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What knots?


jupiter1124

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On 29/09/2022 at 17:37, jupiter1124 said:

I think as with many things, knots are easy once you know how. I don't feel the need to learn two bends that are basically for the same purpose, so I'd rather just learn the better one?

I find the (double) sheet bend is easier to do, it looks aesthetically pleasing, but if I intended to use a knot to join two ropes with the intention of applying maximum force I would use a Carrick Bend. Unfortunately I came late to that knot, so I'd need to practice it.

Ashley's book of knots, which is the Bible of knots rates the sheep bend as essential, but  I'd say the bowline is the most useful all round knot if one only learnt one knot.  I use it for my two bow mooring ropes.

I use the canalnans hitch, most frequently. The clove hitch for security on dollies.

The round turn and two half hitches for my centrelines, and to moor at a bollard sometimes if sharing.

Edited by LadyG
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12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I use the canalnans hitch, most frequently. The clove hitch for security.

 

The boatman's hitch is extremely useful, but the clove hitch used for mooring can tighten so that the only way to release it is with a knife - not very economical, and something that was never used on any of our craft.

 

Tam

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15 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

The boatman's hitch is extremely useful, but the clove hitch used for mooring can tighten so that the only way to release it is with a knife - not very economical, and something that was never used on any of our craft.

 

Tam

In total agreement about the boatman's hitch because it sounds as though you, like me, don't want to use any knot that will 'lock' for a mooring line. It's bad enough if it has just tightened because of passing boats, it gets a bit more serious however if the line has gone tight either because the water level has risen, or fallen. At least you can untie a Canalman's/boatman's hitch under load.

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20 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

The boatman's hitch is extremely useful, but the clove hitch used for mooring can tighten so that the only way to release it is with a knife - not very economical, and something that was never used on any of our craft.

 

Tam

I've been in a situation where the only option was a knife to release a clove hitch someone had tied.

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5 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I've been in a situation where the only option was a knife to release a clove hitch someone had tied.

Me too, except it was just two turns round a bollard and a half hitch, as the boat rose the two turns locked tight. Cost us a bottle of gin and a bottle of chilli source -- both together unfortunately, nothing recoverable... 😞

 

Could have been much worse if the rope hadn't been cut though, the boat was *well* heeled over by this time...

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2 minutes ago, IanD said:

Me too, except it was just two turns round a bollard and a half hitch, as the boat rose the two turns locked tight. Cost us a bottle of gin and a bottle of chilli source -- both together unfortunately, nothing recoverable... 😞

 

Could have been much worse if the rope hadn't been cut though, the boat was *well* heeled over by this time...

Interestingly you don't even need the half hitch if you are using the tapered bollards you get in some locks. If you just put a loop over the bollard the wrong way around, as the boat rises it will lock off (DAMHIK:unsure:).

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55 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

The boatman's hitch is extremely useful, but the clove hitch used for mooring can tighten so that the only way to release it is with a knife - not very economical, and something that was never used on any of our craft.

 

Tam

I only use it on that silly little dolly thing with a hefty (oversized?) mooring rope, not for everyday stuff, and its not tied on shore. I generally use it when it's blowing a gale or some other time when it must not slip off. It is not tied with that hitch at both ends I do carry a knife if handling the boat, from the shore, plus there is always one in the welldeck, and one in the aft cabin which doubles as a bottle opener. And an axe!

I've never ever had to cut any rope in anger.

Edited by LadyG
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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Interestingly you don't even need the half hitch if you are using the tapered bollards you get in some locks. If you just put a loop over the bollard the wrong way around, as the boat rises it will lock off (DAMHIK:unsure:).

That was pretty much what happened, the  bottom turn locked over the top one. All due to advice from a CART worker who suggested (to a novice daughters boyfriend) that he should put two turns round the bollard, not the one he'd been doing with no problem previously... 😞

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40 minutes ago, IanD said:

That was pretty much what happened, the  bottom turn locked over the top one. All due to advice from a CART worker who suggested (to a novice daughters boyfriend) that he should put two turns round the bollard, not the one he'd been doing with no problem previously... 😞

That is why @Tam & Di method of using ropes in locks is safer.

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3 hours ago, LadyG said:

I find the (double) sheet bend is easier to do, it looks aesthetically pleasing, but if I intended to use a knot to join two ropes with the intention of applying maximum force I would use a Carrick Bend. Unfortunately I came late to that knot, so I'd need to practice it.

Ashley's book of knots, which is the Bible of knots rates the sheep bend as essential, but  I'd say the bowline is the most useful all round knot if one only learnt one knot.  I use it for my two bow mooring ropes.

I use the canalnans hitch, most frequently. The clove hitch for security on dollies.

The round turn and two half hitches for my centrelines, and to moor at a bollard sometimes if sharing.

Careful with the sheep bend. If you get it wrong it can kill ewe.

 

Also, the canalnan knot though similar to the granny knot, should not be mistaken for a reef knot.

 

It is very easy to get the bowline wrong. Learn it correctly the first time, and it will be your friend for life.

 

The rabbit comes up the hole, runs around the tree, and goes back down the hole.

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6 minutes ago, IanD said:

Maybe, but even a boatmans/lightermans hitch -- assuming that's what you mean -- can lock up under those circumstances...

Not very likely to happen as the loops are passed under the rope under tension. I suppose there is a remote possibility of it happening going down in a lock.

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Careful with the sheep bend. If you get it wrong it can kill ewe.

 

Also, the canalnan knot though similar to the granny knot, should not be mistaken for a reef knot.

 

It is very easy to get the bowline wrong. Learn it correctly the first time, and it will be your friend for life.

 

The rabbit comes up the hole, runs around the tree, and goes back down the hole.

's fuuny I was shown how to tie a bowline a number of years ago by an expert, up until that time I'd been using the 'rabbit and hole' method and occasionally getting it wrong. The method he showed me, and I have used ever since, you never get it wrong and I can confidently say that I can tie a bowline, behind my back, blindfolded and in the dark if necessary and still never get it wrong:)

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8 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Not very likely to happen as the loops are passed under the rope under tension. I suppose there is a remote possibility of it happening going down in a lock.

's fuuny I was shown how to tie a bowline a number of years ago by an expert, up until that time I'd been using the 'rabbit and hole' method and occasionally getting it wrong. The method he showed me, and I have used ever since, you never get it wrong and I can confidently say that I can tie a bowline, behind my back, blindfolded and in the dark if necessary and still never get it wrong:)

 

 

Whats the method then?

 

I admit I used to get it wrong in the early days, but can tie it in the dark these days. Used mainly on our sailing boat, but its still my go to knot.

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13 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

 

 

Whats the method then?

 

I admit I used to get it wrong in the early days, but can tie it in the dark these days. Used mainly on our sailing boat, but its still my go to knot.

To demonstrate it is probably necessary to actually show it but (trying my best:unsure:) you get hold of the rope and about a foot from the end (depending how big a 'noose' you want) put a loop in it. From the long end (not the end you are trying to make the loop) you then feed a second loop through the first loop. You then get hold of the end of the rope and feed it through the second loop. You now have the 'noose' and holding onto the longer end just pull it all tight, the second loop pops back through the first loop and makes a perfect bowline. I don't know if that description helps, perhaps you needed to be there;)

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
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Sheet bend is always said to be for joining ropes of unequal thickness. But id suggest that's on a temporary basis.  Reef knot for joining a ropes of equal thickness they say.  If I'm showing off I use the thief knot which most people think is a reef knot but is subtly different. 

If you need to learn one more knot the bowline is the one. Often use it when towing /recovering vehicles and don't have my usual tow ropes and shackles to hand. As well as all the other uses already mentioned basically anytime you need a loop in a rope that you can untie when finished. 

 

As a teenager I always used to use the highwaymans hitch to tie up the dog looked very cool when you walked up grabbed the dangling lead end and carried on walking with the dog following, no faffing about.  

 

 

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As others have said a bowline is very handy., eg if securing to a tree. A related point is that nearly  all the time I will secure the end of the line to the bank and then tighten up and secure at the boat end. (unless I pass the line through a mooring ring etc and then back to the boat, where it is tied off). 

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1 hour ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Not very likely to happen as the loops are passed under the rope under tension. I suppose there is a remote possibility of it happening going down in a lock.

's fuuny I was shown how to tie a bowline a number of years ago by an expert, up until that time I'd been using the 'rabbit and hole' method and occasionally getting it wrong. The method he showed me, and I have used ever since, you never get it wrong and I can confidently say that I can tie a bowline, behind my back, blindfolded and in the dark if necessary and still never get it wrong:)

It's not the loops going under the rope that are the problem, it's the first two turns if the second one is above the first one (the easy way) and then the boat rises... 😞

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A couple that I learnt many moons ago for climbing but come in handy around boats are the Double Fisherman's (a type of bend) and the Alpine Butterfly. The latter is dead quick to tie and is useful where you may want a three way pull on the rope without the knot trying to pull its insides out.

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On 29/09/2022 at 21:36, Slim said:

Unless I've missed it nobody has mentioned a Grannnie knot. Best one ever devised.

 

 

I'm also surprised no-one has mentioned the most popular knot of all amongst boaters, known as the "Bird's Nest" knot or the 'Macrame" knot.

 

Very easy to tie, you just wind your line around a bollard as randomly as you like, reversing direction regularly until the all of the rope is used up. 

 

This knot shares a property with your Grannie knot in that it is generally very easy to undo, in fact it sometimes undoes itself just when you least wanted it to e.g. when you're in the shower.

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16 hours ago, IanD said:

That was pretty much what happened, the  bottom turn locked over the top one. All due to advice from a CART worker who suggested (to a novice daughters boyfriend) that he should put two turns round the bollard, not the one he'd been doing with no problem previously... 😞

I was on a small barge that hung up when that happened, It was one of the bollards set into the lock wall and as the boat went up and it pulled tight he couldn't get it off to put on a higher bollard. Needless to say it was a manual lock and the keeper had opened the top paddles and buggered off to his hut

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19 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Careful with the sheep bend. If you get it wrong it can kill ewe.

 

Also, the canalnan knot though similar to the granny knot, should not be mistaken for a reef knot.

 

It is very easy to get the bowline wrong. Learn it correctly the first time, and it will be your friend for life.

 

The rabbit comes up the hole, runs around the tree, and goes back down the hole.

That depends on which way you make the initial half hitch. Mine usually goes down the hole, up and round then back up.

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On 29/09/2022 at 13:14, alias said:

>>

Surprised no one has mentioned clove hitches which can be useful in some circumstances.

 

On 29/09/2022 at 13:15, ditchcrawler said:

Something I never use

 

Quite right too. The clove hitch has two major shortcomings: it slips when you want it to stay put, and it jams when you want to undo it.

 

There's always a better knot (or hitch, or bend) to use on a boat.

 

 

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