Heating a widebeam

[Hailiwidebeam]

I have a HUGE stove on my widebeam that just eats everything! It’s becoming a hassle and I cannot afford to keep it run through out winter. I mean it needs almost half a bag of coal which still doesn’t get my through the morning. I’ve ordered a coal cage which hopefully will help me a little but I feel like it will not heat the boat enough. I want to get a new heating system installed. Webasto? Diesel heaters? Radiators? What systems do you have or can reccomed me. Thanks! 

[LadyG]

You don't say if you have shorepower, this is likely to be cheapest source of units of electricity, and probably a good source of warmth.

I have a Webasto with radiators, but it uses both diesel and electricity, so if you have to run the engine there is another cost. I use the stove in preference, Webasto kicks in on thermostat, eg 16/17 degrees but it is noisy, slow to heat the boat but quick to cool off 

I'm afraid that even though the weather has been mild, my stove has already cost about £120, this month, and I've put through an order of £185 which I hope will last the month 24/7. I think Excell was £13.50 last year and £17 now, plus the 5%tax.

The only thing I can suggest is you try the coal cage and try to set the stove to a lower heat. Make sure the stove door is well sealed. I use premium fuel, it's £17.70 per 25kg. Worth while finding a good supplier, don't buy stuff from garages or grocery type supermarkets.

I have curtains lined with insulated lining materials, that helps summer and winter . I also have big thick curtains at doors £120 Ebay again this insulates.

Make sure your CO alarms are working.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by LadyG

[Bod]

Exactly which stove do you have, and how big is the widebeam?

Which brand of coal are you using?

Questions that need answers if you are going to get realistic replies.

 

Bod

[LadyG]

30 minutes ago, Bod said:

Exactly which stove do you have, and how big is the widebeam?

Which brand of coal are you using?

Questions that need answers if you are going to get realistic replies.

 

Bod

The other strategy is to reduce the area he keeps warm, curtain off the galley, shower, bedroom. Opening it up overnight 

Layers of clothing, that's OK, but I suspect he has the same problem I have in that it is difficult to control the stove output  of course he can use the stove top for slow cooking, and warming kettles of water, thus reducing gas usage.

Edited November 15, 2022 by LadyG

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Hailiwidebeam said:

I have a HUGE stove on my widebeam that just eats everything! It’s becoming a hassle and I cannot afford to keep it run through out winter. I mean it needs almost half a bag of coal which still doesn’t get my through the morning. I’ve ordered a coal cage which hopefully will help me a little but I feel like it will not heat the boat enough. I want to get a new heating system installed. Webasto? Diesel heaters? Radiators? What systems do you have or can reccomed me. Thanks! 

What's the size of the widebeam? Length/beam of the cabin? What is the power of the stove? Make/model of stove?

 

An alternative to a coal cage, which I've not used, is to reduce the grate area with fire bricks, which I have. I'd probably want to try the coal cage, or other way of reducing the grate area, before looking at a different heating system. Reducing the grate area with bricks will keep all the bottom air flowing through the coals, which a coal cage won't.

Have you spent an entire winter on board yet? If this is your first, then so far, this autumn has been mild. Were I am, we haven't even had a frost yet. Before making major changes, like a smaller stove, it is worth getting through the coldest days to get more of an appreciation of how big a stove is really needed.

Solid fuel, either smokeless, or wood, in a stove is still going to be cheaper than burning diesel, though it loses out on both convenience and cleanliness. Many boats have both. Diesel is good for giving the boat a quick warm up on a cold spring, or autumn morning, before it warms up during the day.

Solid fuel stoves tend to clag up with soot more quickly, if they are being run with the air flow stopped right down. They are better being run hard, so a smaller stove, provided it can produce enough heat for a cold day, is better than a too large stove.

[David Mack]

Is your HUGE stove heating the space adequately? Do you have to fling all the doors and windows wide due to the amount of heat it is producing? Or are you shivering under a blanket? If the former, then reducing the stove output (or replacing it with a smaller stove), will be the best course of action and will reduce your fuel consumption. If the latter I suspect you may have inadequate insulation or too much ventilation.

Either way, solid fuel is a cheaper way to heat your boat than diesel or gas.

[Dav and Pen]

On our 22m barge the only heat was a diesel heater in which we used red diesel but could have used heating oil, admittedly the price wasn’t so high as now. The beauty of the thing was that it used no power , was controllable, could be left on tick over overnight or turned off when the morning initial chill had gone and no mess.

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

You don't say if you have shorepower, this is likely to be cheapest source of units of electricity, and probably a good source of warmth.

 

 

With a 16 amp mains supply you would only be able to run a 3.75kW electric heater such as a big 3kW oil filled rad and that's with most other high draw appliances switched off. That's not going to be enough to heat a widebeam in the depths of winter.

57 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

An alternative to a coal cage, which I've not used, is to reduce the grate area with fire bricks, which I have. 

 

That's what I've done too. I have a couple of big engineering bricks on each side of my 9kW stove. It means I can have smaller fires. It probably takes a bit longer to heat the stove up but it acts like a storage heater and takes longer to cool down too.

[blackrose]

2 hours ago, Hailiwidebeam said:

I have a HUGE stove on my widebeam that just eats everything! It’s becoming a hassle and I cannot afford to keep it run through out winter. I mean it needs almost half a bag of coal which still doesn’t get my through the morning. I’ve ordered a coal cage which hopefully will help me a little but I feel like it will not heat the boat enough. I want to get a new heating system installed. Webasto? Diesel heaters? Radiators? What systems do you have or can reccomed me. Thanks! 

 

DON'T get rid of the stove yet. Live with it for a winter. You probably just haven't mastered it yet. I have a big stove and a webasto. If someone put a gun to my head and told me to rip one out it would be the webasto.

 

 

[LadyG]

7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

With a 16 amp mains supply you would only be able to run a 3.75kW electric heater such as a big 3kW oil filled rad and that's with most other high draw appliances switched off. That's not going to be enough to heat a widebeam in the depths of winter.

No it's not, but I was replying to OPs suggestion that he instal a Webasto, he would not be removing the stove. Keeping some heating on 24/7 is going to be required in winter either way.

I don't think OP is going to remove the stove, but he will learn how to manage it.

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by LadyG

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

No it's not, but I was replying to OPs suggestion that he instal a Webasto, he would not be removing the stove. Keeping some heating on 24/7 is going to be required in winter either way.

 

 

Yes I know what you were suggesting. But I was just telling the OP that he probably wasn't going to be able heat his whole boat with shore power in case he thought that he could.

[PD1964]

I believe his widebeam is 46’x13’ looking at his previous posts. Obviously would be best to know the make of fire and position in the boat and if the boat is open plan or more compartment with decent doors. I never worry about heating the bathroom, bedroom, rear of the boat, as prefer not to be too hot and have a good high Tog quilt for the winter.

 No matter what the outcome is, reality is that coal prices have gone up this year, so not that cheap anymore to throw coal on a fire all day and night, no matter what size boat you have.

Edited November 15, 2022 by PD1964

[Ex Brummie]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

What's the size of the widebeam? Length/beam of the cabin? What is the power of the stove? Make/model of stove?

 

An alternative to a coal cage, which I've not used, is to reduce the grate area with fire bricks, which I have.

i'd be inclined to put a coal cage or similar in the centre of the grate and light the fire round it. Extrafire bricks will stop the fire heating the stove sufficiently.

[MtB]

Put less coal on it and close the vents down more.

 

Sorted. 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

9 hours ago, MtB said:

Put less coal on it and close the vents down more.

 

Sorted. 

 

 

Which is where a coal cage, or fire bricks to reduce the grate area help. Coal fires like having a bit of depth to them. Concentrating a little coal in a small area and closing down the air vents more all help reduce consumption.

One thing that hasn't been asked yet of the OP. Have you checked the door seals and glass seals (and grate seals, if there is a seperate door) are in good condition. Leaks around these, apart from the safety risk, will allow more air in than you want. Worst case, a crack somewhere in the stove case will also let in more air and be an even worse safety risk.

Jen

Edited November 16, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[booke23]

15 hours ago, Hailiwidebeam said:

I mean it needs almost half a bag of coal which still doesn’t get my through the morning.

 

When you say half a bag....what size bag? 10kg? 20kg? 25kg? 

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

When you say half a bag....what size bag? 10kg? 20kg? 25kg? 

 

Good question. If it's half a 10kg bag a day, then I'd say that is normal consumption. On the low side in fact. 

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Boats are pretty rubbish for heating efficiency compared with a typical house. Relatively thin insulation, draughty doors and single glazed windows, lots of air vents, water underneath and up part of the sides, no shared walls with other boats. It only works because there is a smaller volume inside to heat than a house, especially on a narrowboat. A wide beam is less small than a narrowboat, so needs a bit more heating.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[booke23]

4 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Good question. If it's half a 10kg bag a day, then I'd say that is normal consumption. On the low side in fact. 

 

 

 

Exactly. 

 

To the OP, as mentioned you need to close the vents on your stove once it's lit. The coal will last much longer if you do this. However I remember you only bought your boat a few months ago.....is the stove in good condition? If the rope seals have gone you'll never be able to control the fire so it's worth checking this.

 

It's also worth experimenting with different types of smokeless coal as each stove reacts differently. For instance if I put about 3kg of Homefire Ovals my stove at home and close the vents it produces good heat for 30 hrs. If I try the same thing with Brazier it burns out in half the time.

 

As to alternative sources of heat on a narrowboat.....a drip feed diesel stove but that will be more expensive to run than a correctly functioning multifuel stove and will cost a few thousand pounds to have fitted.....ditto a webasto with radiators which in any case is not suitable as a primary means to heat a boat. 

 

If you can't get your stove to perform satisfactorily, I'd probably advise replacing it with a second hand Morso Squirrel.....they come up on Ebay and the going rate for a decent one seems to be about £500. 

[Hailiwidebeam]

Hi everyone! Thanks so much for everyone’s replies I will get back to them all. 
 

the boat is a 46ft 13ft wide, back engine room, main cabin which is open plan with the kitchen and front room. Separate bedroom at the front of boat. 
 

As for the stove I am unsure of the make. It apparently came out of a cottage. I’ve recently replaced the glass + checked for gaps ect and nothing of any sort. Below I will add some pictures. 
 

I’ll take your advice and give the coal cage a go. I lived on boats prior and never had a problem with stoves. This one however I just cannot seem to keep it lit. I get the coal burning well then add more with vents slightly open and it just seems to go out :-(! 
 

* picture is with the broken glass it’s not broken anymore *

[LadyG]

I have to nurse my stove: for days it works fine with coal as long as I lay them carefully with air gaps, today it was fine till this afternoon, although no change in wind, and I've had to put two lots of kindling and Firelighters to get it to go, and I've put a small dry log on to try to buil up the heat, so I sympathize.

Edited November 17, 2022 by LadyG

[bizzard]

10 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I have to nurse my stove: for days it works fine with coal as long as I lay them carefully with air gaps, today it was fine till this afternoon, although no change in wind, and I've had to put two lots of kindling and Firelighters to get it go, and I've put a small dry log on to try to buil up the heat, so I sympathize.

Sounds like the grate gets blocked with ash.  Should be enough gaps without making them. It's usually best to give the grate a good poking with the poker to clear ash each time you put more coal on.

[booke23]

1 hour ago, Hailiwidebeam said:

Hi everyone! Thanks so much for everyone’s replies I will get back to them all. 
 

the boat is a 46ft 13ft wide, back engine room, main cabin which is open plan with the kitchen and front room. Separate bedroom at the front of boat. 
 

As for the stove I am unsure of the make. It apparently came out of a cottage. I’ve recently replaced the glass + checked for gaps ect and nothing of any sort. Below I will add some pictures. 
 

I’ll take your advice and give the coal cage a go. I lived on boats prior and never had a problem with stoves. This one however I just cannot seem to keep it lit. I get the coal burning well then add more with vents slightly open and it just seems to go out :-(! 
 

* picture is with the broken glass it’s not broken anymore *

 

Are there rope seals on the screw out vents? If so are they ok?

It's possible it's just a rubbish stove....some are and just leak too much air into them to slumber the fire properly. If this is the case you might get better results with different types of coal but you'll have to experiment. 

 

It looks like it has a back boiler...does it also heat the radiators? If so you've got the gold standard in narrowboat (or widebeam) heating!

Edited November 17, 2022 by booke23

[LadyG]

25 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Sounds like the grate gets blocked with ash.  Should be enough gaps without making them. It's usually best to give the grate a good poking with the poker to clear ash each time you put more coal on.

No, it just seems to be the stove, If I clear the grate I seem to lose a lot of heat so it takes Firelighters plus kindling to get it going again. I try to keep a shovel with warm dry coals ready to top up, but the answer seems to be keeping everything quite hot.

[Bod]

"As for the stove I am unsure of the make. It apparently came out of a cottage."

This could be most of the problem, the flue, chimney is too short, not all domestic stoves work well in boats, with short flues. less than 2metres, most houses are greater than 3-4 metres.

Change the stove for one known to work well in boats.

 

Bod