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'pointless' Need some help collecting narrowboat data


toppy007

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44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That Covid is still rampant.

 

Okay. Look I'm not trying to rub anyone up the wrong way. My written English is not very good so please don't make fun of it. 

 

I don't really understand what the issue is with being a boat owner and asking people for information about the boat they have to help my research project. 

 

I'm not forcing anyone into it, and I'm not asking if what I'm doing is pointless. And I don't want anyone to give me what they would regard as private information.

 

Its up to you

 

If you want to know anything about the project. Just ask.

 

More than happy to explain my hypothesis.

 

 

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Well I've done it as best I can.  I do think that quite a few questions need rewording to make it clear that the answers all need to relate to the time the boat was valued, otherwise your results will be meaningless.  I also think that the questions and possible answers need to be a lot more detailled if you are to acheive anything useful.  For example, my boat used to have a 2000w inverter which cost £125 from Amazon.  It now has a 500w inverter which cost over £200, because it's a much better built inverter. Your question doesn't take any account of this.  In fact from bow to stern of a narrowboat, there are so many potential variables that you would need 100s of detailled questions to start to gain a useful insight into value.  This is why valuing of narrowboats is done by people who have taken a fair while to thoroughly inspect the boat.

 

I admire your idea, i just don't think it can work in any useful way.  Narrowboats are not like cars in that a specific make/model/trim/year/condition algorithm will give a fairly good valuation.

 

For that to work for a boat, you would need people to input literally hundreds of things to get any kind of useful output.  People don't have the patience for that.

Edited by doratheexplorer
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13 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

Well I've done it as best I can.  I do think that quite a few questions need rewording to make it clear that the answers all need to relate to the time the boat was valued, otherwise your results will be meaningless.  I also think that the questions and possible answers need to be a lot more detailled if you are to acheive anything useful.  For example, my boat used to have a 2000w inverter which cost £125 from Amazon.  It now has a 500w inverter which cost over £200, because it's a much better built inverter. Your question doesn't take any account of this.  In fact from bow to stern of a narrowboat, there are so many potential variables that you would need 100s of detailled questions to start to gain a useful insight into value.  This is why valuing of narrowboats is done by people who have taken a fair while to thoroughly inspect the boat.

 

I admire your idea, i just don't think it can work in any useful way.  Narrowboats are not like cars in that a specific make/model/trim/year/condition algorithm will give a fairly good valuation.

 

For that to work for a boat, you would need people to input literally hundreds of things to get any kind of useful output.  People don't have the patience for that.

Thanks for the input 

 

And I yes I think I might reword some of these questions. and I completely agree with you on the variables needed.

 

thank you again

 

 

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I completed it and found it pretty straightforward. The answers are reasonably good. One question I couldn't answer properly is the date when the fit-out was completed, as it isn't (I entered the completion date as 2022 which is after the purchase date but it isn't actually done yet). Buying a part-completed project is a relatively common situation so that might be worth capturing as an option.


Alec

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On 21/11/2022 at 14:39, Alan de Enfield said:

What’s the difference between “affect” and “effect"

1 • Affect is a verb – “to affect” – meaning to influence or have an impact on something.

2 • Effect is the noun – “an effect (a positive or a negative effect) is the result of being affected by something. 

Edited Monday at 14:42 by Alan de Enfield

Not the whole story.

Effect is also a verb meaning to accomplish, to complete, to do.

From Wiki:

Affect and effect are sometimes confused. Affect conveys influence over something that already exists, but effect indicates the manifestation of new or original ideas or entities:

  • "...new policies have effected major changes in government."
  • "...new policies have affected major changes in government."

The former indicates that major changes were made as a result of new policies, while the latter indicates that before new policies, major changes were in place, and that the new policies had some influence over these existing changes.

The verbal noun uses of affect are distinguished from the verbal noun uses of effect more clearly than the regular verb forms. An affect is something that acts or acted upon something else. However, an effect is the result of an action (by something else).

 

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On 20/11/2022 at 10:02, Loddon said:

Neither the shell builder or the fit out company for my boat were listed so I gave up as I could go no further.

1) This also applies to my boat.

2). It also needs N/A (Not Applicable) or don't know for a number of questions.

3). When was B S Cert. & similar.  Should be how much time remaining.  

4). Date. Year only would probably more helpful.

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Filled out 😁 took all of about 5 minutes, cheers. Interested in your project too, I'm assuming it's for college or uni? Would it be possible for you to make the model available once you've completed it? Have you also potentially thought about scraping sites like Apollo Duck, eBay, etc for data? Obviously it won't be as rich as a survey with regards to condition Vs price, but with ML sometimes quantity over quality eh? 😉

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5 hours ago, sigsegv said:

Filled out 😁 took all of about 5 minutes, cheers. Interested in your project too, I'm assuming it's for college or uni? Would it be possible for you to make the model available once you've completed it? Have you also potentially thought about scraping sites like Apollo Duck, eBay, etc for data? Obviously it won't be as rich as a survey with regards to condition Vs price, but with ML sometimes quantity over quality eh? 😉

ML does not invalidate GIGO!

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3 hours ago, Mike Todd said:

ML does not invalidate GIGO!

Can't argue with that, for sure! But at least successful sales, while not necessarily being complete entries in the set, could be considered not entirely garbage. I guess I'm biased cause a lot of projects I've worked on in the past have relied heavily on scraped data 😅

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17 hours ago, sigsegv said:

Can't argue with that, for sure! But at least successful sales, while not necessarily being complete entries in the set, could be considered not entirely garbage. I guess I'm biased cause a lot of projects I've worked on in the past have relied heavily on scraped data 😅

Scraped (as in screen scraped) or scrapped (as in discarded)? 

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9 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Scraped (as in screen scraped) or scrapped (as in discarded)? 

Scraped as in using automated tools/writing programs to take the text from web pages and do *stuff* with it, though oftentimes before that data ends up scrapped due to the site going down or otherwise becoming less accessible.

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16 minutes ago, sigsegv said:

Scraped as in using automated tools/writing programs to take the text from web pages and do *stuff* with it, though oftentimes before that data ends up scrapped due to the site going down or otherwise becoming less accessible.

Thanks for clearing that up. 

 

I had a couple of hours spare last weekend and scraped the Apollo Duck website (using AWK) as discussed earlier in this thread. I am exŧracting data for 500+ narrow boats defined as Trad, Semi Trad and Cruiser Stern (but excluding other types).

 

Type

Length

Asking Price

Year

Location

 

Output is a csv file suitable for input to a spreadsheet or database.

 

It mostly works ...

 

 

 

 

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I have a suspicion that scraping the websites to get the data would not satisfy the OP's project specification so the suggestions from more than one of us that it may be the best way to get a lot of semi-reliable data seems to have been ignored. I think a questionnaire is what the specification demands. Probably with little regard for the veracity and quality of data produced.

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19 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

I have a suspicion that scraping the websites to get the data would not satisfy the OP's project specification so the suggestions from more than one of us that it may be the best way to get a lot of semi-reliable data seems to have been ignored. I think a questionnaire is what the specification demands. Probably with little regard for the veracity and quality of data produced.

It will give a reliable evidence of asking prices but not much help with  selling prices. This has been the issue from the start as not many places are willing to disclose the latter with any degree of confidence (have do you eliminate bragging?) Not like houses where selling prices have to be registered.

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

It will give a reliable evidence of asking prices but not much help with  selling prices. This has been the issue from the start as not many places are willing to disclose the latter with any degree of confidence (have do you eliminate bragging?) Not like houses where selling prices have to be registered.

 

I agree, and it is why I felt it ill conceived from the start, but if it meets the project specification so be it. I feel it is a pity the educational establishments feel it is acceptable to rely upon peoples good will year in and year out.

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29 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I agree, and it is why I felt it ill conceived from the start, but if it meets the project specification so be it. I feel it is a pity the educational establishments feel it is acceptable to rely upon peoples good will year in and year out.

One of the problems is that it creates the false impression that (good) data can be acquired for free. At a professional level, such data always (always) costs. Usually rather more than many on the periphery of such activities will be expecting. Students really ought to be given projects that give them some understanding of the 'real' world in which they will eventually have to work.

 

One of the other problems is the failure to incorporate evaluations of data reliability. A trivial example: in recent times I have become increasingly aware of the limitations of blood pressure readings (guess why?) Even with the better manual readings (using a stethoscope) rather than automated ones, with readings taken in quick succession the size of the variation is surprising, well outside the band that affects decision making. In almost any other equipment such a performance would be laughed out of court.

 

Another of my pet hates are surveys that ask respondents to rate something on a scale, usually with no good reason on a 1-10 (or perhaps 0-10) but without any indication of what a particular level might mean. In some cases the results are even explicitly skewed - a car retailer tells its customers that they need to give it 10 out of 10 as anything less will be used by the head office to indicate less than satisfactory! Guess what most replies are?

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3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Another of my pet hates are surveys that ask respondents to rate something on a scale, usually with no good reason on a 1-10 (or perhaps 0-10) but without any indication of what a particular level might mean. In some cases the results are even explicitly skewed - a car retailer tells its customers that they need to give it 10 out of 10 as anything less will be used by the head office to indicate less than satisfactory! Guess what most replies are?

 

That really gets my goat. Buy something from a number  of retailers or use some kind of service and an automated "please complete our survey" pops into your inbox. The latest was Argos and our dentists. Then there follows a number of "rate us" questions such as you describe with no option anywhere to give feedback that might be useful to them. Banks and Nationwide are worse, lovely helpful staff but dire policies and demand on customers sent from head office. They never ask you to rate head office functions.

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That really gets my goat. Buy something from a number  of retailers or use some kind of service and an automated "please complete our survey" pops into your inbox. The latest was Argos and our dentists. Then there follows a number of "rate us" questions such as you describe with no option anywhere to give feedback that might be useful to them. Banks and Nationwide are worse, lovely helpful staff but dire policies and demand on customers sent from head office. They never ask you to rate head office functions.

The best ones are where the survey comes up before you have used the site of bought the goods

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8 hours ago, sigsegv said:

could've taken you 0 letters to say nothing at all too mate, but who's counting?

:) 

 

You are, of course, entitled to mangle the language in any way you choose.

Maybe you also think gifted is the new word for gave. When I were a lad some of my friends at school were gifted. They still lived with their birth parents, though.

 

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