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New lithium battery


Jon57

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What’s the panels opinion on these batteries please. Best price so far I’ve had is £850 delivered for a 300amp battery.I know I need an external regulator (alpha pro 111) or similar ,plus a Victron cylix relay etc for my set up . Thanks B227FA45-9097-4617-ADAA-387ACA2FCE94.png.7ab3043cba5bc5338c64184aaffba06c.png

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We know nowt about your set up, but "drop in;" lithium batteries  are, potentially, a battery suppliers wet dream come true.

 

There are numerous, long threads on here. They all have links to both the theory and to practical experience  They are worth a read, so are their links.

 

N

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35 minutes ago, BEngo said:

We know nowt about your set up, but "drop in;" lithium batteries  are, potentially, a battery suppliers wet dream come true.

 

There are numerous, long threads on here. They all have links to both the theory and to practical experience  They are worth a read, so are their links.

 

N

Reading all the threads it's a bit too technical. I'm looking into drop in batteries with built-in bms. The blurp looks like they use good A grade cells the battery footprint fits in with my present set up. It's just the quality of the battery. The spec looks good on paper to me. No doubt its not got the reputation of victron but not got the price either. 3 110amp agm batteries I've got now will cost now near £600 to replace. So for the extra price for the batteries and alpha pro and cylix it will be in the region of £1500 for the new setup. With the advantage of less engine running. I've got the possibility of putting 100 amp into them with out overheat the alternator. Iska 175 amp. The charging side is taken care of. It's just the batteries which I am looking at. 

47 minutes ago, MtB said:

Hard to advise without first knowing the problem you are trying to solve. 

 

Other than to say buying the cheapest LiFePO4 battery you can find is unlikely to end well. 

 

 

 

 

Have you read the blurp. 

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10 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

Reading all the threads it's a bit too technical. I'm looking into drop in batteries with built-in bms. The blurp looks like they use good A grade cells the battery footprint fits in with my present set up. It's just the quality of the battery. The spec looks good on paper to me. No doubt its not got the reputation of victron but not got the price either. 3 110amp agm batteries I've got now will cost now near £600 to replace. So for the extra price for the batteries and alpha pro and cylix it will be in the region of £1500 for the new setup. With the advantage of less engine running. I've got the possibility of putting 100 amp into them with out overheat the alternator. Iska 175 amp. The charging side is taken care of. It's just the batteries which I am looking at. 

Have you read the blurp. 


well the blurb looks the same as any other blurb for similar things. Whether the reality matches the blurb - who knows! The price is not too low so hopefully it will be OK. Just on charging, whilst the Alpha Pro III is a good regulator, ideally you want it to know the battery current so it can go to float at the appropriate time, that needs a Mastershunt (Ah counter). I find my 175A Iskra stabilises at about 120A at 85C case/ air outlet temperature. It could probably be run hotter but 120A is not a bad charge rate.

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10 hours ago, Jon57 said:

Reading all the threads it's a bit too technical.

At this stage in Lithium battery development, I'd say that if this is the case, then Lithium batteries are not for you. To do it well, you either have to spend a lot of money, getting all the gear from a top manufacturer who have an integrated solution, like Victron, or do the research and understand exactly what you are doing to build up something from disparate components.

The cheapest "drop in" batteries can have all sorts of problems. The blurb will look great, regardless. Going on price doesn't help either, as some one may just mark up the cheapest to appeal to those who are concerned about the risks of going cheap.

A few years time, things will have hopefully settled down. We will know more what works and what doesn't. The charlatons will have left the market for something new and prices will have dropped in general.**

 

**As usual these days, assuming there isn't a nuclear war, complete economic collapse or, Z Variant COVID and any survivors are fighting over the juciest rat to eat, rather than considering which Lithium batteries to buy.

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18 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

At this stage in Lithium battery development, I'd say that if this is the case, then Lithium batteries are not for you. To do it well, you either have to spend a lot of money, getting all the gear from a top manufacturer who have an integrated solution, like Victron, or do the research and understand exactly what you are doing to build up something from disparate components.

The cheapest "drop in" batteries can have all sorts of problems. The blurb will look great, regardless. Going on price doesn't help either, as some one may just mark up the cheapest to appeal to those who are concerned about the risks of going cheap.

A few years time, things will have hopefully settled down. We will know more what works and what doesn't. The charlatons will have left the market for something new and prices will have dropped in general.**

 

**As usual these days, assuming there isn't a nuclear war, complete economic collapse or, Z Variant COVID and any survivors are fighting over the juciest rat to eat, rather than considering which Lithium batteries to buy.

 

I totally agree with this. I simply do not think the technology is mature enough or ubiquitous for use by ordinary, non-technical boaters. It is fine for knowledgeable enthusiasts who can afford to make a mistake. I dread to think how the average boatyard mechanic or RCR would handle a faulty lithium charging system at present.

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I totally agree with this. I simply do not think the technology is mature enough or ubiquitous for use by ordinary, non-technical boaters. It is fine for knowledgeable enthusiasts who can afford to make a mistake. I dread to think how the average boatyard mechanic or RCR would handle a faulty lithium charging system at present.

Having squinted at their blurb, one thing struck me in that it says " Never leave a battery unnattended whilst charging " now I had never considered this with lead acid but do manufacturers state the same?  :o A fantastic cop out for insurers if you have a fire say when plugged in to shoreline when away from the boat?

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Having squinted at their blurb, one thing struck me in that it says " Never leave a battery unnattended whilst charging " now I had never considered this with lead acid but do manufacturers state the same?  :o A fantastic cop out for insurers if you have a fire say when plugged in to shoreline when away from the boat?

Or even if solar connected?

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17 hours ago, MtB said:

 

"Pedants' Corner" actually. 

 

But you knew that really didn't you!?

 

😎 ..................  and it's not correct to write A/hrs or A/H or Amp/hours either;  I (and possibly you) cannot find a way to divide a unit of current by time although Einstein may argue that he can (could).

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2 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

😎 ..................  and it's not correct to write A/hrs or A/H or Amp/hours either;  I (and possibly you) cannot find a way to divide a unit of current by time although Einstein may argue that he can (could).

Why not? A/H is amps per hour which is a rather non-standard measure of rate of change of current.

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On 16/10/2022 at 08:51, Tony Brooks said:

 

I totally agree with this. I simply do not think the technology is mature enough or ubiquitous for use by ordinary, non-technical boaters. It is fine for knowledgeable enthusiasts who can afford to make a mistake. I dread to think how the average boatyard mechanic or RCR would handle a faulty lithium charging system at present.

 

I agree with your first comment, but I'm not sure that a faulty LFP charging system is really any different to a modern LA charging system designed to properly manage the batteries (e.g. proper charging management, external alternator controller), because they're pretty much the same but with different settings. But then not many LA systems do this, and most LFP ones do because the batteries are more expensive...

 

I agree that compared to a "traditional" LA system with a standard automotive alternator that "traditionally" means batteries are treated as a disposable item, it's more complicated and needs a bit more electrical knowledge to diagnose and fix if it goes wrong. This should hardly be outside the knowledge of any competent electrician, but probably is in reality given the hash that some marine sparkies seem to make of even simple boat electrical systems... 😞

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11 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Why not? A/H is amps per hour which is a rather non-standard measure of rate of change of current.

 

An effect commonly seen by many boaters in fact.

 

Observe the charging current of your LA battery, and the rate at which the charge current reduces as the battery approaches fully charged could be expressed in Amps per hour. Or perhaps Amps per minute. 

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30 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

 

😎 ..................  and it's not correct to write A/hrs or A/H or Amp/hours either;  I (and possibly you) cannot find a way to divide a unit of current by time although Einstein may argue that he can (could).

 

26 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Why not? A/H is amps per hour which is a rather non-standard measure of rate of change of current.

 

Use SI. As-1

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

I agree with your first comment, but I'm not sure that a faulty LFP charging system is really any different to a modern LA charging system designed to properly manage the batteries (e.g. proper charging management, external alternator controller), because they're pretty much the same but with different settings. But then not many LA systems do this, and most LFP ones do because the batteries are more expensive...

 

I agree that compared to a "traditional" LA system with a standard automotive alternator that "traditionally" means batteries are treated as a disposable item, it's more complicated and needs a bit more electrical knowledge to diagnose and fix if it goes wrong. This should hardly be outside the knowledge of any competent electrician, but probably is in reality given the hash that some marine sparkies seem to make of even simple boat electrical systems... 😞

👍 Precisely this. People can wreck ordinary batteries with the correct charging systems in place. My concern is the batteries I was looking at. £850 against £600 agm with the same charging system tweed to suit. 

1 minute ago, Jon57 said:

👍 Precisely this. People can wreck ordinary batteries with the correct charging systems in place. My concern is the batteries I was looking at. £850 against £600 agm with the same charging system tweeked to suit. 

 

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1 hour ago, Jon57 said:

👍 Precisely this. People can wreck ordinary batteries with the correct charging systems in place. My concern is the batteries I was looking at. £850 against £600 agm with the same charging system tweed to suit. 

 

The problem is that LFP are easier to wreck quickly and irreversibly (and expensively...) than AGM/LA unless you have a proper BMS for them in place (or one built into the batteries which also controls charging, not just emergency disconnect).

 

In spite of what they claim in the publicity, a lot of (designed for LA but with LFP settings bodged in) charging systems are not capable of getting long life out of LFP batteries -- or even avoiding them having a short life... 😞

 

Treated properly, LFPs are a far better long-term solution to providing onboard power than LA/AGM -- yes they're more expensive up front but have *much* longer lifetime (cheaper per kWh overall), more efficient (no Peukert effect, little capacity drop at high currents), no need for long charging times for equalisation/avoiding sulphation.

 

Treated badly, they're a quick way of turning a big wodge of cash into worthless junk.

 

Unfortunately a lot of people (and battery charger suppliers) don't really get this, try and cut corners to save money, and get their fingers burned as a result -- sometimes literally... 😞

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1 hour ago, IanD said:

The problem is that LFP are easier to wreck quickly and irreversibly (and expensively...) than AGM/LA unless you have a proper BMS for them in place (or one built into the batteries which also controls charging, not just emergency disconnect).

 

In spite of what they claim in the publicity, a lot of (designed for LA but with LFP settings bodged in) charging systems are not capable of getting long life out of LFP batteries -- or even avoiding them having a short life... 😞

 

Treated properly, LFPs are a far better long-term solution to providing onboard power than LA/AGM -- yes they're more expensive up front but have *much* longer lifetime (cheaper per kWh overall), more efficient (no Peukert effect, little capacity drop at high currents), no need for long charging times for equalisation/avoiding sulphation.

 

Treated badly, they're a quick way of turning a big wodge of cash into worthless junk.

 

Unfortunately a lot of people (and battery charger suppliers) don't really get this, try and cut corners to save money, and get their fingers burned as a result -- sometimes literally... 😞

All this I understand. My proposed list of charging and protection with monitoring (bmv712) hopefully will be OK. The battery has its own bms as to if that's up to the job who knows. Could go the raw cell route with a external bms. It's a risk either way unless I go the full monty all victron. But it's not a option cost wise. I suppose its a case of how much can I afford to lose against how much I can gain. Only I can make that risk assessment I suppose. Thanks. 

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Unless you're an electrician, buy the cells, build the battery yourself and already have an inverter etc I don't think it makes any sense to do a lithium battery installation on a boat now.  You're better off leveraging the economies of scale offered by the off-grid market in the States and buying a Lithium Power Station which has everything... battery, BMS, solar controller, inverter and all the connectivity.  Portable and with a four year warranty now (for Bluetti, at least).  If you want Lithium it's a no brainer.  Others will disagree, of course. 🤷‍♂️

 

 

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5 hours ago, The Gravy Boater said:

Unless you're an electrician, buy the cells, build the battery yourself and already have an inverter etc I don't think it makes any sense to do a lithium battery installation on a boat now.  You're better off leveraging the economies of scale offered by the off-grid market in the States and buying a Lithium Power Station which has everything... battery, BMS, solar controller, inverter and all the connectivity.  Portable and with a four year warranty now (for Bluetti, at least).  If you want Lithium it's a no brainer.  Others will disagree, of course. 🤷‍♂️

 

Oh no they won't! 

 

But seriously, the main problem with 'drop in' LiFePO4 batteries with built in BMS is their innate ability to spontaneously wreck your alternator. I've not seen any claims by Bluetti et al that theirs can be safely charged with your boat alternator.

 

Others will disagree, of course. 🤷‍♂️

 

:giggles:

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2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

Oh no they won't! 

 

But seriously, the main problem with 'drop in' LiFePO4 batteries with built in BMS is their innate ability to spontaneously wreck your alternator. I've not seen any claims by Bluetti et al that theirs can be safely charged with your boat alternator.

 

Others will disagree, of course. 🤷‍♂️

 

:giggles:

See all the photos of LFP-fried alternators on the marinehowto website...

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On 17/10/2022 at 20:58, MtB said:

 

Oh no they won't! 

 

But seriously, the main problem with 'drop in' LiFePO4 batteries with built in BMS is their innate ability to spontaneously wreck your alternator. I've not seen any claims by Bluetti et al that theirs can be safely charged with your boat alternator.

 

Others will disagree, of course. 🤷‍♂️

 

:giggles:

 

My Bluetti isn't directly plugged into an alternator but I have been charging it via my boat's inverter all year, because I have some solar going to my LA and some directly to the unit.  If I'm getting enough solar off my main array it will run the 500w a/c brick, but sometimes I also run the engine to keep the LA battery voltage up.  As far as my inverter is concerned, it's just another 500w appliance.  I'm aware of the issues with alternators and lithium installs which was yet another reason why I didn't go that route.

 

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