Battery Types

[SandyD]

Hi,

 

I have just joined the forum and we are in the process of buying a narrow boat. The survey has flagged that we need 4 new leisure batteries any reccomendations on type? (We won't be going lithium!)

 

Thanks in advance

 

S&L

[rusty69]

Hi, Welcome aboard.

 

I would recommend a type that has the same size and orientation as your existing ones, so that they fit in the existing enclosure and the existing cabling reaches Ok without any modification.

 

The brand will depend upon your budget.

 

How much did you want to spend?

 

Typically, if you don't want to go down the Lithium route, your options are for standard lead acid (sealed or open), gel or AGM types, though other fancy chemistry's are available.

[Tony Brooks]

Lead Acid batteries of any type should be viewed as consumables like oil and filters so budget to replace them restively frequently. For a new boater maybe after a few weeks or months if you don't understand the charging and have no way of monitoring them to perhaps 10 years plus for an experienced boater who paid a lot of money for them. Perhaps the average is around the 3 to 5 years.

 

So, unless you properly understand the monitoring and charging AND you have monitoring equipment you understand I would suggest that you don't spend too much until you get your head around it all.

 

Maybe look at between around £90 & £120 for a 110Amp hour battery. It is much easier for a boater t test an open cell battery than any form of sealed ones.

 

I expect this will give rise to other questions so ask away.

 

 

[BEngo]

Do you wish to pray to them once nightly, and four times on Wednesdays, or just to fit them, use them and renew them?

 

If the first buy Trojans and the necessary  monitoring kit.

 

If the second,  buy common or garden leisure batteries from someone like Tayna or Shield.  Check the weight of each battery before you buy.  Heavier means more lead;  is better if you ate not over paying for it.  If possible get open cell ones and top them up with distilled water monthly.  If that is too much effort buy maintenance free ones.  In either case ignore the magic eye. It only looks at  1/6 of the battery.

 

Get a multi meter and a DC clamp meter for checking them when they appear knackered.

N

[Tony Brooks]

PS. Read the Battery Charging Primer pined close to the top of the Maintenance Forum

 

 

Edited September 29, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[Tracy D'arth]

Until you learn how to look after them, buy the cheapest you can find because it is likely that they will get abused and not charged properly which will lead to a short life even for the best and most expensive.

[MtB]

28 minutes ago, SandyD said:

Hi,

 

I have just joined the forum and we are in the process of buying a narrow boat. The survey has flagged that we need 4 new leisure batteries any reccomendations on type? (We won't be going lithium!)

 

Thanks in advance

 

S&L

 

 

I'd ignore that if I were you. Or at least until you work out if the existing battery bank is good enough for your use patterns. 

 

I'd also be wondering how the hell the surveyor knows your batteries need replacing. It's not a five minute job determining the capacity. 

 

More likely, the surveyor is just relying on the likelihood they have not been well looked after and therefore suggests replacement. I suggest if you buy the boat, you just kick back and see how the batts behave, then come back here and ask more questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

I'd ignore that if I were you. Or at least until you work out if the existing battery bank is good enough for your use patterns. 

 

I'd also be wondering how the hell the surveyor knows your batteries need replacing. It's not a five minute job determining the capacity. 

 

More likely, the surveyor is just relying on the likelihood they have not been well looked after and therefore suggests replacement. I suggest if you buy the boat, you just kick back and see how the batts behave, then come back here and ask more questions.

 

I think that is good advice.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

I'd ignore that if I were you. Or at least until you work out if the existing battery bank is good enough for your use patterns. 

 

I'd also be wondering how the hell the surveyor knows your batteries need replacing. It's not a five minute job determining the capacity. 

 

More likely, the surveyor is just relying on the likelihood they have not been well looked after and therefore suggests replacement. I suggest if you buy the boat, you just kick back and see how the batts behave, then come back here and ask more questions.

 

I agree. Five years ago I bought a boat with 4 110Ah open cell lead acid domestic batteries. Using the boat soon showed them to be knackered. As a temporary measure I disconnected all four and fitted one replacement. 3 years later, and having fitted solar in the meantime, the 'temporary' battery was still going strong, albeit that we had had to be careful about the use of electricity in the meantime (turn off the fridge when the engine isn't running, turn off unnecessary lights etc.). You may not wish to be as parsimonious as that, but worth giving the existing batteries a go first.

Edited September 29, 2022 by David Mack

[blackrose]

Yes, ok agree too. If for example you plan to be in a marina with shore power over winter with a battery charger switched on, even if the batteries were completely knackered your 12v system will be fine - at least until you switch the charger off and unhook the shore power cable. 

[Tracy D'arth]

15 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Yes, ok agree too. If for example you plan to be in a marina with shore power over winter with a battery charger switched on, even if the batteries were completely knackered your 12v system will be fine - at least until you switch the charger off and unhook the shore power cable. 

Agreed, give the old batteries a chance but be aware that a defective battery can overheat when charged hard and even burst throwing acid and hydrogen sulphide gas  out. Keep an eye on them, if you get the bad eggs smell, its time to check them carefully. ( it is a poisonous gas )

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

I'd ignore that if I were you. Or at least until you work out if the existing battery bank is good enough for your use patterns. 

 

I'd also be wondering how the hell the surveyor knows your batteries need replacing. It's not a five minute job determining the capacity. 

 

More likely, the surveyor is just relying on the likelihood they have not been well looked after and therefore suggests replacement. I suggest if you buy the boat, you just kick back and see how the batts behave, then come back here and ask more questions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, this will give you time to get in to a routine, work out what is going on.

You probably have a starter battery and one two three or more domestic batteries. The starter might be the same type as in a car, the others should be the ones that run lights, water,pumps, shower  etc. So you likely have two battery banks. Hope that has not confused you, but you need to keep that starter battery charged to start the engine, and keep the others happy so they don't die too quickly.

[BEngo]

23 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Keep an eye on them, if you get the bad eggs smell, its time to check them carefully. ( it is a poisonous gas )

It is a particularly nasty gas as you rapidly get used to the stink and do not notice the smell,  but it carries right on killing you. It even turns gold black.  Fortunately it sets off CO alarms, so if you get an unexpected alarm and/or hot /or bow-ended batteries  get off the boat swiftly. Turn off any charger  (incl solar) and allow things to cool before going back.

N

[bizzard]

These old ridged airships used to be filled with hydrogen and a few had the same fate as this one, Hindenburg

[Stroudwater1]

Agree with ignoring the survey, ours were flagged as needing replacing but are still going strong 19 months on. They are sealed ones that the surveyor “tested” and the voltage was down but  hadn’t been charged or used for a while before the sale. 
 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Agree with ignoring the survey, ours were flagged as needing replacing but are still going strong 19 months on. They are sealed ones that the surveyor “tested” and the voltage was down but  hadn’t been charged or used for a while before the sale. 
 

That just shows that testing a sealed battery is not a quick or easy job. A hydrometer in an open cell battery may take 15 minutes seeing where many boat batteries are located but it does not need the batteries charging, or the test instrument matched to the battery.

[Hudds Lad]

9 hours ago, bizzard said:

These old ridged airships used to be filled with hydrogen and a few had the same fate as this one, Hindenburg

Was that when they let Michael York have a go at driving it?

[SandyD]

Thanks All for the replies,

 

I will follow the wait and see policy! I suspect that Stroudwater1 may well be correct in that he batteries have not been used for a while,

 

Sandy

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, SandyD said:

Thanks All for the replies,

 

I will follow the wait and see policy! I suspect that Stroudwater1 may well be correct in that he batteries have not been used for a while,

 

Sandy

 

In which case unless they have been kept well charged that MIGHT have lost a lot of capacity but only trying them after charging will tell.

[Bee]

Personally I have always used mid range, mid price conventional lead acid as there is a lot of them and therefore prices tend to be competitive. They work perfectly well for a few years and then one day they don't.  I think the biggest problem with batts. is asking too much of them, They cannot be a substitute for household mains electric so running fridges, telly and all the other stuff found in boats these days is beyond them. If you buy a really big battery bank then charging the things is problematic. We have a cheap 300w inverter that charges phones, tools, laptop etc and an hour of telly a day, we have a 12 v fridge that is turned off at night and a few leds Two 110AH batts will last 24 hours and still have 12 v in them but we do at least 4 hours cruising a day (usually)  Electricity on a boat is a scarce resource and very hard to replace and store.

[roland elsdon]

Replaced 5 year old battery in our car with required agm battery 3 years and 2 months ago, sudden catastrophic failure in Belgium.

Last week the super agm battery failed without warning. Car would start even though battery was showing 11.95 volts but would them fail to stop start and advise of various faults ( no brakes no steering no engine fault codes galore. )  Replaced the battery from Honda and interestingly they supplied a non  agm  one, covered in Honda branding.

Suspect agm means a gullible motorist.

 

[Tony Brooks]

54 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Replaced 5 year old battery in our car with required agm battery 3 years and 2 months ago, sudden catastrophic failure in Belgium.

Last week the super agm battery failed without warning. Car would start even though battery was showing 11.95 volts but would them fail to stop start and advise of various faults ( no brakes no steering no engine fault codes galore. )  Replaced the battery from Honda and interestingly they supplied a non  agm  one, covered in Honda branding.

Suspect agm means a gullible motorist.

 

 

FWIW a properly constructed AGM battery should be more resistant to plate shedding than wet lead acids. The wadding between the plates will help to support the oxide powder that the plates are made from. A good one may also have the plates in glass fibre pockets like good quality lead acids. There are well-made ones and undoubtably badly made ones, just like wet lead acids.

 

As a matter of interest has anyone checked the charging voltage - if too high it will destroy batteries.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[BEngo]

The reason modern stop-self start motors have AGM batteries is two-fold:

 

The AGM is a starved electrolyte battery, so is less susceptible to sulphation at part-charge, because their are fewer free sulphate ions.

 

One of the myriad car computers controls the alternator to charge on the overrun and during braking when the energy is 'free' and  does  not appear in CO2 testing  The battery needs to have  space to accept this charge so the charge control is set up to not normally fill the battery beyond about 80%.  This is likely to enhance sulphation in an ordinary LA battery.

 

Hence AGM.

 

N

[roland elsdon]

It was a top of the range varta agm  Correct codes for car. With a european ( remember them) wide 3 year warranty.

The alternator shows 14.3 volts engine running no other load on , after an hours running.
My experience with this and the lovely elecsols of a few years ago means its el cheapo lead acids in everything from now on.

The boat starter battery was a halfords bought in 2012 . Bought on the sole basis it would fit in the box.

[blackrose]

14 hours ago, Bee said:

I think the biggest problem with batts. is asking too much of them, They cannot be a substitute for household mains electric so running fridges, telly and all the other stuff found in boats these days is beyond them. 

 

Is it? But lots of people run all those appliances from their batteries. As long as the batteries are decent In the first place, monitored, an appropriate charging regimen applied and the batteries are topped up if/when required, then they can be used to run mains appliances.

 

You're right that one shouldn't expect too much of them, but within the monitoring and charging parameters above you can run whatever you like.

 

I use Trojan lead/acids. They're not much more expensive than a lot of lesser quality batteries on the market and they perform better than any sealed lead/acids. But they must be maintained.

Edited October 1, 2022 by blackrose