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Widest & Deepest narrow locks. Where are they?


oboat

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Recalling conversations with Laurence Hogg, I remember aspects of the discussion regarding the dimensions of craft was related to boat gauging tables. The width and length of locks was also a factor. Craft size could be determined by the cargo and some craft were built to maximise capacity when passing along the waterway. The size of the craft was determined by the narrowest and shortest lock. Careful construction might enable more favourable gauging readings where the wet system of gauge was employed, and such factors led some navigations (such as the BCN) to adopt dry system gauging.

 

Canal dimensions and lack of locks enabled the Hampton Boats to navigate specific canals and with the Shrewsbury Canal and the Upper Chesterfield Canal the locks were particularly narrow. The tub boat canals were also restricted by dimensions and the use of the inclined planes.

 

The wider dimensions of the Ashby, I seen to recall had wider craft in use for that waterway, but not to pass the stop onto the Coventry. The Bond End Canal had craft of wider dimensions that worked up to Shobnall. Had the Commercial Canal been built it might be interesting to reflect on the dimension of craft on that intended navigation.

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The Wey at Weybridge with its additional lower gate to sometimes make a staircase must be able to stake a claim of some sort.

Since there is very little conceptual difference between a lock and a pound, the widest/longest (but not deepest) claims are open to silly challenge.  Interesting thread, just the same.

 

 

The Wey at Weybridge with its additional lower gate to sometimes make a staircase must be able to stake a claim of some sort.

Since there is very little conceptual difference between a lock and a pound, the widest/longest (but not deepest) claims are open to silly challenge.  Interesting thread, just the same.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

Since there is very little conceptual difference between a lock and a pound, the widest/longest (but not deepest) claims are open to silly challenge.  Interesting thread, just the same.

 

 

 There is a very fundamental conceptual difference in that the lock is designed to enable boats to change level and the pound between locks is not! 

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On 20/11/2022 at 08:59, Heartland said:

Recalling conversations with Laurence Hogg, I remember aspects of the discussion regarding the dimensions of craft was related to boat gauging tables. The width and length of locks was also a factor. Craft size could be determined by the cargo and some craft were built to maximise capacity when passing along the waterway. The size of the craft was determined by the narrowest and shortest lock. Careful construction might enable more favourable gauging readings where the wet system of gauge was employed, and such factors led some navigations (such as the BCN) to adopt dry system gauging.

 

Canal dimensions and lack of locks enabled the Hampton Boats to navigate specific canals and with the Shrewsbury Canal and the Upper Chesterfield Canal the locks were particularly narrow. The tub boat canals were also restricted by dimensions and the use of the inclined planes.

 

The wider dimensions of the Ashby, I seen to recall had wider craft in use for that waterway, but not to pass the stop onto the Coventry. The Bond End Canal had craft of wider dimensions that worked up to Shobnall. Had the Commercial Canal been built it might be interesting to reflect on the dimension of craft on that intended navigation.

Exactly my point & the Ashby (@ 30miles) was one area at the top of my potential list plus the 8 miles on the Coventry to the large city market & its industry would certainly tempt the beam tweaking of local craft which maybe could even get some way down to Atherstone top lock. However you mention NOT through the narrow stop lock?
I was under the impression the narrowing like the Thames Lk at Oxford & the Wendover narrows, was a late addition?
Any comment on other restrictions?
From memory I feel the entry to Coventry Basin itself was a bit tight but most other bridges & what still exists of the Ashby stop lock are generous when compared to say the W&B ?

Re the Hampton Boats, I am not familiar with them, where did they operate & do you know the beam?

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51 minutes ago, oboat said:

Re the Hampton Boats, I am not familiar with them, where did they operate & do you know the beam?

ISTR they were about 80-85 feet long and 8'6" wide and they operated on the Wolverhampton Level carrying coal from Cannock to Wolverhampton power station and maybe other destinations on the Wolverhampton level.

As far as I know none remain, but back in the 70s I heard of a couple of chaps who raised one which had been sunk in the arm alongside the Wulfruna Coal Company's depot (Minerva Wharf?), intending to convert it. But when they found out it was too big to pass through the locks they abandoned it again.

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53 minutes ago, oboat said:

Exactly my point & the Ashby (@ 30miles) was one area at the top of my potential list plus the 8 miles on the Coventry to the large city market & its industry would certainly tempt the beam tweaking of local craft which maybe could even get some way down to Atherstone top lock. However you mention NOT through the narrow stop lock?

From memory I feel the entry to Coventry Basin itself was a bit tight but most other bridges & what still exists of the Ashby stop lock are generous when compared to say the W&B ?

The Coventry Canal from Nuneaton to Coventry was built quite early in the Canal Age so it's likely many of the original bridges were built quite narrow. Of course many have been rebuilt since. This photo from Geograph shows that the current Marston stop lock is not significantly larger than 7ft - though it could have been wider originally.geograph-3148836-by-Nigel-Cox.jpg.88af5d0550d18d60d42ca56abd41de2d.jpg

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1 hour ago, oboat said:

Exactly my point & the Ashby (@ 30miles) was one area at the top of my potential list plus the 8 miles on the Coventry to the large city market & its industry would certainly tempt the beam tweaking of local craft which maybe could even get some way down to Atherstone top lock. However you mention NOT through the narrow stop lock?
I was under the impression the narrowing like the Thames Lk at Oxford & the Wendover narrows, was a late addition?
Any comment on other restrictions?
From memory I feel the entry to Coventry Basin itself was a bit tight but most other bridges & what still exists of the Ashby stop lock are generous when compared to say the W&B ?

Re the Hampton Boats, I am not familiar with them, where did they operate & do you know the beam?


The Worcester & Birmingham is perhaps not a good comparator because its dimensions are generous for a narrow canal, having been originally conceived for barge traffic.

 

17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

ISTR they were about 80-85 feet long and 8'6" wide and they operated on the Wolverhampton Level carrying coal from Cannock to Wolverhampton power station and maybe other destinations on the Wolverhampton level.

As far as I know none remain, but back in the 70s I heard of a couple of chaps who raised one which had been sunk in the arm alongside the Wulfruna Coal Company's depot (Minerva Wharf?), intending to convert it. But when they found out it was too big to pass through the locks they abandoned it again.

 

Hampton boats were wooden, were they not?? One reason none survive.

 

The BCN gauge registers show them as being of various sizes.

 

 

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On 20/11/2022 at 08:59, Heartland said:

Recalling conversations with Laurence Hogg, I remember aspects of the discussion regarding the dimensions of craft was related to boat gauging tables. The width and length of locks was also a factor. Craft size could be determined by the cargo and some craft were built to maximise capacity when passing along the waterway. The size of the craft was determined by the narrowest and shortest lock. Careful construction might enable more favourable gauging readings where the wet system of gauge was employed, and such factors led some navigations (such as the BCN) to adopt dry system gauging.

 

Canal dimensions and lack of locks enabled the Hampton Boats to navigate specific canals and with the Shrewsbury Canal and the Upper Chesterfield Canal the locks were particularly narrow. The tub boat canals were also restricted by dimensions and the use of the inclined planes.

 

The wider dimensions of the Ashby, I seen to recall had wider craft in use for that waterway, but not to pass the stop onto the Coventry. The Bond End Canal had craft of wider dimensions that worked up to Shobnall. Had the Commercial Canal been built it might be interesting to reflect on the dimension of craft on that intended navigation.

Exactly my point & the Ashby was at the top of my potential list, (& part of the Coventry) you mention NOT through the narrow stop lock? I was under the impression the narrowing like the Thames Lk at Oxford & the Wendover narrows was a late addition?
Re the Hampton Boats, where did they operate & do you know the beam?

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4 hours ago, David Mack said:

ISTR they were about 80-85 feet long and 8'6" wide and they operated on the Wolverhampton Level carrying coal from Cannock to Wolverhampton power station and maybe other destinations on the Wolverhampton level.

As far as I know none remain, but back in the 70s I heard of a couple of chaps who raised one which had been sunk in the arm alongside the Wulfruna Coal Company's depot (Minerva Wharf?), intending to convert it. But when they found out it was too big to pass through the locks they abandoned it again.

Are, They must be the boats I was thinking/talking of when I started  this thread.

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Somewhere Hadfield states the the Coventry, the Oxford, and the Trent and Mersey, Canal Co's got together in the 1790's (may be earlier - see canals of the West Midlands)  and formally agreed the gauge to be Seven & one quarter feet, ie 7ft 3Inches.
Over the years to reduce maintenance this has slowly been pulled in to the current figure of 6ft 10" brought about by Mr North and his grand plan to save the Llangollen canal from closure. Having said that C&RT are well aware the a good number of the boats in the National Historic fleet are built to 7ft 1" - thus the rebuild of lock 4 at Hurlesdon, shame lock 3 is also narrow.
Interestingly at a  similar time the last working boats built the mkII admirals where also built to 6ft10" as D&WE were concerned about the effects that brine pumping was having on Cheshire locks.

 

As for depth the Deepest original lock on the system now is Antonys Lock 77 on The Rochdale the three deeper locks are all replacement locks for two locks, Tuel, Bath & Middlewood.
Not sure which lock would have been the deepest as built, as Antonys Lock is this size due to the same subsidence as Vinegar Lock 10 on the Ashton. Both canals have similar shallow locks Lock 80 on the Rochdale and Lock 4 on the Ashton, which is where the coal fields run out into the Manchester Sandstone Bluff.

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8 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

Not sure which lock would have been the deepest as built,

 

 

Whilst it's not quite the same thing, the deepest lock (and certainly the deepest narrow lock) in Martin Clark's list that hasn't got deeper since it was built is Lock 15 at Marple, 13 foot 4 inches - I accept some deeper locks may have been deeper than this before subsidence, but I suspect not

 

http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/locks.htm

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11 hours ago, Ian Mac said:

Somewhere Hadfield states the the Coventry, the Oxford, and the Trent and Mersey, Canal Co's got together in the 1790's (may be earlier - see canals of the West Midlands)  and formally agreed the gauge to be Seven & one quarter feet, ie 7ft 3Inches.
snip

You need to read my recent book which covers the meeting, which was on 14 December, 1769. The Coventry Canal minutes state:

…It was proposed that a standing order be made at a General Assembly of all the Navigations that all the locks hereafter to be made shall be of a size not less than the dimensions following, viz, 74 feet 9 inches in length and 7 feet in width upon the sill, that the Depth of each canal in water shall not be less than 4 feet 4 inches, and that Mr. Brindley do take upon him the charge of inspecting the several locks and canals already made, to see that they in no material instance vary from such dimensions, and make his report thereof at each next succeeding General Assembly.…

Brindley had originally suggested that narrow canals should be 6 feet wide, following boat trials on the Bridgewater Canal. 

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On 29/11/2022 at 11:27, Pluto said:

not less than the dimensions following, viz, 74 feet 9 inches in length and 7 feet in width upon the sill,

Measured where? Most locks will not take boats 74ft 9ins long, and the longest 'standard' narrow boats had an overall hull length of 71ft 6in to perhaps 72ft (plus rudder which can be folded to the side).

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I can't be certain, as the meeting was 250 years ago, but it is probably between quoins, while the effective length is from the forebay to gate, the exact length then depending on whether the lock had single or mitre gates.

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5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Measured where? Most locks will not take boats 74ft 9ins long, and the longest 'standard' narrow boats had an overall hull length of 71ft 6in to perhaps 72ft (plus rudder which can be folded to the side).

But is it chamber length or usable length? Thinking of the short length the gate swings in

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1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Measured where? Most locks will not take boats 74ft 9ins long, and the longest 'standard' narrow boats had an overall hull length of 71ft 6in to perhaps 72ft (plus rudder which can be folded to the side).

The longest boat I know of, (the thought police will be around with the full list later) and travelled with is the Big William the royalty Class Motor. She is 72ft 5inches I believe and the shortest Narrow lock I have been through with her is Brades Staircase , which was a swine, everything up and get the boat in just the right position and she will just fit.  She may not have fitted if loaded level.
Unfortunately Alan (Taff) Jones has died, so I can not consult him, as to if there was anywhere else which was no go, but I am not aware of anywhere else.
The killer is going down hill and getting the single bottom gate open, around the stem.

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Evenin' all

 

Coming rather late to this one. I was puzzled by IanMac's reference to "Over the years to reduce maintenance this has slowly been pulled in to the current figure of 6ft 10" brought about by Mr North and his grand plan to save the Llangollen canal from closure."

 

Sorry, who was Mr North? 

 

All the best 

 

Joseph B

 

 

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2 hours ago, Joseph said:

Coming rather late to this one. I was puzzled by IanMac's reference to "Over the years to reduce maintenance this has slowly been pulled in to the current figure of 6ft 10" brought about by Mr North and his grand plan to save the Llangollen canal from closure."

 

Sorry, who was Mr North?

He was the principle engineer North for the DWE. (Docks & Waterways Executive) Based in the Offices on Lime St Liverpool.
He was given the job of closing the Llangollen Canal as it was no longer required, as there was no traffic using it. His plan to save it, so he later claimed, was to sell the water to Mid Cheshire water board , which would require the canal to be kept whole as he would sell the water from Hurleston Res on the Chester Canal, and continue to take the feed from Horseshoe falls, at the other end.
To reduce costs he would only maintain the depth to 2ft, and he was also helped by the fact that Hurleston bottom has collapsed in slightly reducing the width, which meant that the deeper older boats would not be able to get up there.
This lead to the requirement that boats had to be 6ft 10" wide to be able to navigate the whole system.
This number had come in previously as some of Cheshire locks were really suffering from salt subsidence, which does not have the same repayments as coal, and were not being rebuilt, so they too were getting narrow, (in fact some still are) and so the later admirals were built to 6ft 10"

Edited by Ian Mac
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A list of Birmingham Canal Locks in Birmingham Library archives records lock dimensions for 1923.

There was a remarkable variation in length and width, but with some locks at 78ft long or more, I did wonder if with when the locks were reconstructed the length and width was altered from an earlier and slightly shorter and narrower original

 

The list records 433 lock gates and the odd number seems to have included the single lock gate across Dudley Tunnel at Parkhead

Edited by Heartland
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Very interesting. The locks on the Regents built between 1812 & 1820 were all 78ft x 14'6". Could there be a connection? was it just coincidence? or was there a pattern which may suggest a plan local or grand? 
Incidentally I just checked the CRT web site for the Regents.
They now give 13'-10" beam and 73'-4" length.

So has something changed. I know the water level did about 30 years ago, but 

as wide boats of 14'-0" or more operate on the regents I would assume not. If not why do CRT do this? 
It just give one less & less confidence in them!
 

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33 minutes ago, oboat said:

Very interesting. The locks on the Regents built between 1812 & 1820 were all 78ft x 14'6". Could there be a connection? was it just coincidence? or was there a pattern which may suggest a plan local or grand? 
Incidentally I just checked the CRT web site for the Regents.
They now give 13'-10" beam and 73'-4" length.

So has something changed. I know the water level did about 30 years ago, but 

as wide boats of 14'-0" or more operate on the regents I would assume not. If not why do CRT do this? 
It just give one less & less confidence in them!
 


Because they are maximum craft dimensions that CRT are obliged to maintain passage for, and have to be read in combination. That is a different consideration from the maximum dimension on any one axis that may physically fit the channel and structures. The legal requirements on CRT are also derived from a historic study of the size of boats that were actually using each waterway at that time.

 

Also, locks aren’t the only limiting feature. The entire GU main line north of Berkhamsted is listed as 12’ 6” maximum width yet all the locks are nominally 14’ wide. In that case the width of the full depth dredged channel is the limiting factor (although it’s a serviceability limit rather than a critical limit).

 

So if you operate a 14’ wide craft on the Regents, if it’s at or close to 73’ 4” long you might find a problem, especially if the draft (water or air) is close or at the limit at any significant distance away from the centreline of the boat. But since no boat is a cuboid there is generally quite a bit of leeway on the dimensions when taken individually.

 

 

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Royalty boats are 71.5 feet (presumably 72 with the rudder - but I've never actually run a tape measure over Victoria). I've yet to get stopped due to length, but I haven't been up the Crow, where I understand full length boats need to come down backwards.

 

interestingly they were made to 6 foot 11 inches wide (Victoria still is this width at the back bulk head widest point), as I guess they were worried about width issues even then. Obviously they weren't worried about depth too much at 3 foot 3 inch depth from skeg to uxter, and a 5 foot hold depth!

 

Canal dimensions also include bridge 'ole limitations, and while as far as I know a Leeds and Liverpool short boats can run all the way through London (and a breast GU pair), it doesn't mean when the limits list was made they could.

 

Mike

 

Edited by mykaskin
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On 11/12/2022 at 21:21, Ian Mac said:

He was the principle engineer North for the DWE. (Docks & Waterways Executive) Based in the Offices on Lime St Liverpool.
He was given the job of closing the Llangollen Canal as it was no longer required, as there was no traffic using it. His plan to save it, so he later claimed, was to sell the water to Mid Cheshire water board ,

 That's the gist of it but as I understand it there were a number of subtleties

 

first, water had been being sold in LMS days, when Rolt attempted for the second time the Dee Conservancy had caught up with them (by this time BTC I think) and were demanding a meter be fitted at Llantysilio next to Horse Shoe Falls, the Dee Conservators could then take their cut of the proceeds - this was why Rolt was short of water, flow was restricted whilst the meter was built.

 

Second, the canal was abandoned by the LMS in 1944, and so there was no obligation to maintain it for traffic. As a result a local authority proposed to lower a bridge (I can't recall which one)  - Mr North argued that, although the canal was no longer open for frieght it still needed to be maintained for the conveyance of water and, whilst he couldn't prevent them lowering the bridge, they would be liable for the increased maintenance cost, and in his calculations he included lifting a dredger and the mud boats over the bridge, by crane, on a regular basis. The local authority backed down.

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We never went up The Crow with Victoria either, but never had any trouble with Otley. One lock (the rebuilt one below the Expressway) on Aston was a ******* both ways requiring all the fenders lifting and the rebuilt Lapworth lock was even tighter. If we are going to be precise I believe Royalties were 4ft 11½, but the worst bridge we encountered was the one in Stoke on Trent which has been lifted now.

Edited by BuckbyLocks
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