National standard for boaters' facilities

[cuthound]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

Just so, the CRT are intending to provide more services where needed 

This does not mean every so

 many miles. Distance ie mileage has little to do with access, not if one has to negotiate locks etc.

 

Fly tippers will not be easy to identify, they'll just wear masks.

Fencing won't help If the bins are never emptied, boaters will just throw bags over the fence.

Ive seen biker groups using toilets, with a key.  Really that's not a problem, problem is people accessing with crowbars 

 

 

 

 

Putting key numeric pad locks on facilities and only advising licensed boaters of the entry code (and changing the code frequency) will go some way to prevent non-boaters, reinforced by CCTV.

[MoominPapa]

My suggestion for rubbish facilities was hoppers, located on the offside and only accessible by boat. Something similar works in Northwich, where the bins are in a pontoon next to the CRT yard. To do the same thing where the location is not accessible for emptying, you'd need to arrange to remove the rubbish by water, probably by replacing a full hopper with an empty one and taking the full one to somewhere where it could be discharged.

 

MP

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Could be used as an excuse to close facilities, as they don't meet, or can't be upgraded to meet the national standard.

 

As I said earlier, I suspect there will be a drive to close CRT facilities and pay boatyards and marinas to allow CRT customers to use theirs free of charge.

 

This makes sense where it costs CRT more to maintain its own facilities than to pay a third party and should eliminate vandalism and non-boater abuse.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

6 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

As I said earlier, I suspect there will be a drive to close CRT facilities and pay boatyards and marinas to allow CRT customers to use theirs free of charge.

 

This makes sense where it costs CRT more to maintain its own facilities than to pay a third party and should eliminate vandalism and non-boater abuse.

And lead to a reduction in boat license fees with the money saved. 🤣🤣🤣

[cuthound]

13 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

And lead to a reduction in boat license fees with the money saved. 🤣🤣🤣

 

I'd settle for the same licence fee and more maintenance, but I think CRT will spin the survey results to increase licence fees whilst making savings to their facilities budget. 😥

[DaveP]

The problem with using third parties such as Boatyards and the like to provide services is the lack of guarantee that they'll continue to provide the service, either by going out of business, selling the site onto someone else, or unilaterally repudiating the contract.  At that point, what are CRT going to do? It'll take time to rebuild/reinstall a service point (if it's even possible).  The same is true at the edges of the network where they're claiming they can rely on other navigation authorities - they can't and they shouldn't be expecting boaters to pay the other licence fees to travel on others' waters.

It's clear from the wording that the IWA are still on their crusade against continuous cruisers as their criteria  for closer positioning of services in heavily used areas only refers to boats on unserviced moorings - not those on the general length of the towpath.  The criteria for heavily used areas should relate to boats sighted in that area over time not just those on long-term moorings.

 

The 5 (or 2) hour distance potentially also works badly for those on unserviced moorings - imagine a mooring with a service area 2 hours away; but the next winding place is a further 1 hour beyond that - so to go from your mooring to the service point _and back again_ actually takes 6 hours cruising....  [Now - let's find those moorings!]

 

But, there do need to be standards, and the services need to be protected from those who shouldn't be (ab)using them....

[Bod]

4 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

I’ve also seen walkers, dog walkers (professional ones), van lifers, caravanners, motorhomers, fisherman et al do the same, keys are easily available from eBay.

I do see this as a problem, as they are paying nothing towards any of it, they’re not even buying the keys from CRT as they get them cheaper elsewhere. I can’t see a way to stop this though sadly, the cat is out of the bag so to speak with the keys.

The answer to the wide availability of "Water-mate"/BwB keys is for all the locks to be changed to Restricted Blank Keys.

This is where the key blanks are only made for and are only available to one company who can restrict the circulation of the cut keys.

Obviously there will be a large cost to this, which can be partly off-set by a deposit scheme, and key serial numbers.  All licenced boats can apply for up to two keys only, keeping key quantities low, control is possible.

 

Bod.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, MoominPapa said:

  Something similar works in Northwich, where the bins are in a pontoon next to the CRT yard.

Have you seen the poor bloke down there handballing all the crap out up to a skip when they are full.

35 minutes ago, DaveP said:

The problem with using third parties such as Boatyards and the like to provide services is the lack of guarantee that they'll continue to provide the service, either by going out of business, selling the site onto someone else, or unilaterally repudiating the contract.  At that point, what are CRT going to do? It'll take time to rebuild/reinstall a service point (if it's even possible).  The same is true at the edges of the network where they're claiming they can rely on other navigation authorities - they can't and they shouldn't be expecting boaters to pay the other licence fees to travel on others' waters.

It's clear from the wording that the IWA are still on their crusade against continuous cruisers as their criteria  for closer positioning of services in heavily used areas only refers to boats on unserviced moorings - not those on the general length of the towpath.  The criteria for heavily used areas should relate to boats sighted in that area over time not just those on long-term moorings.

 

The 5 (or 2) hour distance potentially also works badly for those on unserviced moorings - imagine a mooring with a service area 2 hours away; but the next winding place is a further 1 hour beyond that - so to go from your mooring to the service point _and back again_ actually takes 6 hours cruising....  [Now - let's find those moorings!]

 

But, there do need to be standards, and the services need to be protected from those who shouldn't be (ab)using them....

You can make those comments on the survey. Maybe CCers don't join IWA so in which case they couldn't make their views known

[MoominPapa]

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you seen the poor bloke down there handballing all the crap out up to a skip when they are full.

Emptying the land based bins is no better when they are (inevitably) over-full.

8 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

You can make those comments on the survey. Maybe CCers don't join IWA so in which case they couldn't make their views known

I have.

 

MP.

[DaveP]

4 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Have you seen the poor bloke down there handballing all the crap out up to a skip when they are full.

You can make those comments on the survey. Maybe CCers don't join IWA so in which case they couldn't make their views known

I have made those points on the survey.  I made them here so others might comment/correct/further my thoughts.  I've been a residential moorer, a leisure moorer and a cc'er in my time afloat ; never felt that IWA is an organisation that's campaigning to ensure that CRT is fit for purpose.  So I've not joined - but have joined other more focussed groups...

[Iain_S]

43 minutes ago, Bod said:

The answer to the wide availability of "Water-mate"/BwB keys is for all the locks to be changed to Restricted Blank Keys.

This is where the key blanks are only made for and are only available to one company who can restrict the circulation of the cut keys.

Obviously there will be a large cost to this, which can be partly off-set by a deposit scheme, and key serial numbers.  All licenced boats can apply for up to two keys only, keeping key quantities low, control is possible.

 

Bod.

The BWB key is already a restricted blank one. Problem is that other key manufacturing companies, apart from Yale, use similar blanks. If you compare an eBay special with a genuine BWB key, you can see the difference.

[BEngo]

If the off side rubbish hoppers were flat topped they could be loaded with a couple or 3 biffa type bins then, when the bins are full towed to an unloading ramp and replaced by empties and towed back again.  The waste company then collects/ empties the full ones.

Towage would be a volly (volboater?)   job.

The fulls awaiting collection and any  spare empties would need to be kept secure from fly-tippers.

 

Getting boatyard and marinas to provide alternatives to CRT facilities will be a very  hard ask. Loads of costs, (even if CRT offers to pay), loads of hassle: no benefits.  I would bet  CRT will find this is a dearer option than in house.  New marinas could be coerced through a change to the NAA, but the existing ones are not likely to  want to sign-up to  changes without some payback..  Boatyards dont need an NAA AFAIK, so could only be got on board at lease renewal time, and only then if they are on a CRT lease.

 

N

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

As I said earlier, I suspect there will be a drive to close CRT facilities and pay boatyards and marinas to allow CRT customers to use theirs free of charge.

 

This makes sense where it costs CRT more to maintain its own facilities than to pay a third party and should eliminate vandalism and non-boater abuse.

It does not make sense expecting commercial boatyards to allow access 24/7, free of charge. I've used some where it's free and they don't have many users, others have a coin in the slot where they do eg linear marinas.

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, DaveP said:

The problem with using third parties such as Boatyards and the like to provide services is the lack of guarantee that they'll continue to provide the service, either by going out of business, selling the site onto someone else, or unilaterally repudiating the contract.  At that point, what are CRT going to do? It'll take time to rebuild/reinstall a service point (if it's even possible).  The same is true at the edges of the network where they're claiming they can rely on other navigation authorities - they can't and they shouldn't be expecting boaters to pay the other licence fees to travel on others' waters.

 

Why would any boatyard or marina decide not to offer their facilities to CRT if they are paid to do so? 

 

They have made a significant investment in providing the facilities in the first place and by entering a contract with CRT means it will enjoy a greater rate of return.

 

The only times I have known marinas and boatyards restrict access to facilities are where they have a hire fleet and restrict access on turnaround days.

 

Can you provide examples where third parties have unilaterally decided to no longer provide facitirs such as water and elsan disposal to those that are not their own moorers?

[Lady M]

I know a marina where the bins are locked overnight and Elsan point is only available for moorers.

[cuthound]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

It does not make sense expecting commercial boatyards to allow access 24/7, free of charge. I've used some where it's free and they don't have many users, others have a coin in the slot where they do eg linear marinas.

 

Seems to work at Fazeley, where CRT closed their offices and adjacent water point, elsan and rubbish disposal and entered a contract with Fazeley Mills Marina to provide these facitirs "free" to.CRT boaters. They are not 24/7, but why would they need to be? Very few boaters use CRT facilities in the dead of night.

[DaveP]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Why would any boatyard or marina decide not to offer their facilities to CRT if they are paid to do so? 

 

They have made a significant investment in providing the facilities in the first place and by entering a contract with CRT means it will enjoy a greater rate of return.

 

The only times I have known marinas and boatyards restrict access to facilities are where they have a hire fleet and restrict access on turnaround days.

 

Can you provide examples where third parties have unilaterally decided to no longer provide facitirs such as water and elsan disposal to those that are not their own moorers?

When CRT sold off BWML to Aquavista, several did.  The one that was closest to me at te time was Packet Boat at Cowley Peachey Junction. Limehouse Basin has also restricted non-moorers from  their facilities in recent years using covid as an excuse, but not lifting the restrictions to date....

[Arthur Marshall]

11 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Why would any boatyard or marina decide not to offer their facilities to CRT if they are paid to do so? 

 

They have made a significant investment in providing the facilities in the first place and by entering a contract with CRT means it will enjoy a greater rate of return.

 

The only times I have known marinas and boatyards restrict access to facilities are where they have a hire fleet and restrict access on turnaround days.

 

Can you provide examples where third parties have unilaterally decided to no longer provide facitirs such as water and elsan disposal to those that are not their own moorers?

The elsan point at the chandlery at Barbridge junction used to be available to anyone. For a while it was a quid to use and now it's padlocked for use only by their moorers. There's a notice saying it's £2 to others, but as the chandlery is shut and there's no one to ask I suspect it's just an old sign.

It'll also be interesting to see any changes to waste collection now Biffa has been sold to, I believe, a US hedge company.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Arthur Marshall

[cuthound]

4 minutes ago, Lady C said:

I know a marina where the bins are locked overnight and Elsan point is only available for moorers.

 

This makes sense when there is no contract with CRT because the marina's costs are directly linked with the frequency these facities need emptying.

 

They would expect CRT to pay for the anticipated increased usage, us a profit margin.

4 minutes ago, DaveP said:

When CRT sold off BWML to Aquavista, several did.  The one that was closest to me at te time was Packet Boat at Cowley Peachey Junction. Limehouse Basin has also restricted non-moorers from  their facilities in recent years using covid as an excuse, but not lifting the restrictions to date....

 

Again, unless CRT paid the new owners of the ex BWML marina's for everyone to use the facities, it is only to be expected that they would restrict facilities to there own customers or charge handsomely for them.

[Lady M]

There was a comment in the survey about the cost of maintaining the buildings associated with boater services.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Seems to work at Fazeley, where CRT closed their offices and adjacent water point, elsan and rubbish disposal and entered a contract with Fazeley Mills Marina to provide these facitirs "free" to.CRT boaters. They are not 24/7, but why would they need to be? Very few boaters use CRT facilities in the dead of night.

With the lay out at Fazeley Marina I would expect it to be ok to use the bins and Elsan out of hours. 

But it may be trickier at other mariners or yards where gates/doors could be locked and closed for use to anyone out of hours, other than residents.
And I would perhaps expect that for their security. 

 

I see a future increase in the sale of shovels and of manhole keys. 

[cuthound]

2 minutes ago, Goliath said:

With the lay out at Fazeley Marina I would expect it to be ok to use the bins and Elsan out of hours. 

But it may be trickier at other mariners or yards where gates/doors could be locked and closed for use to anyone out of hours, other than residents.
And I would perhaps expect that for their security. 

 

I see a future increase in the sale of shovels and of manhole keys. 

 

But why do CRT boaters need access to facities 24/7? It can be too difficult to coincide your elsan emptying with the marina's opening hours.

 

Yes, looks like it could be a good time to invest in shovels and manhole keys. 🤣

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

But why do CRT boaters need access to facities 24/7? It can be too difficult to coincide your elsan emptying with the marina's opening hours.

 

Yes, looks like it could be a good time to invest in shovels and manhole keys. 🤣

 

 

Come winter plenty of yards and marinas will cut back on their days of opening. 
Might even shut for periods of time,  over Christmas for instance. 
 

Ok, none of that makes life impossible but it easily become a pain in the arse. 
 

 

[Bod]

2 hours ago, Iain_S said:

The BWB key is already a restricted blank one. Problem is that other key manufacturing companies, apart from Yale, use similar blanks. If you compare an eBay special with a genuine BWB key, you can see the difference.

There are fully restricted blanks, protected by Patent, that can only be released to authorized users.  Much higher security, and cost...

 

Bod.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, BEngo said:

Getting boatyard and marinas to provide alternatives to CRT facilities will be a very  hard ask. Loads of costs, (even if CRT offers to pay), loads of hassle: no benefits.  I would bet  CRT will find this is a dearer option than in house.  New marinas could be coerced through a change to the NAA, but the existing ones are not likely to  want to sign-up to  changes without some payback..  Boatyards dont need an NAA AFAIK, so could only be got on board at lease renewal time, and only then if they are on a CRT lease.

 

N

Fazeley Mill do it now but its the only one I know of