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DEFRA reneges on Autumn future funding decision


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Absolutely not no, wouldn’t have a clue.

 

I’m just thinking there’s more people, either directly or indirectly, getting a slice of the DEFRA funding given to CRT.

So to stop the funding would have further knock on effects.

And for that reason I can’t see the funding simply ending.

 

I really don’t know. Just a thought I wanted to explore. 

Edited by Goliath
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17 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You seem to think there is some sort of conspiracy going on here. Keir are a large mainstream contractor, who are inevitably going to bid for large infrastructure contracts, most of which are awarded after a competitive tendering process.

 

One hopes that’s the case.

 

As for conspiracy...always worth considering 😃

 

 

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1 hour ago, Orwellian said:

I don't so I'll leave that bit of research with you.

I wasn't being lazy, I did try and find some understandable figures but with no success, and I thought you might already have them 🙂

 

I'll try again at the weekend. Where did you get the DEFRA total from?

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4 hours ago, Orwellian said:

DEFRA total spend for current financial year is £5.54 billion so their contract payment to CRT of £52.6 million is just 0.95% of the total.

 

 

DEFRA 'Headline' expenditure : 2020/21 £6.6 billion fallen from £8.2 billion in 2019/20

 

Core department is the 'running cost' (salaries, staff costs, vehicles, buildings etc etc etc) of DEFRA

 

I'd guess that C&RT may well fall under the "other public bodies" spend of £370 million

 

 

 

Screenshot (1657).png

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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1 hour ago, IanD said:

I wasn't being lazy, I did try and find some understandable figures but with no success, and I thought you might already have them 🙂

 

I'll try again at the weekend. Where did you get the DEFRA total from?

Here https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/public-spending-statistics-release-july-2022/public-spending-statistics-july-2022#departmental-budgets

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30 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Total only though, no breakdown... 😞

 

Now wading through this trying to make sense of it...

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1113920/defra-annual-report-2021-2022.pdf

 

"The total voted net funding in 2021-22 was £7.52 billion which was broken down as follows;
• Departmental Expenditure Limit (DEL) (including depreciation): £5.86 billion
of which;
• Resource DEL (including depreciation): £4.44 billion
• Capital DEL: £1.42 billion
• Annually Managed Expenditure (AME): £1.65 billion"

 

Hmm, CRT must be in there *somewhere" -- maybe in Chapter 3 -- Financial Analysis?

 

Getting there gradually -- on P.64 "Environment, Rural and Marine" DEL funding is £2.3B, is CART in here?

 

Page after page of stuff about employees, incidents, objectives, blah blah blah -- aha, found some actual figures starting on P.130!!!

 

Wow, talk about impenetrable... 😞

 

If I understand it correctly (what are ALBs? Should these just be added in?), on P.132 I get the following spends (in descending order):

 

Food and farming : £1965M

Improve the environment and rural services : £910M

Department operating costs : £540M

Protect the country from floods : £450M

Animal and plant health : £330M

Marine and fisheries : £93M

 

Adds up to £4.3B (not £2.3B) and I can't find any reference anywhere to where CART's grant comes from -- is it "marine and fisheries"?

 

It's almost as if they don't want people to be able to figure out where all the money is going -- but what's for sure is that CART is a *miniscule* part of the total (around 1%), it's lost in the noise... 😞

 

My head hurts, I give up -- it's Friday so it must be G&T o'clock, followed by curry hour... 🙂 🙂 🙂

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

Total only though, no breakdown... 😞

 

Now wading through this trying to make sense of it...

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1113920/defra-annual-report-2021-2022.pdf

 

"The total voted net funding in 2021-22 was £7.52 billion which was broken down as follows;
• Departmental Expenditure Limit (DEL) (including depreciation): £5.86 billion
of which;
• Resource DEL (including depreciation): £4.44 billion
• Capital DEL: £1.42 billion
• Annually Managed Expenditure (AME): £1.65 billion"

 

Hmm, CRT must be in there *somewhere" -- maybe in Chapter 3 -- Financial Analysis?

 

Getting there gradually -- on P.64 "Environment, Rural and Marine" DEL funding is £2.3B, is CART in here?

 

Page after page of stuff about employees, incidents, objectives, blah blah blah -- aha, found some actual figures starting on P.130!!!

 

Wow, talk about impenetrable... 😞

 

If I understand it correctly (what are ALBs? Should these just be added in?), on P.132 I get the following spends (in descending order):

 

Food and farming : £1965M

Improve the environment and rural services : £910M

Department operating costs : £540M

Protect the country from floods : £450M

Animal and plant health : £330M

Marine and fisheries : £93M

 

Adds up to £4.3B (not £2.3B) and I can't find any reference anywhere to where CART's grant comes from -- is it "marine and fisheries"?

 

It's almost as if they don't want people to be able to figure out where all the money is going -- but what's for sure is that CART is a *miniscule* part of the total (around 1%), it's lost in the noise... 😞

 

My head hurts, I give up -- it's Friday so it must be G&T o'clock, followed by curry hour... 🙂 🙂 🙂

You may well find that CRT's grant is not consolidated in Defra's accounts. I seem to recall that, although the grant agreement is administered by DEFRA (currently floods and water directorate), the money does not come out of DEFRA budget.

 

**** Edited to add - I think I have a ten year old document at home that explains but away for a week.  Will have a search online in a day or two if others can't find some reference.

 

 

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)
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On 10/11/2022 at 11:15, mrsmelly said:

I hope I am wrong, but I think I left the system at the beginning of the end of the system I used for over 30 years. Pleased I am not just moving on there, it does seem funding will be an issue going forward, but hey, maybe not, it may come good in the end.

That writing has been on the wall for some years. I see a time when as long as ducks can swim and permanent moorers can do so canals will be seen as serving their purpose.

 

Ops, forgot about maggot drowners

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

Total only though, no breakdown... 😞

 

Now wading through this trying to make sense of it...

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1113920/defra-annual-report-2021-2022.pdf

 

"The total voted net funding in 2021-22 was £7.52 billion which was broken down as follows;
• Departmental Expenditure Limit (DEL) (including depreciation): £5.86 billion
of which;
• Resource DEL (including depreciation): £4.44 billion
• Capital DEL: £1.42 billion
• Annually Managed Expenditure (AME): £1.65 billion"

 

Hmm, CRT must be in there *somewhere" -- maybe in Chapter 3 -- Financial Analysis?

 

Getting there gradually -- on P.64 "Environment, Rural and Marine" DEL funding is £2.3B, is CART in here?

 

Page after page of stuff about employees, incidents, objectives, blah blah blah -- aha, found some actual figures starting on P.130!!!

 

Wow, talk about impenetrable... 😞

 

If I understand it correctly (what are ALBs? Should these just be added in?), on P.132 I get the following spends (in descending order):

 

Food and farming : £1965M

Improve the environment and rural services : £910M

Department operating costs : £540M

Protect the country from floods : £450M

Animal and plant health : £330M

Marine and fisheries : £93M

 

Adds up to £4.3B (not £2.3B) and I can't find any reference anywhere to where CART's grant comes from -- is it "marine and fisheries"?

 

It's almost as if they don't want people to be able to figure out where all the money is going -- but what's for sure is that CART is a *miniscule* part of the total (around 1%), it's lost in the noise... 😞

 

My head hurts, I give up -- it's Friday so it must be G&T o'clock, followed by curry hour... 🙂 🙂 🙂

So does mine .Folks must just accept that it's hard times ahead and that the NHS, education,social care, defence, pensions etc,etc have far higher priority than a worn out 18th century transport system.

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17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I'd guess that C&RT may well fall under the "other public bodies" spend of £370 million

 

 

 

Screenshot (1657).png

Yes to "other public bodies".

No to grant being part of the £370m spend on other public bodies.

 

From Defra's current annual report
 

Quote

Entities Outside the Departmental Boundary

 

The public sector bodies which have not been consolidated in these accounts, but for which Defra’s ministers had lead policy responsibility during the year, are as follows:

 

Public Corporations
Covent Garden Market Authority Forestry England (formerly Forest Enterprise England) Canal & River Trust

 

Other Bodies
National Parks Authorities (x9) Water Services Regulation Authority (Ofwat) Broads Authority

I would suggest that the grant currently administered by Defra comes from Treasury budget rather than Defra's own. 

It would explain why the Treasury is included in the grant review process.

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7 hours ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Yes to "other public bodies".

No to grant being part of the £370m spend on other public bodies.

 

From Defra's current annual report
 

I would suggest that the grant currently administered by Defra comes from Treasury budget rather than Defra's own. 

It would explain why the Treasury is included in the grant review process.

If that is correct then according to the same source as referred to above the Treasury department spending limit is a mere £411 million making the CRT grant a much more significant 12.8%. That doesn't seem credible to me.

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6 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

If that is correct then according to the same source as referred to above the Treasury department spending limit is a mere £411 million making the CRT grant a much more significant 12.8%. That doesn't seem credible to me.

Not sure what you mean by spending limit.

I quoted from Defra's latest annual report page 240.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

I understand what you are saying now, thanks. The annual report suggests that grant does not come from Defra's budget but it represents a very high proportion of the max amount that the Treasury may spend.

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)
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The Treasury were directly involved in the creation of CRT but I always assumed that was because it was a novel way of delivering what had previously been delivered by a public corporation. However whichever budget it comes from it is a tiny proportion of total government spend. The main problem in my view is the provisions of Annex 8 of the MOU which Hales, Evans et al were obliged to accept as if they hadn't it would have destroyed their case for taking BW out of the public sector.

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Some year's ago CRT made an unsuccessful attempt to take over EA waterways, yet the EA chap who told me that also said the EA regarded it's waterways as a pain in the bum (???). If that's the case you would have thought they would have gladly handed them over. If the chancellor is looking to save billions as reported today on the BBC maybe scrapping CRT and handing the waterways over to the EA would make financial sense. Not sure what that would mean for us but can't be any worse than the direction of travel we have now. 

PS do they have blue signs on the Nene & Great Ouse?

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7 minutes ago, Midnight said:

If the chancellor is looking to save billions as reported today on the BBC maybe scrapping CRT and handing the waterways over to the EA would make financial sense.

 

 

It makes much more sense (not just financially) to me rather than C&RT thinking they could possibly run the EA waterways when they cannot even manage what they already have.

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The problem is the EA's primary function is protecting the environment not running navigations and they don't have anywhere near enough money to do that effectively. Unless public money is provided to care for inland waterways - for everyone's benefit not just boaters - they are doomed.

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31 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

The Treasury were directly involved in the creation of CRT but I always assumed that was because it was a novel way of delivering what had previously been delivered by a public corporation. However whichever budget it comes from it is a tiny proportion of total government spend. The main problem in my view is the provisions of Annex 8 of the MOU which Hales, Evans et al were obliged to accept as if they hadn't it would have destroyed their case for taking BW out of the public sector.

I agree. I assume Treasury involvement then and now is because -

 

- a long term funding agreement covers more than one spending review period

 

and/or

 

- the charity does not naturally fall within the remit of one government department

 

The current grant agreement explicitly states the Treasury permissions were obtained

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1 hour ago, Orwellian said:

The problem is the EA's primary function is protecting the environment not running navigations and they don't have anywhere near enough money to do that effectively. Unless public money is provided to care for inland waterways - for everyone's benefit not just boaters - they are doomed.

 

If it happened I suspect there would be a slight improvement in maintenance of the navigation, but a big reduction in facilities probably expecting local council's to provide those.  They do seem to respond faster to breakdowns than CRT if my experience (admittedly modest) is anything to go by.

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On 12/11/2022 at 19:15, Orwellian said:

The problem is the EA's primary function is protecting the environment not running navigations and they don't have anywhere near enough money to do that effectively. Unless public money is provided to care for inland waterways - for everyone's benefit not just boaters - they are doomed.

I said earlier that NABO were on to this delay.

 

Tomorrow (Tuesday) Anne Husar (Wandering Snail) will be on ITV Central six o'clock news together with Michael Fabricant and Richard Parry putting the case for CRT post 2027 funding.

 

An unnamed person from the Treasury (not DEFRA) will also be appearing.

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3 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

I said earlier that NABO were on to this delay.

 

Tomorrow (Tuesday) Anne Husar (Wandering Snail) will be on ITV Central six o'clock news together with Michael Fabricant and Richard Parry putting the case for CRT post 2027 funding.

 

An unnamed person from the Treasury (not DEFRA) will also be appearing.

ITV are hoping to speak with a boater from the East Midlands tomorrow (we're in the West) about this. Please email Chris at christopher.hesketh@itv.com

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On 10/11/2022 at 12:32, mrsmelly said:

Its pointless responding to a soft lad that has most people on ignore.

I think this will be a problem going forward. Luckily for me i was there when it was all good, the last couple of years there were more problems with the system than the first 30, but still a good system. Going forward where will the money come from? Lets hope it all comes good.

 

I think Ian's problem is that he is starting to think he might have made a very expensive mistake investing in a very expensive boat at possibly the wrong time. And he doesnt like anybody pointing out that this might indeed be the case.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, M_JG said:

 

I think Ian's problem is that he is starting to think he might have made a very expensive mistake investing in a very expensive boat at possibly the wrong time. And he doesnt like anybody pointing out that this might indeed be the case.

 

 

 

 

Friedrich had it 'right' when he said ..............................................

 

 

Dont want to hear the truth.jpg

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