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On English canals, is a licence really necessary?


NN247

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23 minutes ago, Murflynn said:

OP should try leaving his untaxed car parked on the road.   he knows what will happen.  why does he think canals are different?     🙄

Or she.

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1 hour ago, 1st ade said:

If the OP is genuine, I'd also suggest that asking on a public forum for advice on flouting the rules is not particularly sensible.

I doubt the OP is genuine, his Dad was an old boatman from the 60’s so I imagine he’ll be getting on in life 50/60 plus, straight away he’s started a thread that he knows will start an argument, maybe this is what he’s after?

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14 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I doubt the OP is genuine, his Dad was an old boatman from the 60’s so I imagine he’ll be getting on in life 50/60 plus, straight away he’s started a thread that he knows will start an argument, maybe this is what he’s after?

 

 

Also, sez he was on the cut 15 years ago and not many people bothered with licensing. Not my memory at all that licensing was considered optional back in 2007.

 

Maybe it was in other areas from mine. 

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34 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Also, sez he was on the cut 15 years ago and not many people bothered with licensing. Not my memory at all that licensing was considered optional back in 2007.

 

Maybe it was in other areas from mine. 

Seem to remember somewhere about the mid 70's was the first mutterings on licences. And yes I ignored them then 😱

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41 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Also, sez he was on the cut 15 years ago and not many people bothered with licensing. Not my memory at all that licensing was considered optional back in 2007.

 

Maybe it was in other areas from mine. 

I wonder what area his Dad was a working boatman on, Midland/Southern  canals or around the Northern waterways/Trent?

Edited by PD1964
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The real honest answer is that the OP can get a boat with no name, no number and no licence and put it on a canal and not worry too much if he/she is that sort of person. CRT might decide its too much trouble to track him down, and if they can they will spend maybe 2 years trying to encourage him to get a licence. There is a chance that his boat will eventually be lifted out but he might even be able to avoid this by selling it to a "friend" at the last minute.  This is not a decent and honourable way to behave but a few people do choose this lifestyle. About 5% of boats do not have a licence. He/she will find that many other boaters will regard him as a bit of an ar**hole and he will miss out on much of the pleasure of boating, and if he gets into difficulty some boaters might even choose not to offer help. He will also likely become bitter and twisted and turn to drink/drugs to consle himself.

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Well I guess this forum is way more popular than I realised.

 

To the people wondering if I'm trolling or whatever.  I'm kind of baffled.  I assume you're new to the canals, because licenses and stuff, until I suppose pretty recently, were not really a thing anyone who lived on the canals properly thought about.  It was more people who had a boat as a holiday home that bothered with them.  There's a point with any rule where compliance is common enough that you're the bad guy if you don't comply, and there's a point where compliance is rare enough that you're an idiot if you do comply.  I'm out of the know these days (in so far as I ever was in the know), and I'm just trying to find out where we're at with that.  A few answers here (just a few) have actually been useful in explaining that, so that you to these (handful) of people.

 

My practical purpose is that I'm considering buying a boat that needs an interior makeover, and I'm costing that out to see if the level of profit would be worth it.  I'd need to move it from where I buy it to where I'd work on it, so I'm just trying to see if I really need to spend hundreds of pounds just for a couple of weeks only to put in drydock where the license would be wasted, or if I could feasibly skip that, and only buy a license at the end of the renovation/let the next owner buy the license.

 

To the people wondering about my dad, and my age and all that, you're... weird, but fine: my dad started carrying coal in 1960 and then later passengers.  He worked all over England, and then moved to Europe in the 70s.  In the 90s he moved back to England, and became a trainer.  He was in his 40s when I was born.  I'm in my 30s.  He died a few years ago, which is why I can't simply ask him this stuff anymore.  I don't know why anyone needed to know that, but there you go.

 

Again, thanks to those who actually addressed the question.  dmr especially, thanks, that makes sense of the situation.

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6 minutes ago, LadyG said:

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Seems as though ive found a bug 

To OP.

Boats are difficult to fit out.

The cost of licence and insurance are easy to find.

if you intend to make an investment, buy a house!

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, NN247 said:

Well I guess this forum is way more popular than I realised.

 

To the people wondering if I'm trolling or whatever.  I'm kind of baffled.  I assume you're new to the canals, because licenses and stuff, until I suppose pretty recently, were not really a thing anyone who lived on the canals properly thought about.  It was more people who had a boat as a holiday home that bothered with them.  There's a point with any rule where compliance is common enough that you're the bad guy if you don't comply, and there's a point where compliance is rare enough that you're an idiot if you do comply.  I'm out of the know these days (in so far as I ever was in the know), and I'm just trying to find out where we're at with that.  A few answers here (just a few) have actually been useful in explaining that, so that you to these (handful) of people.

 

My practical purpose is that I'm considering buying a boat that needs an interior makeover, and I'm costing that out to see if the level of profit would be worth it.  I'd need to move it from where I buy it to where I'd work on it, so I'm just trying to see if I really need to spend hundreds of pounds just for a couple of weeks only to put in drydock where the license would be wasted, or if I could feasibly skip that, and only buy a license at the end of the renovation/let the next owner buy the license.

 

To the people wondering about my dad, and my age and all that, you're... weird, but fine: my dad started carrying coal in 1960 and then later passengers.  He worked all over England, and then moved to Europe in the 70s.  In the 90s he moved back to England, and became a trainer.  He was in his 40s when I was born.  I'm in my 30s.  He died a few years ago, which is why I can't simply ask him this stuff anymore.  I don't know why anyone needed to know that, but there you go.

 

Again, thanks to those who actually addressed the question.  dmr especially, thanks, that makes sense of the situation.

I think your talking b@ll@x, with regards to the licensing, I’ve lived on the Canals full time coming up to 15 years and have alway had a license like the majority of people I’ve met living on them in that time. You say your out of the know and we’re never in the know, so your a 30 year old something that knows sod all about the canals or living on them.

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38 minutes ago, NN247 said:

Well I guess this forum is way more popular than I realised.

 

To the people wondering if I'm trolling or whatever.  I'm kind of baffled.  I assume you're new to the canals, because licenses and stuff, until I suppose pretty recently, were not really a thing anyone who lived on the canals properly thought about.  It was more people who had a boat as a holiday home that bothered with them.  There's a point with any rule where compliance is common enough that you're the bad guy if you don't comply, and there's a point where compliance is rare enough that you're an idiot if you do comply.  I'm out of the know these days (in so far as I ever was in the know), and I'm just trying to find out where we're at with that.  A few answers here (just a few) have actually been useful in explaining that, so that you to these (handful) of people.

 

My practical purpose is that I'm considering buying a boat that needs an interior makeover, and I'm costing that out to see if the level of profit would be worth it.  I'd need to move it from where I buy it to where I'd work on it, so I'm just trying to see if I really need to spend hundreds of pounds just for a couple of weeks only to put in drydock where the license would be wasted, or if I could feasibly skip that, and only buy a license at the end of the renovation/let the next owner buy the license.

 

To the people wondering about my dad, and my age and all that, you're... weird, but fine: my dad started carrying coal in 1960 and then later passengers.  He worked all over England, and then moved to Europe in the 70s.  In the 90s he moved back to England, and became a trainer.  He was in his 40s when I was born.  I'm in my 30s.  He died a few years ago, which is why I can't simply ask him this stuff anymore.  I don't know why anyone needed to know that, but there you go.

 

Again, thanks to those who actually addressed the question.  dmr especially, thanks, that makes sense of the situation.

I think it's possible to get a sort of dealer plate which will allow you or someone to move an unlicensed boat to a dock or hard standing, I suggest speaking to CRT

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Just now, PD1964 said:

I think your talking b@ll@x, with regards to the licensing, I’ve lived on the Canals full time coming up to 15 years

Well your "I've lived on the canals for less than 15 years" story is certainly compelling evidence that I'm wrong about the way things were over 15 years ago.

 

I didn't say I was 30.  I didn't say I was *never* in the know.  And since you care, I was literally born on a canal boat, lived on them until my teens, have worked professionally on them, and still hold qualifications in that regard.

 

I'm afraid you have no idea what you're talking about.

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1 minute ago, tree monkey said:

I think it's possible to get a sort of dealer plate which will allow you or someone to move an unlicensed boat to a dock or hard standing, I suggest speaking to CRT

Alternatively this may help:

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/licence-your-boat/short-term-visitor-licences

 

However speaking to CRT would seem the best idea.

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31 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I think it's possible to get a sort of dealer plate which will allow you or someone to move an unlicensed boat to a dock or hard standing, I suggest speaking to CRT

Trade plates, those red plates you sometimes see in boats. Not given out to anyone, with various requirements to adhere to. Not for the general public.

Edited by PD1964
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39 minutes ago, NN247 said:

 

I didn't say I was 30.  I didn't say I was *never* in the know.  And since you care, I was literally born on a canal boat, lived on them until my teens, have worked professionally on them, and still hold qualifications in that regard.

 

I'm afraid you have no idea what you're talking about.

Try reading what you previously wrote, your a 30 something and aren’t really in the know as you’ve not been near a canal in 15 year and never was an expert. Now your saying something different.
 I obviously know more about the Canals then you, as I know what paperwork you need and how it works and I don’t need to come on here asking basic questions, like you with all your Canal life and qualifications😂what qualifications? I suspect they’re all out of date as you say you have never been near the canals for 15 year😂😂😂😂

Edited by PD1964
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43 minutes ago, NN247 said:

My practical purpose is that I'm considering buying a boat that needs an interior makeover, and I'm costing that out to see if the level of profit would be worth it.  I'd need to move it from where I buy it to where I'd work on it, so I'm just trying to see if I really need to spend hundreds of pounds just for a couple of weeks only to put in drydock where the license would be wasted, or if I could feasibly skip that, and only buy a license at the end of the renovation/let the next owner buy the license.

 

I understand what your concerns are but please be very sure you do not need a licence when in dry dock, I also can't see many actual dry docks being available for long term renovations, and in most cases that sort of work takes far longer that first expected. If you put it on the land then you are correct no licence is needed.

 

I think CaRT do short term licences and as mentioned there are trade plates. It also depends upon where and the distance you need to move it. Realistically as long as you stay away from manned locks you can probably get away with no licence for a few days, and even if clocked CaRT won't have your contact details. I doubt anyone here would condone doing that, but observations suggest it is not that uncommon.

 

I think your mistake if I may call it that was being positive about no licences being required in the past. To my certain knowledge the Thames and Broads have required licences for well over 50 years and there are enamel plates suggesting the Thames requirement goes back nearly 100 years for pleasure craft. I can't see BW/CaRT being any different, but there were always chancers who ignored the regulations.

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If there were no mechanism for shifting a boat without a long term licence, then removing it from CRT waters, I could condone the approach mooted by the OP.

 

However, there is a way, so that's the way he should go.

 

He should get a short-term licence, for a week or a month. 

 

That's it.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Machpoint005
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Depending on where the boat is being moved from and to, it may pass through a lock, tunnel, or other feature that needs pre-booking with CaRT on their web site. No license, insurance, or BSS, no passage.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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1 hour ago, NN247 said:

 

 

My practical purpose is that I'm considering buying a boat that needs an interior makeover, and I'm costing that out to see if the level of profit would be worth it.  I'd need to move it from where I buy it to where I'd work on it, so I'm just trying to see if I really need to spend hundreds of pounds just for a couple of weeks only to put in drydock where the license would be wasted, or if I could feasibly skip that, and only buy a license at the end of the renovation/let the next owner buy the license.

 

Short term licenses are available for visiting boats .

You could obtain a short term license as a visiting boater providing you have insurance. It may not be true to say the boat is visiting but its a way around the issue . 3rd party only insurance is not expensive. A visiting boat doen't require a BSS. See the following link .

Short term visitor licences | Boating | Canal & River Trust (canalrivertrust.org.uk)

 

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4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Depending on where the boat is being moved from and to, it may pass through a lock, tunnel, or other feature that needs pre-booking with CaRT on their web site. It may pass through a lock flight controlled by lock keepers, volunteer, or paid. Either way, no license, no passage.

Things have obviously changed since he was a kid working the boats, all those 15 years ago, when licensing your boat wasn’t really necessary.

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BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdfHaving just trolled through the BW by laws 

http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/freedom-of-information/legal

It appears that licences became mandatory after an amendment to the by laws in 1975

The op is mistaken in his recollection as to the dates🤭

I remember in 75 just after the licence came in not bothering much about it but  a year later I had one.🥱

14 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Things have obviously changed since he was a kid working the boats, all those 15 years ago, when licensing your boat wasn’t really necessary.

He must be at least 50 if that's the case as a licence has been needed since 1975

How time flies 

 

BW_General_Canal_Bye-laws.pdf

Edited by Loddon
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45 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Try reading what you previously wrote, your a 30 something and aren’t really in the know as you’ve not been near a canal in 15 year and never was an expert. Now your saying something different.

Yes, that's what I previously wrote.  But the person I responded to said I said something different to that.  They said I was thirty, didn't know about living on a canal boat, and never was in the know.  I never said any of those things, and none of them are true.

 

Quote

I obviously know more about the Canals then you

 

Great, man.  Good for you.  Enjoy that.

 

48 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

what qualifications? I suspect they’re all out of date as you say you have never been near the canals for 15 year

A levels don't go "out of date", but yeah, the boat masters probably is.  I think they last 10 years.  Not sure about the first aid stuff. 

 

Again, who cares?  You're trying to win a competition nobody else is participating in.

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