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is it upside down or down side up..??


kiwiSteve

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Hi guys.. my first go so...

 

I just installed a used (I guess they are all used now days) BMC Commodore 3.4Ltr Diesel engine into my old Hartley New Tidesong to replace the stuffed one that was already in there. it's been a project happening over the last couple or three years... quite exciting stuff, I tell you...

Purchased a huge 1000cca cranking battery, fitted a hefty great reconditioned starter, new Racor diesel dryer, new CenteK water lock muffler,, all the good stuff.

purchased and installed a Heat Exchanger and set up the plumbing and pumps etc ready to go, and finally got to run her up for the first time...

This will be the third time it has been started in the last 3 years 1x mechanic on purchase  1x on receiving engine from purchase and now.

clicked on the ignition all lights ready to go and pushed the started button.... third compression and away she went.. A beautiful thing to behold

I Let her idol for some time while I checked whether I had hooked the pumps up around the right way and whether there was any water coming out the end or not 

It had that sound that only a BMC makes that makes you want to smile, a more wonderful thing would be hard to find

OK... 5 minutes starting to warm up the thermostat opened so switched off to check oil and water... Oh No,,, a sump full of grey oil,... bugger!!

With much frowning I began to pump out the 11.4Ltrs of brand new oil I just put in... bugger!!

anyway, cleaned up the mess and grabbed my tool box (here we go again) whipped the head off and rockers and injectors out and took it in to the head shop for a little R&R..(if you know about BMC valves you know to get a professional to fix them.. to many extra bits )

Heres a stroke of luck... I managed to score the last 1961 BMC 3.4ltr Marine Diesel Engine (commodore) DeCarb set in New Zealand.. I am so pleased,..

On looking over her this morning I got to wondering which side of this head gasket do I place on the engine block, one side is flat the other has the joints and folds etc, I was going for the folded side to the bottom, Would anyone out there be able to enlighten me please

 
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These engines are wet sleeve ,and at this point in time ,I wouldnt be surprised if a liner is leaking,either pinholed thru or the seals hardened and detoriated .........I agree ,they are a quality motor ,unfortunately later on the 4 /98 version was tarred with all the union trouble that made spares unobtainable

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I read on here somewhere a while ago something about oil pressure keeping water from entering the oil ways but when you stop the engine the loss of oil pressure allows the remaining water pressure to pass water into the oil.. interesting in that the water seemed to keep entering the sump even after the engine had stopped... I have since had the head pressure tested and all was OK

Edited by kiwiSteve
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There is little or no pressure in the sump whilst running so the theory that water pressure puts water into the oil after the engine has stopped is bunkum.

You have a liner gone or loose at the bottom I guess.

 

Head gaskets are usually marked top.  If you inspect the oil and water way holes through the gasket it should be obvious which way up it goes. From memory I think the ridged side goes down but not sure.

  • Greenie 1
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A while ago I rebuilt a Caterpillar six with a liner cavitated thru at the crevice groove ............replacing the liners is childs play........or should be ,except the block will also have considerable cavitation in the liner seal bores............EDIT.....may not be all bad.......the single seal groove is in the block ,and the liner is smooth on the OD...........this may negate problems of block damage ............a really good manual on these engines is the Nuffield tractor one ................there is also a full section on the 3.4,3.8.5.1 ,5.7 and 4 and 6/98 in the Leyland Boxer truck manual..........nice clear drawings and parts diagrams...........parts may also be available from tractor restoration sellers..

Edited by john.k
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Many wet liner engines using a pair of O rings for the bottom seal have a hole drilled through the block into the gap between the two O rings. This is a combined tell-tale/drain so when/if the top seal starts to fail you see coolant exiting the drilling. I am not sure about the BMC 3.x series, but I think I saw some rusty residue in about the right place on the College 3.x engine. If you fit new liners and seal ensure those drillings are clear if your engine has them.

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Just got the call from the head man and she's all brand new again... he's a good bloke

 

Ive got all the bits and tools etc to pull this head down again so I thought I might as well give it another go with this nice ground head and a fresh gasket,.... you just never know..

 

stay tuned for more cock ups to come...😝

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In antique engines with no spares,Ive silver soldered the cavitation holes in liners .........I actually think something of epoxy type would work ,as there is no compression pressure at the bottom of the liner ,just water............IIRC .the 3.4/3.8  have a single square section seal ...and no weep hole ............I must say the Perkins 4/270 in my tractor has been weeping either water ot oil ever since Ive owned it ,which is over 40 years............they have 3 rings with a weep hole over a blank groove............quite often these motors have 1" of sludge in the bottom of the jacket which more or less seals water leaks until the cavitation holes are quite large,when the hole suddenly become 1/8" or so ,and water floods the sump.

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  • 3 weeks later...

well what a fun time I've been having over here on the other side of the world....you don't realize just how far away we are until you want something shipped.

 

anyway after much mucking about ( it was recommended that I use a copper gasket spray as there was 8 thou removed from the head to bring it back to square, I desided to use the VHS brand purchased some and proceeded to spray this new gasket down ready to fit... ended up with a slippery sticky 'yuk' sort of a mess, very difficult to deal with) I got the head down.... oh dear still water coming in... bugger

 

I scratched my head for a while and figured it had to come off again.... BUGGER

 

Now its all very well using gasket cements and copper sprays but if you need to remove the head again you will need to do it really soon,..I waited 45 minuets and the copper spray had almost set off and removing the gasket was very difficult.

 

spent a few hours trying to understand my failed attempt (cant remember the amount of Vauxhall and Holden heads I've done over the years)...Oh....,<B> wrong gasket!!</B> 

 

the gasket man had sent a gasket for the engines without a firelip on the liner... bugger

 

Ive got a really good excuse for my stuff up not checking the gaskets better before installing... I was a little over excited and rushed and I had sprayed the gasket with the sticky goo copper spray crap and was having trouble getting the nasty stuff everywhere (first and last time I ever use that again) so just put it down and dropped the head on top so didn't notice any problems 

 

good thing is I have managed to score yet another gasket, hopfully the right one this time.

 

So things are still happening down under just going to take a bit longer.

 

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On 07/10/2022 at 07:23, Tony Brooks said:

Have a look here, potage might be expensive for the liners though https://agrilineproducts.com/nuffield/nuffield/4-60/engine

 

That might not be the correct engine, but it shows a 3.4.

Great place for parts thanks for the suggestion Tony but their p&p is 57pounds freight ($120.00nz) seals were 10 pound, freight 57 pound.. hmmmmm

 

found Charnley's site same really good parts site 11 pounds freight.. wow

Edited by kiwiSteve
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12 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Just a thought, have you checked the liner protrusion. Liners often stand proud of the block, and I have known people file/sand them off when cleaning the block face. I have no idea what it is on those engines.

you can see on the new gasket where the liner firelip has left an indent around the combustion ring

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Some of these diesels were also made as gas motors with low compression pistons and spark plugs...........the diesels were  made over a period of years as Austin Diesels,BMC diesels and Leyland Diesels........and as vehicle motors,tractor motors ,industrial motors and boat motors..........so at this point something like 70 years after the first one left the factory,you expect to have some problems with spares..............you would probably find it less stressfull to replace it with a 4/236 Perkins

  • Horror 1
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2 hours ago, john.k said:

Some of these diesels were also made as gas motors with low compression pistons and spark plugs...........the diesels were  made over a period of years as Austin Diesels,BMC diesels and Leyland Diesels........and as vehicle motors,tractor motors ,industrial motors and boat motors..........so at this point something like 70 years after the first one left the factory,you expect to have some problems with spares..............you would probably find it less stressfull to replace it with a 4/236 Perkins

I would prefer the BMC.  Or a Canaline engine is a drop in easy replacement.  The BMC 1.5 and 1.8 were/are still being made in India and Turkey respectively I believe so lots of spare but some of dubious quality.

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58 minutes ago, Tracy D&#x27;arth said:

I would prefer the BMC.  Or a Canaline engine is a drop in easy replacement.  The BMC 1.5 and 1.8 were/are still being made in India and Turkey respectively I believe so lots of spare but some of dubious quality.

 

I am not sure either would suit the OP. He has a BMC 3.4 four cylinder and probably needs the power the larger engine gives him. However, I agree that given the Australian spares situation for his engine fitting a more up-to-date engine may well be a better option. I also wonder what gearbox he has. If it is a BMC DCB or DCC then he will face a spares problem for those as well. I get the impression a lot of DCC boxes went down under on the larger BMC engine for marine use. (I have only seen a DCC box in a manual).

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8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I am not sure either would suit the OP. He has a BMC 3.4 four cylinder and probably needs the power the larger engine gives him. However, I agree that given the Australian spares situation for his engine fitting a more up-to-date engine may well be a better option. I also wonder what gearbox he has. If it is a BMC DCB or DCC then he will face a spares problem for those as well. I get the impression a lot of DCC boxes went down under on the larger BMC engine for marine use. (I have only seen a DCC box in a manual).

Is this the engine that JCB used to fit to their plant?

I missed the reference to the 3.4 litre engine, apologies.

Being in Australia explains the indecision about which way up.....................................................

  • Greenie 1
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