Any suggestions for a week from Swanley Bridge Marina on the Llangollen Canal this autumn?

[tree monkey]

On 03/10/2022 at 09:23, robtheplod said:

I can imagine Llangollen would be lovely in the Autumn.....

The trip is at it's best on a cold winter day with the mist in the valley below you and frost on the fields as you drift past

[Tony1]

51 minutes ago, Coryton said:

Very wise words!

 

I think an attitude that we'll head towards Llangollen and see how far we get is an excellent one.

 

 

 

 

 

I hope you'll excuse me harping on, but just a thought: if you do stick your neck out a bit timewise in order to make it to say Trevor, or indeed Llangollen, the time you might find yourself gunning it will be on the return journey, and that is the one that could turn into an 8 hour slog each day. 

I'm not sure if this is going to be feasible, but one thing I would try to do is press on during the evening and make some miles, if that means you will be ready to go through a lock flight early.  

The boat traffic might be no problem at all by now, but I remember last July there was a queue of 16 boats to go down through the New Marton locks by 10am, so that took a while. 

I set off to go through Grindley Brook at 8.30am (I think it was mid Sept last year), and there were already two boats ahead of me, and one coming the other way. 

You dont want the whole return journey to be a 5mph slog with hardly any stops, but if you do want to press on a bit, the time that it makes more sense is when it means you can get close to a lock flight and make an early start next morning to beat any queues. 

I would have added an hour to my wait at Grindley Brook if I'd arrived there at say 10am, for example. 

I'm sure by now the traffic will have reduced a lot, and you'll probably not see many queues (if any), but you'll get a feel for the traffic level when you're on the outward journey, and you can plan accordingly.

If I was doing that trip (which I will be in week or so!) as a hire boater, I'd be temped to put my foot down, and try to get past Grindley Brook as soon as possible. The first day or so is the time to put in some hours, as there's not much of interest to a family on holiday.

E.g. Wrenbury only has one small shop, and there's not a great deal to see really. I thought that Whitchurch was the area when it started to get more interesting, so maybe thats the place you can take things a bit slower, and have a leisurely stroll into town, maybe a meal out etc. 

Anyway, I'm stating the obvious again- apologies.

And have a great trip. 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Tony1

[Lady M]

The flow should make the return trip quicker.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

 

I half remember that old saying- to travel hopefully is better than to arrive (or something like that).

In the context of narrowboat cruising, I find it an interesting question- is the journey more important, or reaching the destination?

Its probably a mixture of both, with the proportions depending on an individual's character, and on the journey type.

In the case of 8000 metre mountaineers, for example, reaching the top is everything, and the climb itself is often an unpleasant and exhausting grind.  

Personally, I went as far as Trevor basin last summer, but I was starting to find the increased boat traffic a bit tiresome, and I ended up turning around and heading back towards Chirk, with the idea of coming back at a future (quieter) time in order to reach Llangollen itself 

 

I do totally understand that with the restricted boating time you have, there will be an approach of making the most of it- so 6 hours cruising per day will not seem like an imposition or a chore of any kind. 

But with there being others aboard who are perhaps less invested in the experience of cruising, I think you are right to wonder if some form of compromise would be wise. 

I went on a hire boat holiday almost a decade ago, and I remember I set a target destination based on average speed and cruising hours per day, etc.

Having mileage targets to meet each day did start to take the edge off of the enjoyment a little bit, and it meant we didnt stop at all the places we would have. And when we did stop, it was not for as long as we might have liked to. 

Its one thing to say 'we cant stop for milk because we need to reach X place today', but its a bit more of a problem when you find yourself saying: 'we cant take a walk into that valley underneath the aqueduct, because it might stop us reaching Llangollen.' 

What is happening in the latter case is that you are giving up what could be really nice local experiences, in order to carry on chugging towards your destination. 

Ultimately you could catch a bus or cab into Llangollen if you get within say 10 miles of it, but if you hit a queue or other delay of any sort, I would advise not trying to make up the time by putting the throttle down and going 4mph for the rest of the day. 

It makes sense to have a goal of getting to Llangollen, but don't let yourself slip into that mindset where it becomes a crusade. 

 

 

It's certainly worth finding the time to walk down to the river under the aqueduct if you get there, the engineering and views are fabulous...

[Tony1]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's certainly worth finding the time to walk down to the river under the aqueduct if you get there, the engineering and views are fabulous...

 

Wales is such a lovely country, it truly is.

It's the same thing with Scotland- I can still remember the first time I passed through those huge glens, and saw the western coastline with its incredible scenery where the sea meets the mountains.

And I can remember thinking- yes, I get it now. I can see why you people love this country so much. 

 

 

[Coryton]

46 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I hope you'll excuse me harping on, but just a thought: if you do stick your neck out a bit timewise in order to make it to say Trevor, or indeed Llangollen, the time you might find yourself gunning it will be on the return journey, and that is the one that could turn into an 8 hour slog each day. 

 

Anyway, I'm stating the obvious again- apologies.

And have a great trip. 

 

 

Not at all...and thanks for the advice.

 

I do wonder though how many boats they will actually have to turn round to go straight out again when we get back.

 

 

[Tony1]

22 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Not at all...and thanks for the advice.

 

I do wonder though how many boats they will actually have to turn round to go straight out again when we get back.

 

 

 

When I was returning my hire boat, I had this idea that 'they have to have the boat back right on time, or they might lose their £1000 fee from the next hire person' - and there were dire warnings of penalties if we were late. 

But by the end of the first week of November, I suspect half the hire boats will no longer be in regular use. The Llangollen might be an exception with it being so pretty and so popular, but I remember passing the hire base at Bunbury locks last winter (to be fair I think it was January), and it looked as if every boat they had was moored up and unused. 

 

Just a thought here, but in November you're going to need the heating on. I'm guessing it will have diesel CH rather than a coal stove, so keep your eye on the battery voltage.

My hire boat had a knackered battery. It was flat by 9pm after a 7 hour cruise (ie lots of charging), followed by 2 hours of TV with the CH on, which is not a lot of power. 

They probably make sure the batteries are ok in winter as they know the CH heating is essential (especially on those cold mornings), but just a thought. 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Tony1

[Coryton]

6 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Just a thought here, but in November you're going to need the heating on. I'm guessing it will have diesel CH rather than a coal stove, so keep your eye on the battery voltage.

My hire boat had a knackered battery. It was flat by 9pm after a 7 hour cruise (ie lots of charging), followed by 2 hours of TV with the CH on, which is not a lot of power. 

They probably make sure the batteries are ok in winter as they know the CH heating is essential (especially on those cold mornings), but just a thought. 

 

 

Yes diesel central heating.

 

If the batteries don't last, I'll be phoning up and asking them to swap them for something better. (Of course that won't help with the whole getting-to-Llangollen thing...)

[Tony1]

18 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Yes diesel central heating.

 

If the batteries don't last, I'll be phoning up and asking them to swap them for something better. (Of course that won't help with the whole getting-to-Llangollen thing...)

 

The thing is that when I hired, I cant remember being told anything about batteries or voltages, so I wouldn't have known where to look anyway.

Thats probably why many hire boat batteries are not in great shape.

But I don't want to cause any alarm- for people hiring in winter, they will make sure you have a decent bank of batteries to keep the CH running. The last thing they want is to have to send someone out in a van with a new battery. 

But there's no harm in you keeping an eye on the battery voltage, just out of interest as a potential future boat owner.

At a very basic level there's a well-published scale that tells you roughly how much charge is left in a lead acid battery- you estimate the remaining charge by looking at the voltage.

The snag is the voltage needs to be read when the battery is resting, which it very rarely is when there are people living aboard. 

But anyway, it'll be fine- they wont send you out in November with a duff domestic battery bank.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Tony1

[Coryton]

20 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

The thing is that when I hired, I cant remember being told anything about batteries or voltages, so I wouldn't have known where to look anyway.

Thats probably why many hire boat batteries are not in great shape.

 

I have a vague understanding of how the electrical side works on a boat, though I wouldn't know what voltages to expect from a lead-acid.

 

I remember being told on one cruiser we hired that it had separate batteries for domestic power and to start the engine. But it really didn't look as if it was arranged like that...if it was, then there must have been a separate battery hiding somewhere else...

 

I like the idea of having proper radiators rather than warm air heating as we had on the cruiser we were on last autumn.

[Tony1]

39 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

I have a vague understanding of how the electrical side works on a boat, though I wouldn't know what voltages to expect from a lead-acid.

 

I remember being told on one cruiser we hired that it had separate batteries for domestic power and to start the engine. But it really didn't look as if it was arranged like that...if it was, then there must have been a separate battery hiding somewhere else...

 

I like the idea of having proper radiators rather than warm air heating as we had on the cruiser we were on last autumn.

 

I'm certainly no electrical expert, but I do know that a normal narrowboat will have an engine starter battery, plus a few batteries to power the domestic electrics, so I'm sure yours will have that kind of setup.

Your boat will have a decent battery bank for winter, but purely out of interest its nice to take a look at the domestic battery voltage an hour or two after you stop the engine, and again later in the evening. Unless you're in the pub, of course.

Its all about priorities 😄  

 

As a liveaboard boater, the batteries are super important to me, and I find myself checking the voltage and state of charge % at least once every hour, just from habit. 

Nick Norman (of this parish) has made allegations that I have some sort of ongoing romantic relationship with my lithium batteries, on the flimsy pretext that I read bedtime stories to them, and tuck them in at night.

The truth is even worse. In fact I'm so careful that I only read from 20 to 80% of each bedtime story.

(That's a terrible lithium battery in-joke, one that normal people should be thankful they don't get.) 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Tony1

[Tony1]

 

If you've not yet tried canal boating in winter conditions (even early winter like November), it might not be immediately apparent how muddy it can get. 

It's very likely there'll be some rain either before or during your trip, and once you get into November there are some stretches of towpath that seem to stay muddy for days and days.

So whoever is working the paddles and gates will be trudging through several inches of mud in some locations, even if its not raining on that day.

This is only my way of doing it, but what I do is to wear wellies when cruising, but also keep some other footwear near to the door so I can kick off the wellies and slip into the clean dry footwear whenever I step back inside the boat. That saves me having to clean up the mud that would otherwise get walked into the boat. 

Another thing to bear in mind when cruising in colder weather is just how chilled you can get standing on the stern for 6 or more hours of the day, so once it gets into November I always wear thick gloves, and at least one extra pair of socks, and often two extra pairs (the wellies let more of the cold air down to your feet).  

I can't pretend I actually enjoy cruising in the rain and cold, but at the same time bad weather doesnt have to spoil your holiday, as long as everyone is prepared.

If I remember it right, early November has been fairly dry the last couple of years, so fingers crossed you might get a pretty nice week.  

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Tony1

[Coryton]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

If you've not yet tried canal boating in winter conditions (even early winter like November), it might not be immediately apparent how muddy it can get. 

It's very likely there'll be some rain either before or during your trip, and once you get into November there are some stretches of towpath that seem to stay muddy for days and days.

So whoever is working the paddles and gates will be trudging through several inches of mud in some locations, even if its not raining on that day.

This is only my way of doing it, but what I do is to wear wellies when cruising, but also keep some other footwear near to the door so I can kick off the wellies and slip into the clean dry footwear whenever I step back inside the boat. That saves me having to clean up the mud that would otherwise get walked into the boat. 

Another thing to bear in mind when cruising in colder weather is just how chilled you can get standing on the stern for 6 or more hours of the day, so once it gets into November I always wear thick gloves, and at least one extra pair of socks, and often two extra pairs (the wellies let more of the cold air down to your feet).  

I can't pretend I actually enjoy cruising in the rain and cold, but at the same time bad weather doesnt have to spoil your holiday, as long as everyone is prepared.

If I remember it right, early November has been fairly dry the last couple of years, so fingers crossed you might get a pretty nice week.  

 

 

Thanks for that.

 

I currently have "Wellies?" on my packing list so I shall remove the question mark. (And nice warm lined ones they are too).

 

Boating on the broads at the end of October last year I spent plenty of time at the helm exposed to the elements. Fortunately there wasn't much rain and it wasn't too cold either, though I was prepared for it being chilly. (It was a dual steer boat but I much prefer sitting higher up and with a good view all round to peering through a windscreen).

 

As for whether it will be wet or dry....it will be what it is and after all it is (partly) in Wales...

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

 

Thanks for that.

 

I currently have "Wellies?" on my packing list so I shall remove the question mark. (And nice warm lined ones they are too).

 

Boating on the broads at the end of October last year I spent plenty of time at the helm exposed to the elements. Fortunately there wasn't much rain and it wasn't too cold either, though I was prepared for it being chilly. (It was a dual steer boat but I much prefer sitting higher up and with a good view all round to peering through a windscreen).

 

As for whether it will be wet or dry....it will be what it is and after all it is (partly) in Wales...

It'll be wet, it's in Wales 😉

[Captain Pegg]

Point of order. Over 80% of the Welsh Canal, i.e. the Llangollen, is in England. Hence if you turn back much before Llangollen you might not even make Wales at all, and that would mean missing the bits that folk go to the Llangollen to experience. So, while Llangollen is a good run from Swanley Bridge - particularly after the clocks go back - you're really, really not going to want to turn back without reaching Trevor. Personally I always hired with a destination in mind and always reached it. I tend to still boat similarly today.

[fatmanblue]

Go for Llangollen.  If you get vaguely reasonable weather it will be a fantastic trip. Autumn boating is beautiful.

 

Worth remembering that the Llangollen canal has a flow. The return trip will be slightly quicker than going upstream. Chris Clegg's map suggests over 2 hours quicker and I find it more reliable than Canalplan for timings.

 

As this is 'out of season', and if your time allows, how about speaking to the boatyard and enquiring about the possibility of an extra day?

[Coryton]

2 minutes ago, fatmanblue said:

Go for Llangollen.  If you get vaguely reasonable weather it will be a fantastic trip. Autumn boating is beautiful.

 

It was wonderful on the Broads last Autumn. Less daylight, but on the upside it meant travelling in the lovely golden sunlight in the morning.

 

4 minutes ago, fatmanblue said:

Worth remembering that the Llangollen canal has a flow. The return trip will be slightly quicker than going upstream.

 

Much better that way round!

 

I'm used to flowing water - the idea of a canal that doesn't flow seems strange.

 

Not having to tides to worry about is nice though.

 

 

[Coryton]

Well we're back!

 

Thanks to everyone for their advice (and particularly Tony1 for suggesting wellies - it was quite muddy and they were easy to kick off at the steps rather than walk mud through the boat).

 

The other thing I'm glad I brought is some nice warm slipper socks. 

 

We all had a lovely time, with a bit of rain and a lot more sun. 

 

We got as far as Chirk, which was a satisfying place to turn round (and we had a very good lunch there in The Hand). We turned the boat before Chirk then walked in and did the aqueduct and tunnel on foot. 

 

It made a good week, with plenty of time to stop off and see some of the places we were passing through.

 

For some reason for most of the time we were consistently taking about 30% longer than the timings on the (rather good) Waterway Routes chart I downloaded, then on the last two days we started beating the timings. I don't know why. I can see that the flow helps a bit, but the first day heading back towards Swanley we were still going slowly (it was very windy though).

 

As a result the last two days were very relaxed because I'd left a fair bit more time than it turned out that we needed (which is far better than the other way round at this time of year with the daylight so limited).

 

At first it all seemed a bit strange compared to river cruising - the boat seemed a lot more cramped than a river cruiser for the same number of people, and it took a while to get used to how much heavier it is - stopping a fibre glass cruiser with the ropes is a lot easier. And (this was I'm sure more to do with the boat design than narrow boats in general) there were very few flat places to put anything down other than the beds, and it would have been nice to have somewhere to put a drink mug down other than the floor when at the tiller.

 

I also found driving much less relaxing - if you let go of the wheel on a boat with hydraulic steering it just stays there, whereas the tiller has a life of its own when you take your hand off it. And there always seems to be something to hit on a canal if you aren't paying attention the whole time.

 

But after a few days I really got into it and appreciated the advantages. There's certainly satisfaction in getting through a bridge hole without touching the sides, and the novelty of doing locks and lift bridges didn't wear off. And being able to stop pretty much anywhere is a huge advantage - instead of having to moor up long before it gets dark to make sure of getting somewhere, we could just keep going until it started getting dark then stop where we were. Radiators are a lot better than the warm air heating we've had on cruisers, and it's nice having a proper shower cubicle rather than a squashed "wet room". And being able to get off and walk along the towpath alongside the boat is something that's rarely possible on a river.

 

So far as anything moving went, we pretty much had the canal to ourselves. We'd pass a few boats a day going the other way and that was it, and there was no waiting around at locks.

There were very few other hire boats out, but lots of liveboard boats moored along the canal.

 

I'm glad it was out of season - it meant that on our first attempt at handling a narrow boat we weren't having to deal with queing at locks and mooring close to other boats without hitting them (though there was one lock where a couple of hire boat crews had decided that the bollards at the lock mooring were the perfect place to spend the night).

 

One of the highlights was coming back through the Grindley Brook staircase without a volunteer lock keeper on duty. Much more fun to do it on your own, and we weren't in a hurry so we could just enjoy doing the locks without feeling rushed.

 

One of the not highlights was coming back through Ellesmere and turning the corner just as a hire boat came the other way, then being unable to turn the right way with the wind and current being very unhelpful. Fortunately someone more experienced took pity on me and took the controls (they might have had a bit of a vested interest though as I think theirs was the boat I was trying not to hit as I attempted the turn).

 

I was surprised that crossing the locks was generally on walkways on the gates - I thought that these days they came with footbridges. Not a problem for us, but I can imagine some people would be unhappy having to do that.

 

So - it hasn't left me with the urge to buy a narrow boat and live on it, or give up river cruising holidays, but I'd very happily do another narrow boat holiday.

 

I can see why the Llangollen canal is so popular, and it's rather convenient that at the less scenic end it keeps your interest up with plenty of locks.

 

I'm quite tempted to do a shorter hire from the Llangollen end some time to do the bits we missed though,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coryton]

I do have one question for the good folk on this forum though.

 

We paid £85 up front for fuel and have just been asked for abother £94.

 

Does that sound reasonable for travelling from Swanlea to Chirk and back (I think it's about 60 miles round trip) plus having the Eberspächer on in the evenings (but not overnight!)?

 

 

[john6767]

Did you keep track of the engine hours that you did?  
 

As a first approximation if you said you did 50 hours, that’s say 75 litres.  Add on another 15 litres for the heater, so say 90 litres total.  At 60/40 split it will get getting on for £2 a litre I suspect, so £180 would be in the right ballpark.

[Coryton]

11 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Did you keep track of the engine hours that you did?  
 

As a first approximation if you said you did 50 hours, that’s say 75 litres.  Add on another 15 litres for the heater, so say 90 litres total.  At 60/40 split it will get getting on for £2 a litre I suspect, so £180 would be in the right ballpark.

 

Thanks.

 

I didn't keep track of engine hours specifically, but I did track travelling time because I wanted to make sure we'd be back to base on time.

 

I make it 37 hours of travel, so maybe a little more than that in engine hours.

[Annie cariad]

Go to Chester /ellesmere port great cruise no drama 

[booke23]

18 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Thanks.

 

I didn't keep track of engine hours specifically, but I did track travelling time because I wanted to make sure we'd be back to base on time.

 

I make it 37 hours of travel, so maybe a little more than that in engine hours.

Say 40 engine hours...that's 60 litres plus 15 litres for heating makes 75 litres......I paid £1.45 domestic/£1.90 propulsion to fill my boat up last week, which in your case with a 60/40 split would be £129, so your £179 bill seems rather steep to me.

[Coryton]

2 minutes ago, booke23 said:

Say 40 engine hours...that's 60 litres plus 15 litres for heating makes 75 litres......I paid £1.45 domestic/£1.90 propulsion to fill my boat up last week, which in your case with a 60/40 split would be £129, so your £179 bill seems rather steep to me.

 

Thanks.

 

To be fair I haven't looked at the small print (I didn't book the holiday) - so I don't know what their policy is on charging for fuel.

 

When I've hired boats before they've said they would charge fuel at cost price - and sometimes got us to witness the boat being filled up at the end so we knew they were being fair (though no point in this case as without a fuel gauge we'd have no way of knowing if the tank was full at the start).

 

Well, for various reasons we wouldn't be rushing to hire from this company again anyway.

 

 

 

[Ken X]

We regularly hire in winter, often over New Year.  Usually our boats are gas heated with a solid fuel fire but, one year we were transferring a boat from one yard to another on a one way trip and had no choice but to have a boat with a diesel heater.  We were out for 10 days and were ice breaking every lock and every morning to get going as it was around -15 some nights.  On arrival at the destination yard we were presented with a spectacular diesel bill as we had, not unsurprisingly, been spanking the Webasto.  We pointed out that a lot of their boats were gas heated and we would not have been charged a penny for heating if we had used one of these.  They readily agreed and halved the bill so all was well.  Worth checking as I believe you are only supposed to pay for propulsion diesel.