Actual use of anchors in emergencies on UK canal/river network

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

What's needed is someone to do tests and calculations specifically  for narrowboats so we can then use a table to work out our anchor size/type.

 

Nice of you to volunteer... 🙂

 

Alternatively you could read what was posted instead of just being a sarcastic keyboard warrior, all the information you need is already there... 😉

Edited November 30, 2022 by IanD

[GUMPY]

44 minutes ago, IanD said:

Nice of you to volunteer... 🙂

 

Alternatively you could read what was posted instead of just being a sarcastic keyboard warrior, all the information you need is already there... 😉

Except I wasn't being sarcastic, for once. Not everybody can interpret figures so having it presented in a form that is simple to understand would benefit many.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Except I wasn't being sarcastic, for once. Not everybody can interpret figures so having it presented in a form that is simple to understand would benefit many.

 

He just cannot resist having a snide dig at others.

 

But cries when others do it to him.

 

Its laugable.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by M_JG

[IanD]

15 hours ago, Loddon said:

Except I wasn't being sarcastic, for once. Not everybody can interpret figures so having it presented in a form that is simple to understand would benefit many.

Understood -- as so often on the internet, it's easy to misinterpret what someone has written... 😉

 

To get away from this now very long and probably largely ignored thread, I'll put together a post about anchors based on everything that has come up on here, Alan in particular actually provided a lot of really useful information -- and there's a big point which has been missed in almost every post about how big an anchor you actually need on a narrowboat/widebout which means a lot of what is usually recommended is just plain wrong, but I'll save that surprise for the new thread... 🙂

[Mike Todd]

20 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

That is because that is what "most" narrowboaters ask for

I bet that most just ask for an anchor and would not know what Danforth meant! 

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I bet that most just ask for an anchor and would not know what Danforth meant! 

 

And if they do that, they'll almost certainly get a Danforth (or a clone) by default -- most chandlers/boatyards/boatbuilders simply don't stock or supply "advanced" anchors like the Kobra. Probably because nobody asks for them...

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

And if they do that, they'll almost certainly get a Danforth (or a clone) by default -- most chandlers/boatyards/boatbuilders simply don't stock or supply "advanced" anchors like the Kobra. Probably because nobody asks for them...

 

Chandlers will stock / supply what 'sells'.

I guess due to the lack of knowledge of canal user about anchors, when they intend to venture out onto a river thay'll just say "we want an anchor" and the Chandler  will say "these are popular with canal boaters and they are not expensive" (relatively).

 

It means they don't need to stock a variety or shapes, sizes or makes.

 

Maybe as more boaters learn that there are alternatives that work better, and for not a great 'premium' in pricing the demand for the Kobra2 or Beugal etc may increase.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Chandlers will stock / supply what 'sells'.

I guess due to the lack of knowledge of canal user about anchors, when they intend to venture out onto a river thay'll just say "we want an anchor" and the Chandler  will say "these are popular with canal boaters and they are not expensive" (relatively).

 

It means they don't need to stock a variety or shapes, sizes or makes.

 

Maybe as more boaters learn that there are alternatives that work better, and for not a great 'premium' in pricing the demand for the Kobra2 or Beugal etc may increase.

Looking at it from a business perspective, and with the current enthusiasm for buying online, why would any inland waterway chandler bother stocking anchors? You fork out £120 or so for something that is going to sit in your shop for years. Of course there is also the point of what online sales have done for other businesses; if a chandler does stock them, people will come in to use the place as a showroom to see what the anchor is like, and then go and buy them cheaper on the internet anyway.

 

Lumpy water chandlers might stock them, but I don't see much point in inland waterway chandlers stocking them, for them it is just dead money.

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Looking at it from a business perspective, and with the current enthusiasm for buying online, why would any inland waterway chandler bother stocking anchors? You fork out £120 or so for something that is going to sit in your shop for years. Of course there is also the point of what online sales have done for other businesses; if a chandler does stock them, people will come in to use the place as a showroom to see what the anchor is like, and then go and buy them cheaper on the internet anyway.

 

Lumpy water chandlers might stock them, but I don't see much point in inland waterway chandlers stocking them, for them it is just dead money.

 

The same applies to all businesses today, online is killing vast numbers of shop-type sellers -- great for the buyer who just wants the cheapest price, not so great for the shops (or people who want to actually get their hands on something before buying it)... 😞

 

Lack of awareness is the real reason this happens with anchors, neither the people buying them or selling them realise there are such differences or even care, they just think "an anchor is an anchor" -- and buy a Danforth as the de facto standard.

 

It's the reason that large parts of almost every market are dominated by cheap but mediocre products for uneducated consumers... 😞

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Looking at it from a business perspective, and with the current enthusiasm for buying online, why would any inland waterway chandler bother stocking anchors? You fork out £120 or so for something that is going to sit in your shop for years. Of course there is also the point of what online sales have done for other businesses; if a chandler does stock them, people will come in to use the place as a showroom to see what the anchor is like, and then go and buy them cheaper on the internet anyway.

 

Lumpy water chandlers might stock them, but I don't see much point in inland waterway chandlers stocking them, for them it is just dead money.

 

The chandlers at Sawley certainly used to stock them. Its were we bought ours (and chain) on the way to the Trent for the first time.

 

But that was a good few years ago now.

Edited December 1, 2022 by M_JG

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's the reason that large parts of almost every market are dominated by cheap but mediocre products for uneducated consumers...

 

A quick search of a few online chandlers shows they are actually selling "Danforth Style" Anchors, I didn't find one that was selling an 'original' Danforth branded anchor.

 

Some of the 'honest' ones actually state country of origin as China.

 

Some of the anchor testing reviews have tried the 'Danforth Style' anchors and their perfomance is considerably worse than a 'Danforth'. The 'angles' of the 'blades' is critcal (as can be seen by the Fortress anchor which is in principal almost a Danforth but with different angles and vastly improved performance.) and the Chinese just haven't 'got it right'.

 

 

Force 4 Danforth Style Anchor

Force 4 Danforth Style Anchor - An economical, traditional anchor design with strong, wide flukes which penetrate the seabed quickly & firmly. Holds very well in a variety of substrates, particularly sand and mud. Its relatively flat profile makes it great for taking up minimal space in an anchor locker, and make it the ideal choice as a main anchor on smaller boats, and a kedge anchor on larger vessels.

Made from hot-dipped galvanised steel, it is strong, durable, and stows well.

 

 

And another one :

 

 

Danforth Style 14kg Galvanised Standard Anchor Kit

 

Ref14: MS-AK14D

£165.58£146.99

Save £26.60 / RRP £173.59_{All prices include vat where applicable}

And, even Amazon jumping on the band wagon

 

 

 

LALIZAS Danforth Type Anchor Galvanised

 

Brand: Lalizas

 

 

4.7 out of 5 stars    5 ratings

 

 

 

 

---

 

 

 

£29.99£29.99

Edited December 1, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[IanD]

42 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

A quick search of a few online chandlers shows they are actually selling "Danforth Style" Anchors, I didn't find one that was selling an 'original' Danforth branded anchor.

 

Some of the 'honest' ones actually state country of origin as China.

 

Some of the anchor testing reviews have tried the 'Danforth Style' anchors and their perfomance is considerably worse than a 'Danforth'. The 'angles' of the 'blades' is critcal (as can be seen by the Fortress anchor which is in principal almost a Danforth but with different angles and vastly improved performance.) and the Chinese just haven't 'got it right'.

 

 

Force 4 Danforth Style Anchor

Force 4 Danforth Style Anchor - An economical, traditional anchor design with strong, wide flukes which penetrate the seabed quickly & firmly. Holds very well in a variety of substrates, particularly sand and mud. Its relatively flat profile makes it great for taking up minimal space in an anchor locker, and make it the ideal choice as a main anchor on smaller boats, and a kedge anchor on larger vessels.

Made from hot-dipped galvanised steel, it is strong, durable, and stows well.

 

[snip]

 

Like I said, they're cheap and nasty. But most importantly for most people, cheap... 😞

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Looking at it from a business perspective, and with the current enthusiasm for buying online, why would any inland waterway chandler bother stocking anchors? You fork out £120 or so for something that is going to sit in your shop for years. Of course there is also the point of what online sales have done for other businesses; if a chandler does stock them, people will come in to use the place as a showroom to see what the anchor is like, and then go and buy them cheaper on the internet anyway.

 

That is true of everything they sell. Limekiln and Midland Chandlers also sell online as well as ASAP Supplies (same group of companies )

[GUMPY]

I have two anchors a genuine CQR 35lbs/16kg and an unknown Danforth of about the same weight.

Which would be best to use on my 60ft NB?  I am assuming the hinge in the CQR is sound, I will check before use.

Both anchors are at least 25 years old.........

Neither has been in the water fir about 20 years.

 

[Tacet]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

... 😉

To get away from this now very long and probably largely ignored thread, I'll put together a post about anchors based on everything that has come up on here, Alan in particular actually provided a lot of really useful information -- and there's a big point which has been missed in almost every post about how big an anchor you actually need on a narrowboat/widebout which means a lot of what is usually recommended is just plain wrong, but I'll save that surprise for the new thread... 🙂

 

2 hours ago, IanD said:

. 

😞

Lack of awareness is the real reason this happens with anchors, neither the people buying them or selling them realise there are such differences or even care, they just think "an anchor is an anchor" -- and buy a Danforth as the de facto standard.

 

 😞

Will not all anchor ignorance be eradicated with your promised post correcting the almost universal errors?😉

 

[Alan de Enfield]

47 minutes ago, Loddon said:

I have two anchors a genuine CQR 35lbs/16kg and an unknown Danforth of about the same weight.

Which would be best to use on my 60ft NB?  I am assuming the hinge in the CQR is sound, I will check before use.

Both anchors are at least 25 years old.........

Neither has been in the water fir about 20 years.

 

 

Neither of them are likely to do everything that you want of them (stop you dead, first time and hold).

 

The CQR is the better of the two designs but a 16kg CQR is only SUGGESTED as suitable for use on a 35-45 foot boat (not specified as a NB, just a 'boat')

 

Extract :

 

Source : The Yachting Monthly and Motor Boating Magazine April 1934

 

The anchor which has just been described has been called the ‘C.Q.R.’ patent anchor (provisional application No. 8455/33). It was designed entirely by means of models weighing from 1 to 1½ lb. The correct angles and position of the hinge were found by trial and error and guessing. After completing the main elements of the design in this way, a large model, weight 42½ lb., was made and sent for test to the Seaplane Experimental Station at Felixstowe. We had concluded, as a result of our model tests that in good holding ground the holding power would be something like 1200 lb., and we designed the anchor to take that load. When the tests were carried out, however, the force on the cable rose steadily as the anchor dragged into the ground to the huge figure of 25 cwt (2800 lbs)., which was the maximum force measurable by the spring balance which was used. On raising the anchor the shank was found, to be bent. A heavier shank was then made, which raised the total weight to 52½ lb., and the tests repeated with a more powerful spring balance. It was then found that the holding power was 29 cwt. (3248 lbs), which is sixty-two times the weight of the anchor. This ratio 62 is about three times as great as that obtained in the same ground with the best anchor of the traditional type, and six or more times as great as the best result which would be obtained with any of the standard stockless anchors. The results seemed so encouraging that we made some specimens weighing 23 lb. on the same lines as the first 42½ lb. anchor, in order that comparisons might be made with the best obtainable specimens of the same weight but of the traditional and stockless types.

 

 

For comparison a 43lb Danforth is rated at 2000 lbs

 

 

A comparison of various anchors including Danforth & CQR

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Wanderer Vagabond]

3 hours ago, M_JG said:

 

The chandlers at Sawley certainly used to stock them. Its were we bought ours (and chain) on the way to the Trent for the first time.

 

But that was a good few years ago now.

That would seem the significant line. The advance of the internet has changed the rules quite a bit

 

It no longer makes any economic sense for chandlers to keep much in stock that is expensive, unless it is something there will be a high demand for, and anchors don't fit that remit. We have a small chandlery in the basin where I moor who keep a stock of whole lot of relatively low value stuff in constant use, rope,small fenders, Elsan Blue, coal,kindling, etc.etc. but they can get next day delivery on a whole raft of stuff so why buy it in? It's a bit like stacking money on the shelves and leaving it. 

[GUMPY]

No anchor I deploy would ever just be dumped overboard it would be gently let out on the warp once the 20metres of chan had gone and the boat brought to a gradual stop.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

8 minutes ago, Loddon said:

No anchor I deploy would ever just be dumped overboard it would be gently let out on the warp once the 20metres of chan had gone and the boat brought to a gradual stop.

Which would certainly be the sensible approach. On offshore boats where anchors are pretty much compulsory (otherwise how will you moor in some pretty little cove?) I've never lobbed it over the side and hoped for the best. I would have thought putting a single loop around the T bar and then use rope friction to slow the boat to a halt would be a decent approach. You also get a feel as to whether the anchor has bitten or not.

[GUMPY]

Just now, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Which would certainly be the sensible approach. On offshore boats where anchors are pretty much compulsory (otherwise how will you moor in some pretty little cove?) I've never lobbed it over the side and hoped for the best. I would have thought putting a single loop around the T bar and then use rope friction to slow the boat to a halt would be a decent approach. You also get a feel as to whether the anchor has bitten or not.

Absolutely and as I have bits just behind the cratch board I can do it all from the well deck and not standing dangerously on the prow.

 

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Tacet said:

 

Will not all anchor ignorance be eradicated with your promised post correcting the almost universal errors?😉

 

No, because most people won't read it or will just make sarcastic comments about it, like you.

 

But just maybe it will inform and help a few people make a better decision and therefore be seen as a small but positive contribution to the sum of human knowledge.

 

Have you ever considered making posts like that? 😉

Edited December 1, 2022 by IanD

[David Mack]

On 01/12/2022 at 17:29, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe as more boaters learn that there are alternatives that work better, and for not a great 'premium' in pricing the demand for the Kobra2 or Beugal etc may increase.

But why would more boaters learn that there are alternatives? The number of boaters reading this thread is insignificant in terms of the bigger picture. Many canal boaters rarely venture onto waters where an anchor is needed, and the vast majority that do never actually use the anchor. So where is the feedback loop that advises boaters they need something better than a relatively cheap Danforth copy?

On 01/12/2022 at 21:42, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I've never lobbed it over the side and hoped for the best.

And I doubt many sea boaters have. But for an inland boater who has never used an anchor before, or been trained in its use, and who suddenly finds himself in a panic situation where his engine has failed upstream of a weir, isn't it very likely he may do just that?