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Calorifier size and placement


TandC

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The first of what will be a barrage of questions associated with the fit of our new build 45 x 10.

 

We need to make some rapid decisions on the layout options to inform window placement...   and a key one is where the calorifier will be installed. 

 

Our current 55lt calorifier is just too small  - so we were looking at 100lt and ideally, to fit in the engine bay (cruiser stern). 

 

I need to speak to the builder for their advice but was interested in other's views please. 

 

Even at 10ft wide, I am not sure if it will fit vertically alongside the engine with its enclosure - but then Im also not sure such a large calorifier would go horizontaly.

 

Any thoughts?  I really don't want it inside if it can be avoided - valuable space on a short boat, plus some concerns over if it leaks.   

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Wot Loddon said.  The engine pipes can afford to lose a some heat, the cauliflower will still warm up, but the take off pipe cannot afford to lose much heat without there being only lukewarm showers.

 

N

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1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Fit the calorifier as near as possible to the places that use hot water.

It means less water will be wasted waiting for the hot to come through.

On Parglena it was in a cupboard next to the bathroom.

 

Thirded.

 

Just make sure you still have good access to it, for when it leaks, won't heat up, or throws any number of other possible problems.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Surecal do a 100L horiz: Surecal 100L Horiz

 

I don't see a vertical 100L on their website.

Perhaps you could couple up a pair of smaller verticals?

 

This company list a 23 gallon twin coil https://www.coppercylinder.co.uk/twin-coil-marine-calorifiers-and-boat-cylinders.html?sort=featured&page=2

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THere's always some dead space where you step down into the cabin -so I used that to fit an airing cupboard with the largest tank I coud find / have one made.

Convection draws stale air from the underfloor bilge (keeping that dry) and there's sufficient height above for three slatted shelves to dry clothes / defrost the Sunday Joint (meat). Damp air rises by convection and exits through a mushroom vent in the roof.

Works for us for some 20+ years......

 

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If you are planning to fit a solid fuel stove with a back boiler, then a vertical calorifier can be installed in such a position in the cabin that it allows gravity circulation without a pump, saving you a continuous current drain and is safer too. Building it in to a cupboard that can be easily dismantled for repair gives an airing cupboard and clothes storage place above.

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On my 50 foot widebeam with a cruiser stern we had a large cauliflower next to the engine under the deck boards. Very easy to get to due to loads of lovely widebeam space. As others have said it depends on layout re heat loss. Our widebeam had the large bathroom immediately on entering through rear doors so cauliflower was literaly a foot away from sink, shower etc. We then had bedroom then kitchen so not a major run and it worked extremely well. One other point, if you can manage it have more than one way to heat water, we had four seperate water heating methods on the widebeam and at least 3 on our other boats, other than the first boat that had only one.

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

On my 50 foot widebeam with a cruiser stern we had a large cauliflower next to the engine under the deck boards. Very easy to get to due to loads of lovely widebeam space. As others have said it depends on layout re heat loss. Our widebeam had the large bathroom immediately on entering through rear doors so cauliflower was literaly a foot away from sink, shower etc. We then had bedroom then kitchen so not a major run and it worked extremely well. One other point, if you can manage it have more than one way to heat water, we had four seperate water heating methods on the widebeam and at least 3 on our other boats, other than the first boat that had only one.

Yes Tim my cauliflower is next to the Rayburn in the kitchen, the kitchen is next to the bathroom. My water can be heated by the Rayburn, the generator or immersion heater powered from solar panels even today hot water from the sun happens 

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12 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

On my 50 foot widebeam with a cruiser stern we had a large cauliflower next to the engine under the deck boards. Very easy to get to due to loads of lovely widebeam space. As others have said it depends on layout re heat loss. Our widebeam had the large bathroom immediately on entering through rear doors so cauliflower was literaly a foot away from sink, shower etc. We then had bedroom then kitchen so not a major run and it worked extremely well. One other point, if you can manage it have more than one way to heat water, we had four seperate water heating methods on the widebeam and at least 3 on our other boats, other than the first boat that had only one.

Great this is all helpful.   

 

On water heating options - currently we have a Morco which i love for its bomb-proof simplicity, but it's so weary trying to get anyone to ever service it safe etc.   A boiler also takes up room and it doesn't help with heating.  So i've made the decision that we take the plunge and do away with gas boiler now.   Instead, we are planning on a Webasto/Eber for hot water and central heating, and then a Squirrel stove without a back boiler.   

 

We are also on mains hookup and for the majority of winter and so have the option of an immersion for hot water.    I'm not sure what is more expensive now - a diesel heater or heating a large tank with an immersion....   I guess if the Webasto fails, we have the option of lighting the fire to keep warm and using the immersion to heat water.

 

 

With regard the layout, having done our layout plan as best we can, the bathroom will be as Mr Smelly described - down the steps from rear deck, orientated to the left hand side.  Immediately on the right will be the bathroom, and then beyond that the kitchen also orientated on the right so this puts all the hot water requirements as close as can be.  

 

On the calorifier - I would ideally like it in the engine bay because I really want to max out the space inside the cabin, it seems crazy to put a big water tank inside that precious area if it could go in the engine bay which will be large.    I can see the pros of it being inside a cupboard in the bathroom - heat loss is coming inside, create an airing cupboard.  But it feels outweighed by the cons of space taken up, and i am a bit nervous about the potential to have it leaking inside the cabin - is it not a little safer for it to be in the engine bay? 

 

@MrSmelly - is yours vertical or horizontal in the engine bay, and what size is it?   I know that 55lts is currently not enough for two of us living onboard so want to go larger.   If you don't mind I will PM you perhaps for a picture or two if you could? 

 

How is the calorifier fitted and secured in the engine bay? 

 

I'm thinking I need to speak to the builder about this now so that fitting points etc can be fabricated in as they construct, in the right places to allow for efficient plumbing runs off the engine etc.

 

 

On the expansion vessel - how far away from the calorifier can it be?  I could  live with it coming inside into the bathroom cupboards....   maybe easier to get it secured, plumbed near to the main water pump and its accumalator.  

 

Another thought - the water tank is in the bow so the supply would run down the length of the boat.   I would like to avoid having the pump in the bedroom, preferable to have it in the kitchen or even better the bathroom.   I dont think that would be a problem would it, running that supply by just its own pressure down to the pump say some 35ish feet away?  

 

I;ll stop now!   Thanks again for any thoughts

 

 

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14 minutes ago, TandC said:

On the expansion vessel - how far away from the calorifier can it be?  I could  live with it coming inside into the bathroom cupboards....   maybe easier to get it secured, plumbed near to the main water pump and its accumalator.  

It needs to be easily accessible for the occasional pumping up of the pressure in the bladder. The same with the accumulator. As long as it is after the non-return valve in the pipe work that is heading to the calorifier, that is OK. Either on the cold water input side, or somewhere on the hot water circuit on the output side. There are advantages to it being on the cold water in side, in that you are not emptying out the cold water in the expansion vessel every time a tap is run, then refilling it with hot water when the tap is closed.

 

14 minutes ago, TandC said:

Another thought - the water tank is in the bow so the supply would run down the length of the boat.   I would like to avoid having the pump in the bedroom, preferable to have it in the kitchen or even better the bathroom.   I dont think that would be a problem would it, running that supply by just its own pressure down to the pump say some 35ish feet away?  

I have mine over 15' away. I can't see your plan not working. These pumps don't like drawing water up a significant height, but with the bow up trim of most boats, your pump will be lower than tank level anyway. Perhaps use 22mm pipework between tank and pump? One advantage, assuming the batteries are near the stern, is that the wiring length to the pump will be shorter. This means lower voltage drop, or a chance to reduce the wire cross sectional area and still get acceptable voltage drop.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Thanks Jen, that's helpful.

 

I can run the cold supply from the bow, through the bathroom at the rear, expansion vessel in the bathroom cupboard, through the bulkhead and into the calorifier.

 

 

My priority is to work out our window placement - which means fixing the size of our layout - which means fixing the size of the bathroom - which means fixing does it need the space for a calorifier or not!  annnnnd BREATHE.... 

 

I will try to work out now how much room there will be alongside the engine and whether there is room to fit a vertical calorifier, and how it is secured.   There will be a Beta50 inside a sound-proofing enclosure, so I'm hoping there's room alongside that up against the bulkhead for fitting.  

 

 

For anyone with a calorifier in the engine bay - how is secured?    Would I need some studs on the baseplate to bolt it down on?  a dedicated plate fabricating in for it to stand on?

 

 

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1 hour ago, TandC said:

For anyone with a calorifier in the engine bay - how is secured?    Would I need some studs on the baseplate to bolt it down on?  a dedicated plate fabricating in for it to stand on?

 

I think most horizontal ones in the engine bay seem to sit on the swim rather than the baseplate. Either way welding something to allow securing the fixings will be needed.

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Thanks Tony, 

 

I was thinking more a vertical one, but you help reinforce the point that I need to speak to the boat builder about both the available space alongside the engine, and suitable fixing points being built in now.

 

As the engine will have a sound enclosure, I shall need to check how much space is left and also the orientation/routing of any pipework out of that enclosure to inform the placement of the calorifier. 

 

I was thinking then that the battery bank could be located on the opposing side, which would help in balancing out the weight. 

 

Last question:   Stainless steel calorifier.....   is that a better option than copper?   Any recommendations for high-quality suppliers?   i prefer to get this right with good quality component not cut corners on price. 

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I glued a couple of battens to the swim with bolts prefixed coming upwards to take the calorimfier and that worked ok.

I mounted my water pump above the tank level deliberately and had my take-off in the top of the tank and this worked well.  Once the syphon had been initially established it would stay.  

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6 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

I glued a couple of battens to the swim with bolts prefixed coming upwards to take the calorimfier and that worked ok.

I mounted my water pump above the tank level deliberately and had my take-off in the top of the tank and this worked well.  Once the syphon had been initially established it would stay.  

Thanks 4-50;  is your second point referring to the water pump above the main water tank, take off in the top of the tank?    When you say "deliberately" - why?    I was imagining that the water tank would generate a degree of its own pressure - perhaps as Jen suggested use 22mm supply pipe to give a really positive flow rate into a pump which would be BELOW the tank level.

 

I'm not sure I understand why you would have it above? 

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1 minute ago, TandC said:

Thanks 4-50;  is your second point referring to the water pump above the main water tank, take off in the top of the tank?    When you say "deliberately" - why?    I was imagining that the water tank would generate a degree of its own pressure - perhaps as Jen suggested use 22mm supply pipe to give a really positive flow rate into a pump which would be BELOW the tank level.

 

I'm not sure I understand why you would have it above? 

When I service the pump, the water in the pipe flows back into the tank, I don't have to drain the tank.  But you could have a valve out of the tank.  But then when you need to service the valve the same applies.   I just don't see the need to have a vulnerable fixing in the bottom/side of the tank when my pump happily works (worked) from the top.

PS I had mine set up to suck up from 2 tanks.

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I see thanks.  I have always just had service valves at the pump and also at tank so I can isolate to allow me to remove the pump.  But I do see there is a little more risk there with a bottom-mounted supply from the tank. 

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The other thing you need to think about if installing a calorifier and expansion vessel in an unheated engine space is any potential for pipes to freeze in a very cold winter while nobody is aboard and any immersion heater is switched off. The advantage of installing a vertical calorifier in the engine bay is that if it does leak it's probably going to be easier to clean up the mess. Swings and roundabouts innit.

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10 hours ago, TandC said:

Great this is all helpful.   

 

On water heating options - currently we have a Morco which i love for its bomb-proof simplicity, but it's so weary trying to get anyone to ever service it safe etc.   A boiler also takes up room and it doesn't help with heating.  So i've made the decision that we take the plunge and do away with gas boiler now.   Instead, we are planning on a Webasto/Eber for hot water and central heating, and then a Squirrel stove without a back boiler.   

 

We are also on mains hookup and for the majority of winter and so have the option of an immersion for hot water.    I'm not sure what is more expensive now - a diesel heater or heating a large tank with an immersion....   I guess if the Webasto fails, we have the option of lighting the fire to keep warm and using the immersion to heat water.

 

 

With regard the layout, having done our layout plan as best we can, the bathroom will be as Mr Smelly described - down the steps from rear deck, orientated to the left hand side.  Immediately on the right will be the bathroom, and then beyond that the kitchen also orientated on the right so this puts all the hot water requirements as close as can be.  

 

On the calorifier - I would ideally like it in the engine bay because I really want to max out the space inside the cabin, it seems crazy to put a big water tank inside that precious area if it could go in the engine bay which will be large.    I can see the pros of it being inside a cupboard in the bathroom - heat loss is coming inside, create an airing cupboard.  But it feels outweighed by the cons of space taken up, and i am a bit nervous about the potential to have it leaking inside the cabin - is it not a little safer for it to be in the engine bay? 

 

@MrSmelly - is yours vertical or horizontal in the engine bay, and what size is it?   I know that 55lts is currently not enough for two of us living onboard so want to go larger.   If you don't mind I will PM you perhaps for a picture or two if you could? 

 

How is the calorifier fitted and secured in the engine bay? 

 

I'm thinking I need to speak to the builder about this now so that fitting points etc can be fabricated in as they construct, in the right places to allow for efficient plumbing runs off the engine etc.

 

 

On the expansion vessel - how far away from the calorifier can it be?  I could  live with it coming inside into the bathroom cupboards....   maybe easier to get it secured, plumbed near to the main water pump and its accumalator.  

 

Another thought - the water tank is in the bow so the supply would run down the length of the boat.   I would like to avoid having the pump in the bedroom, preferable to have it in the kitchen or even better the bathroom.   I dont think that would be a problem would it, running that supply by just its own pressure down to the pump say some 35ish feet away?  

 

I;ll stop now!   Thanks again for any thoughts

 

 

PM replied to :cheers:

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40 minutes ago, blackrose said:

The other thing you need to think about if installing a calorifier and expansion vessel in an unheated engine space is any potential for pipes to freeze in a very cold winter while nobody is aboard and any immersion heater is switched off. The advantage of installing a vertical calorifier in the engine bay is that if it does leak it's probably going to be easier to clean up the mess. Swings and roundabouts innit.

Thanks - I was thinking about that as part of hte pros/cons.   We live onboard all year so aside from holidays away we have a year-round requirement for hot water etc.   We're also on the river with a high flow rate during the winter - so much so that we are stuck on the mooring for 5 months of the year.  That water flow does help keep temperatures up - I've never seen the river freeze.  We also have mains power, so I would in the worst case if we were away during winter I could just stick a heater in the engine bay to keep freeze risk off.     As you say, that seems to be very much outweighed by the space saving in the cabin and also the ease of dealing with any leaks.       That said - im now realising that installing the calorifier in the engine bay, and worst case having to replace it, will be a total bugger of a job working under a cruiser stern, alongside the engine etc.... 

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1 minute ago, TandC said:

That said - im now realising that installing the calorifier in the engine bay, and worst case having to replace it, will be a total bugger of a job working under a cruiser stern, alongside the engine etc.... 

If the builder is fitting the cauliflower, rather than you, if they put it in before the engine, watch out that replacing the calorifier isn't going to require the engine to be removed first!

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