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Help wanted near Kidderminster


Andrew Denny

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About 15 years ago I tried to pull a narrow boat off the bottom at the draw dock outside the London Apprentice in Isleworth. His boat must have been deep draughted as the tide hadn't lifted it sufficiently and he couldn't get off the bottom at high tide/slack water. He asked me to help and his boat didn't look stuck but there was no way it was moving even with my 55hp engine at full revs. After 10 mins of trying I could see that the tide was starting to ebb and it was just going to get harder so we gave up. 

 

I haven't read the whole thread but if the OP happens to be in a shortish pound and the one above is longer I'd just let some water in from above. But I guess that's probably not the situation as he'd have already done it.

Edited by blackrose
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2 hours ago, Deep said:

I can confirm that the boat is still there as we saw it yesterday morning on our way to Stourport. We had offered a tow, so we stopped blew our horn several times and shouted out but there was no sign of life in both house or boat. The mooring is on the offside and for obvious reasons we didn't want to moor up and knock on the door.

Well done for trying but not surprising, Andrew said that he's not on the boat (he lives on land) and has to travel a long way to it to try and move it.

49 minutes ago, blackrose said:

About 15 years ago I tried to pull a narrow boat off the bottom at the draw dock outside the London Apprentice in Isleworth. His boat must have been deep draughted as the tide hadn't lifted it sufficiently and he couldn't get off the bottom at high tide/slack water. He asked me to help and his boat didn't look stuck but there was no way it was moving even with my 55hp engine at full revs. After 10 mins of trying I could see that the tide was starting to ebb and it was just going to get harder so we gave up. 

 

I haven't read the whole thread but if the OP happens to be in a shortish pound and the one above is longer I'd just let some water in from above. But I guess that's probably not the situation as he'd have already done it.

The pound is about 1.5 miles long, so maybe not so easy to raise the water level.

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From Andrew's description there is a lock about 1 mile upsream, and another 1/4 mile down. It might be possible with a flush if it were co-ordinated in some manner, but not really practical to do on your own.

 

Tam

Edited by Tam & Di
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12 minutes ago, Tacet said:

I once snatched a boat off the mud by pulling it back the way it had come.  It was easy enough but then rather spoiled by the boat reversing over its own stern rope.

That works if the boat has run onto the mud, pulling it back off the way it came is easiest, and I've done this too on more than one occasion. But Andrew went into the mooring when the water was high and the boat then sat down on the bottom when the water dropped, so there isn't any "way it came". He also said that the worst stuck part appears to be the stern (deepest draft) but the stern is close to piling behind the boat, so it really needs to be pulled/pushed away from the bank to get out not parallel with it.

 

Should still be possible with a "snatch" from another boat as David described above, the inertia of the moving boat plus any stretch in the rope will exert a lot more force than trying to pull the boat. The risk is that it exerts so much force that either the rope snaps under the tension or it pulls the T-stud off, having several pounds of steel flying off at high speed pulled by the rope tension is dangerous to say the least, never mind the damage to the boat -- and this has happened to people trying to do this on several occasions going by previous postings... 😞

Edited by IanD
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Most things seem to have been attempted or suggested without success so far. The only suggestion I can make is the use of a pressure washer to blast away the silt around the stern area, mainly on the offside, to assist another boat to pull him into deeper water. Alternatively the prop wash from another boat lashed alongside may be useful.  I have seen this method used very successfully in the salvage of a small ship aground on a beach, using, in that case,  the prop wash from a tug, but in that case it did need a lot of sand to be shifted. 

 

Howard

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

That works if the boat has run onto the mud, pulling it back off the way it came is easiest, and I've done this too on more than one occasion. But Andrew went into the mooring when the water was high and the boat then sat down on the bottom when the water dropped, so there isn't any "way it came". He also said that the worst stuck part appears to be the stern (deepest draft) but the stern is close to piling behind the boat, so it really needs to be pulled/pushed away from the bank to get out not parallel with it.

 

Should still be possible with a "snatch" from another boat as David described above, the inertia of the moving boat plus any stretch in the rope will exert a lot more force than trying to pull the boat. The risk is that it exerts so much force that either the rope snaps under the tension or it pulls the T-stud off, having several pounds of steel flying off at high speed pulled by the rope tension is dangerous to say the least, never mind the damage to the boat -- and this has happened to people trying to do this on several occasions going by previous postings... 😞

Not always - see Evergreen - docu on TV last night.

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6 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Not always - see Evergreen - docu on TV last night.

If you run a 200000t ship onto sand at 14kts it's not quite the same problem though, and a ship like that is trimmed level not down at the stern like a canal boat... 😉

 

(yes I saw the documentary, too much waffle and repeat-for-idiots but some interesting bits)

Edited by IanD
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@Andrew Denny I'm unexpectedly available for the next couple of weeks and my boat is a couple of days away from Wolverley. However, I'm also registered and insured for towage work in a commercial capacity so it's an offer that has strings attached.

 

PM me if interested.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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4 hours ago, IanD said:

If you run a 200000t ship onto sand at 14kts it's not quite the same problem though, and a ship like that is trimmed level not down at the stern like a canal boat... 😉

 

(yes I saw the documentary, too much waffle and repeat-for-idiots but some interesting bits)

I was not being 100% serious, but thought it worth drawing attention to it, for two reasons really:

 

1. You can only pull out backwards if there is enough room to get a line that is sufficiently near to the line of the vessel, Otherwise you will tend to turn the vessel if the bow is free enough. IF, as with EG, it is deeply embedded then it will not turn about its central axis.

 

2. The reasons why it is thought to have foundered is the impact of side effects, which increase with speed (as more water seeks to get past in an ever decreasing space. This is very common on canal boats. The docu was also making the point that speed not only has to be high enough to gain steerage, but also not to high to get into a vicious circle of being pulled to one bank, demanding ever greater speed to correct. The must be a sweet spot but not easily determined (until too late) as it will no doubt vary with cross wind speed. This is most easily seen in navigating a tunnel where too slow not only annoys the steerer behind but also does to give enough forward stability. Too fast and you will swing from side to side uncontrollably.

 

I am not sure that the trim is as significant as you suggest.

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5 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I was not being 100% serious, but thought it worth drawing attention to it, for two reasons really:

 

1. You can only pull out backwards if there is enough room to get a line that is sufficiently near to the line of the vessel, Otherwise you will tend to turn the vessel if the bow is free enough. IF, as with EG, it is deeply embedded then it will not turn about its central axis.

 

2. The reasons why it is thought to have foundered is the impact of side effects, which increase with speed (as more water seeks to get past in an ever decreasing space. This is very common on canal boats. The docu was also making the point that speed not only has to be high enough to gain steerage, but also not to high to get into a vicious circle of being pulled to one bank, demanding ever greater speed to correct. The must be a sweet spot but not easily determined (until too late) as it will no doubt vary with cross wind speed. This is most easily seen in navigating a tunnel where too slow not only annoys the steerer behind but also does to give enough forward stability. Too fast and you will swing from side to side uncontrollably.

 

I am not sure that the trim is as significant as you suggest.

 

Most narrowboats are trimmed down at the stern by several inches, and Andrew said his boat was stuck most firmly at the stern, which is what you'd expect if the silted bottom was level and it drew more at the stern. The boats that I've pulled off the bottom in the past have invariably gone aground when going ahead and the only way to get them off was to pull them backwards (or backwards and sideways), trying to go ahead just pushed/pulled them more firmly onto the bottom.

 

Anyway all this is moot, it seems that Andrew's boat is still stuck there with no easy way out... 😞

 

(he told me he can only get back to the boat for a day at a time (from a long distance away), so he's not sitting there with the doors locked and curtains closed pretending not to be in, he's just not there...)

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24 minutes ago, IanD said:

 (he told me he can only get back to the boat for a day at a time (from a long distance away), so he's not sitting there with the doors locked and curtains closed pretending not to be in, he's just not there...)

Not a lot of chance in catching anyone for a snatch

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Not a lot of chance in catching anyone for a snatch

Certainly not just by chance, which might *possibly* be why he was specifically trying to arrange one so he could be there at the right time... 🙂

 

But as I said I suspect he's abandoned this thread -- and I don't blame him given some of the unhelpful/abusive posts, as so often happens on CWDF... 😞

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I got the impression that most responses were trying to be helpful and suggest ways to get the boat free when it was unlikely that there would be any passing boats .Ok I know that wasn't what Andrew wanted but his request for a passing boat was not likely to happen. 

Hope he gets the boat free though 

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40 minutes ago, matty40s said:

I think you need proper lines and ropes, strings may not suffice.

Following IanD assertion of abuse ?? etc if Andrew had come back and explained this , or said when he might return, several members could have probably turned up and assisted, the most easy route was raising the pound.

It is a very helpful forum when information is shared and communicated.

 

Yep, I could get to Wolverley quicker than I can get to my boat to even start the journey to get there by water.

 

And the strings that need to be attached before the ropes are really about clarity of liability, latent rather than explicit payment. Just in case.

 

Although I'm happy to be liable if charging a commercial rate.

 

 

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5 hours ago, IanD said:

Certainly not just by chance, which might *possibly* be why he was specifically trying to arrange one so he could be there at the right time... 🙂

 

But as I said I suspect he's abandoned this thread -- and I don't blame him given some of the unhelpful/abusive posts, as so often happens on CWDF... 😞

 

I dont suppose you posting pictures of his boat after you were sent a PM of it was appreciated by him perhaps  TBF Ian.

 

Can you direct us to any abusive posts, as I am blowed if I can find any. For sure some people were rather unhappy that the OP didnt return to mention what was happening and there was an element of reluctance to try some sensible suggestions, I would have thought that 7 pages of help offered, people passing by offers to travel to help, every conceivable suggestion shows CWDF in a good helpful light, but make of it what you will I guess. Perhaps arranging a Chinook wasnt appreciated but I wouldn't mind betting someone on here knows someone who knows someone that can access a Chinook 😄 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

 

I dont suppose you posting pictures of his boat after you were sent a PM of it was appreciated by him perhaps  TBF Ian.

 

Can you direct us to any abusive posts, as I am blowed if I can find any. For sure some people were rather unhappy that the OP didnt return to mention what was happening and there was an element of reluctance to try some sensible suggestions, I would have thought that 7 pages of help offered, people passing by offers to travel to help, every conceivable suggestion shows CWDF in a good helpful light, but make of it what you will I guess. Perhaps arranging a Chinook wasnt appreciated but I wouldn't mind betting someone on here knows someone who knows someone that can access a Chinook 😄

 

 

Yes posting the redacted photo was a mistake, which is why I removed it -- I posted it to try and clarify what the problem was and stop people making suggestions which couldn't work.

 

Maybe "abusive" was too strong a word, "unhelpful and sarcastic and critical and doubting motives and bringing the character of the OP into question" would have been more accurate but much longer... 😉

 

In response to:

 

"Tank is almost empty. but the stern is the problem. Look, I'm not asking for tips, I've been stuck many times before, not in these circumstances. What I'm asking is, are there any boats that might be going past this weekend that could oblige with a not-a-euphemism tug?  Thanks."

 

the first few pages were indeed helpful (though the situation was not clear, not helped by lack of photos...), but some of the later responses included:

 

"I’ve seen the boat dumped in several places.

where is this friends private mooring?

Are CRT aware of this reciprocal arrangement?

Has he not found the boat has a bed?

I can’t see the OP getting energetic.

And by the way your mate is a continuous moorer, 

Thankfully this time he’s not blocking any facilities. 

And when a passing boater tries offers a tow (pull-off) they close the curtains and lock the doors and pretend the boat is unoccupied.

...or one who high jacks a lovely private mooring in a most picturesque spot and then claims the water levels have dropped sufficiently that the boat cannot be moved."

 

Coincidentally almost all of these came from the same poster, who I was advised (by PM, during this very thread, by somebody other than the OP) was "an unpleasant sh*t-stirrer" who was not worth engaging with -- and I now won't... 😉

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