them to fall off into the pre-combustion chamber and ultimately get into the piston and produce a knock. The fact that the injectors were hard to remove is part of the symptom of broken heat shields due to carbon build up.

[GBW]

The injector is without its shield.  A peer down the injector hole on the spare engine shows me what your are talking about (you are right to query my knowledge Tony - but I am learning!)

Next time on the boat. I'll check the state for presence and condition.

[Tony Brooks]

Make sure you hook the fire/atomisation washer out of the bottom of the top hat - easier said than done - and fit new ones.  I think the fire washer may obscure some damage to the top hat.

[Tracy D'arth]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Make sure you hook the fire/atomisation washer out of the bottom of the top hat - easier said than done - and fit new ones.  I think the fire washer may obscure some damage to the top hat.

Excellent point, I forget that the OP may not know that they are down there. The fire washer is the thin crinkly steel one, a magnet MAY lift them out once loosened.

[Tony Brooks]

32 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Excellent point, I forget that the OP may not know that they are down there. The fire washer is the thin crinkly steel one, a magnet MAY lift them out once loosened.

 

I found the only way was to take an old long, small, flat screwdriver and try to drive the washer round. After much frustration and damage to the washer it would turn so I could hook it out with my brush hook (that is brush as in motors & dynamos).

 

It is also important that the OP does not put a new one down the hole until he is sure the old one is out.

[GBW]

Would "crinkle atomiser washer" be another description for the fire washer?

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, GBW said:

Would "crinkle atomiser washer" be another description for the fire washer?

 

Yes, see the quote from my post below. Both terms used. When you get the new ones or an old one out all should become clear.

 

59 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Make sure you hook the fire/atomisation washer

 

[GBW]

There was no atomisation washer in the installed engine (and no trace of a disintegrated one).  Were they always fitted?

The spray from the injector looked excessive even though the pressure was correct.  I replaced the nozzle with the new one (referenced above) which gave a much better defined spray.   I refitted the injector using a new atomiser washer.

Being cold, the engine took a long time to start and then was very lumpy possibly due to remnants of air in the lines.  When warmed up, it did seem to run more smoothly than previously but I didn't have time to run it long enough to check if the clank had disappeared.

Once the weather warms up, I'll try again and report back.

[Tracy D'arth]

Atomiser, fire washers, the crinkly steel ones, are always fitted. Without it the carbon can build up around the injector and jam it in the head.

You are sure that there was not an old one in there?  Putting 2 in can break out the end of the top hat.

I Hope it is better, are the other 3 injectors OK?

[Tony Brooks]

Agree with Tracy.

 

However, the poor starting may indicate some glow plugs have failed or they need removing and the carbon in the hole around glow plug pin needs drilling out. A well known problem with poor starting 1.5s.

 

[GBW]

Maybe that was why the injector was so difficult to extract.  The injector does now sit higher than the others.  Reason could be two atomisers in cylinder or none in the others.

On the spare engine, the injectors just drop in - a rattly fit and the gap between the flange and the head, with no washer inserted, is the same as the ones on the boat engine.

Is it possible to extract the top hat to be sure?  Certainly they don't want to move on the spare head.

I haven't checked the others.  I need to make something to ease the extraction.

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Agree with Tracy.

 

However, the poor starting may indicate some glow plugs have failed or they need removing and the carbon in the hole around glow plug pin needs drilling out. A well known problem with poor starting 1.5s.

 

As I explained, I monitor the current to the glow plugs and it was normal.  I will check for fouling round the plug hole.  Is there not a danger of pushing the carbon into the combustion chamber or will it just be blown out?

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, GBW said:

 

Is it possible to extract the top hat to be sure?  Certainly they don't want to move on the spare head.

 

Yes, but it will probably destroy it. You can try a hook down the little hole but I think a tap on the end of a slide hammer screwed into the little hole may be better. Otherwise, I fear it is head off and try to drift it out via the throat.

 

Have you had a small rotary wire brush down the injector hole to get through the carbon to the metal? If you try it spin the engine on the starter to blow any carbon out of the engine, keep your eyes clear of the spray of carbon particles.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, GBW said:

Maybe that was why the injector was so difficult to extract.  The injector does now sit higher than the others.  Reason could be two atomisers in cylinder or none in the others.

On the spare engine, the injectors just drop in - a rattly fit and the gap between the flange and the head, with no washer inserted, is the same as the ones on the boat engine.

Is it possible to extract the top hat to be sure?  Certainly they don't want to move on the spare head.

I haven't checked the others.  I need to make something to ease the extraction.

As I explained, I monitor the current to the glow plugs and it was normal.  I will check for fouling round the plug hole.  Is there not a danger of pushing the carbon into the combustion chamber or will it just be blown out?

 

First of all I would advise that you only try to remove the glow pugs when the engine is warm. Then you need to worry them out. Tighten a little and then loosen a little, keep doing this, turning them a little further each time.

 

You may well snap the pin off the end of the plug and if you do you will need to drill it out (7/64" I think - Tracy will confirm). On the fleet, when this happened, we always drilled them out in place and did not take the head off. Grease the bit and start to drill, after a few moments wipe the drill off and re-grease. When done, spin the engine as above to blow any carbon out. The very tip of the pin may stay in the pre-combustion chamber or it may drop into the cylinder but we never found it created a problem, although I can't guarantee that will be the case.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

First of all I would advise that you only try to remove the glow pugs when the engine is warm. Then you need to worry them out. Tighten a little and then loosen a little, keep doing this, turning them a little further each time.

 

You may well snap the pin off the end of the plug and if you do you will need to drill it out (7/64" I think - Tracy will confirm). On the fleet, when this happened, we always drilled them out in place and did not take the head off. Grease the bit and start to drill, after a few moments wipe the drill off and re-grease. When done, spin the engine as above to blow any carbon out. The very tip of the pin may stay in the pre-combustion chamber or it may drop into the cylinder but we never found it created a problem, although I can't guarantee that will be the case.

7/64" to drill out a heater tip, 11/64" to clean out the hole of carbon before fitting a new heater plug.  Very carefully, not allowing the drill to snag and break.

Never had a problem with bits left in the Ricardo precombustion chamber. Either they are small enough to pass through the engine or they rattle away and disintegrate, decoking the chamber as they go, then disappear.

[GBW]

I have in the past changed a couple of the glow plugs.  I don't recall any difficulty.

I am sure the engine will appreciate warmer weather.  It normally starts immediately.

[Rincewind]

22 hours ago, GBW said:

Is it possible to extract the top hat to be sure?  Certainly they don't want to move on the spare head.

I haven't checked the others.  I need to make something to ease the extraction.

 

22 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Yes, but it will probably destroy it. You can try a hook down the little hole but I think a tap on the end of a slide hammer screwed into the little hole may be better. Otherwise, I fear it is head off and try to drift it out via the throat.

Before you go to the trouble of removing the head, here is another method of Top Hat removal you may wish to consider.  If you measure the OD of a new Top Hat (the body, not the brim) you will find it is 17.44mm diameter with an internal diameter of 14.54mm. This enables you to use a 5/8 UNF tap to cut a thread into the old Top Hat without fear of cutting into the cylinder head itself as the OD of the tap is less than the OD of the Top Hat.  e.g. A 5/8 UNF tap has a diameter of 15.8mm and a root diameter of approx. 14.5mm, (and as a bonus, the recommended tap drill size is 14.5mm!) – (ensure the tap is aligned correctly when cutting the thread).  You may find, as you do so, that the force required to cut a thread into the Top Hat is enough to break the hold of both the carbon deposits and the copper washer underneath the brim and, if you are lucky, then the Top Hat will come away attached to the tap.  If not, then a suitable bolt screwed tightly into the freshly formed thread along with steady uniform extraction force applied to the underside of the bolt head will be enough to remove the Top Hat. I do not advocate the use of a slide hammer on this potentially fragile thread as the shock forces induced will most likely fracture and strip the threads.  Fill the flutes of the tap with grease to prevent swarf from falling into the combustion chamber.

[GBW]

Thanks.

I only asked about removing the top hat to check if there was an atomiser washer present.

It seems that whoever rebuilt the engine, omitted the atomiser washers.   I do not understand their function unless it is only to stop blow back.