Volockies at Grindley Brook

[Jerra]

Just now, IanD said:

 

That doesn't agree with what I've found, or other posters on here. Maybe it's the way you ask (or tell...) them not to work the lock? 😉

I repeat I shouldn't have to ask them they should ask me!.  However when you have somebody standing with their windlass on a paddle and you ask them to desist they rarely do so with good grace.  They are invariably are standing ready to work the lock.

Just now, IanD said:

 

If they don't meet your exacting standards, which organisation -- presumably canal-related, since that's what they're interested in -- do you think they should be volunteering in?

Wanting them to ask before grabbing the lock and working it themselves isn't an exacting standard any more than saying please and thank you to people.  As I have said many times I am quite happy for them to volunteer for CRT and do anything which is asked of them, providing that includes what they are asked to do which is check whether help is needed or not.

Just now, IanD said:

It seems to me that you're complaining because their idea of fun conflicts with yours, and you think yours should take priority even if lots of other people are perfectly happy to let the volockies have *their* fun... 😉

No I am complaining because they insist on having their fun which happens to be my fun and I have paid a lot for the privilege of being on the canal and having my fun.   When I have paid for something i.e. having the boat on the canals and cruising I don't think it is unreasonable to be allowed to do what you enjoy.  Working the locks is the part of cruising I enjoy most.  Strange I know.

 

You seem to be saying that because volunteers are doing it free they should have priority over those of us who have paid a lot of money to be allowed to do it.  Sorry I can't agree with that.

[magpie patrick]

33 minutes ago, IanD said:

Do you actually understand risk calculations and accident statistics? If you want to reduce risk you start with the biggest causes of accidents and work down from there. For canals I expect volockies are so far down the list as to be of no consequence whatsoever... 😉

Yes, it's part of what I do for a living - next question? 

 

You are being ridiculous over heritage railways - the reason there are so few accidents is because the volunteers follow their brief to the letter, without exception - something that you claim isn't possible with canal volunteers. If canal volunteers can stick to their brief using chainsaws (and they do) why not when being volunteer lock keepers?

 

 

 

[Arthur Marshall]

27 minutes ago, Jerra said:

You are lucky.  It will be over three years since anybody asked me.   We did the 4 counties earlier in the year not a single volunteer asked if I wanted their help they just pitched in and did the lock.

Where did you meet them? There's Fradley, sometimes they're at Stone. I don't think I met any others on the 4 Counties. I've heard rumours of them at Audlem but never met one. On my dash home to Macclesfield from Northwich just before they closed the T&M I didn't see a single one.  Mind you, I do most of my boating before they wake up, so if you keep normal daytime hours you'd meet more than me. I wouldn't expect to meet more or than half a dozen on a six week cruise, which is why I really don't see them as a problem, even for those who, like you, don't like them working the locks.

27 minutes ago, Jerra said:

 

.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Arthur Marshall

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Where did you meet them? There's Fradley, sometimes they're at Stone. I don't think I met any others on the 4 Counties. I've heard rumours of them at Audlem but never met one. On my dash home to Macclesfield from Northwich just before they closed the T&M I didn't see a single one.  Mind you, I do most of my boating before they wake up, so if you keep normal daytime hours you'd meet more than me. I wouldn't expect to meet more or than half a dozen on a six week cruise, which is why I really don't see them as a problem, even for those who, like you, don't like them working the locks.

.

Fradley were the ones in mind I don't remember if there was anybody at stone.

[IanD]

32 minutes ago, Jerra said:

[snip]

No I am complaining because they insist on having their fun which happens to be my fun and I have paid a lot for the privilege of being on the canal and having my fun.   When I have paid for something i.e. having the boat on the canals and cruising I don't think it is unreasonable to be allowed to do what you enjoy.  Working the locks is the part of cruising I enjoy most.  Strange I know.

 

You seem to be saying that because volunteers are doing it free they should have priority over those of us who have paid a lot of money to be allowed to do it.  Sorry I can't agree with that.

Nope, never said that either. What I said (read it!) was that the reason for your volocky dislike seemed to be that you thought your fun should take priority over theirs, which is exactly what you just confirmed 🙂

 

I was very careful not to say who should win in this particular battle of wills... 😉

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

46 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Yes, it's part of what I do for a living - next question? 

 

You are being ridiculous over heritage railways - the reason there are so few accidents is because the volunteers follow their brief to the letter, without exception - something that you claim isn't possible with canal volunteers. If canal volunteers can stick to their brief using chainsaws (and they do) why not when being volunteer lock keepers?

 

 

So if you understand risk, why not answer the question -- how many recent canal accidents/deaths have been caused by volockies, which was the purported lack-of-training threat that you were dangling? Is the answer by any chance none?

 

You're the one who brought heritage railways into the discussion not me, which -- as you say -- are a completely different case to volockies, so I'm not sure why you did that except to divert the discussion.

 

You should be able to work out the answer to your second question, which is human nature. They always stick to the brief when using chainsaws (assuming they're qualified to do this, which I guess many are not) because not doing so risks them chopping their own leg off. They don't always stick to the brief when doing locks (or some don't) because they want to have fun by doing them (and maybe helping people, being altruistic), and many boaters are fine with this -- even if you're not.

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Iain_S said:

Often the "ask" is non-verbal: volocky standing by a paddle and looking quizzically at the steerer. Never found that a problem, and it's a lot more efficient than walking the length of the lock to have a conversation before assisting.

 

Standing by the paddle is starting out with the premis that assistance is required and wanted  - the default setting. Whereas in fact the default setting is, according to the training, to only assist if assitance is requested. The volockies at Stenson being a good example. Having been informed that we preferred to operate the lock ourselves, 2 of them stood close by watching carefully (well, glaring really) and offering unwanted advice such as "there's no point in pushing on the balance beam until the level in the lock reaches that little mark". The mark of course being inside the lock and so unrelated to whether the lock was ready or not. He got halfway through that sentence when the gate started to open, because the level outside the lock was down a bit. And the other chap was keen to inform me that the boat moved forward a bit because I had opened the paddle too much. I'd never have guessed! This is what I find really annoying, micromanaging and back seat driving even when they don't actually lay hands on the lock mechanisms. They just can't resist it!

 

Meanwhile the third chap was busy chatting to the gongoozlers and being all friendly. Which is what they should all be doing of course, not closely studying what I was doing in the hope of noticing something sub-optimal in their very limited experience.

 

You were a policeman. Everyone knows that policemen are essential and at times very welcome. But when a police car is following you on the road, it makes you feel uncomfortable, slightly nervous and thus more likely to fulfil the perceived expectation of making a mistake. So yes volockies may be necessary at times, but I don't want to feel that they are the canal police. And in fact this specific point is made in their training, except that half of them were asleep at the time. Well it was after lunch I suppose and they need their afternoon nap.

[Stroudwater1]

 

24 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Yes, it's part of what I do for a living - next question? 

 

You are being ridiculous over heritage railways - the reason there are so few accidents is because the volunteers follow their brief to the letter, without exception - something that you claim isn't possible with canal volunteers. If canal volunteers can stick to their brief using chainsaws (and they do) why not when being volunteer lock keepers?

 

 

 

Sorry but TBF wasnt it a volunteer driver that caused all the trouble around 7 years ago causing much problem with little steam locomotives able to travel on the main line for a while? It looks like they didnt follow the brief?

 

https://app.croneri.co.uk/feature-articles/200000-fine-steam-train-near-miss  

[Midnight]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

.... The volockies at Stenson being a good example. ...

 

 

When we came up Stenson this trip some  bloke jumped out of thin air wielding a windlass and proceeded to manage our ascent. I asked if he was a vollie but he said "no I just help them". To be fair he seemed to know what he was doing so I allowed him to proceed.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Midnight said:

When we came up Stenson this trip some  bloke jumped out of thin air wielding a windlass and proceeded to manage our ascent. I asked if he was a vollie but he said "no I just help them". To be fair he seemed to know what he was doing so I allowed him to proceed.

Yes so this is another problem, it is sometimes not clear whether someone wearing a blue shirt and a lifejacket is an official volunteer or an imposter. A few years ago on the L&L the officious volunteer at some minor staircase had his nephew working the paddles. Nephew of course not being in any way trained or endorsed by CRT. We would have complained to CRT but when the actual proper lock keeper turned up he was such a good bloke that we didn't like to drop him in the shit by complaining about his volunteer's nephew.

[Rob-M]

31 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Fradley were the ones in mind I don't remember if there was anybody at stone.

I don't think I have ever been asked at Fradley, I go through Shade House, Middle and Junction locks around 10+ times a year.  I try to time it now so they are at lunch so I don't have to request they don't help, if there are volockies I tend to step off and get to the bottom gate before they can so I get my windlass on first but coming up I just resigned myself to they will work the lock whether I want it or not.

[Rob-M]

When we are out on the working boats with our blue shirts and lifejackets on we do often find a number of boaters expect us to work the locks for them as they assume we are volunteer lock keepers.

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

When we are out on the working boats with our blue shirts and lifejackets on we do often find a number of boaters expect us to work the locks for them as they assume we are volunteer lock keepers.

 We need to purge the lazies. I've sent their details to Putin so hopefully they will shortly receive call-up papers and be sent off to Ukraine.

Edited September 23, 2022 by nicknorman

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

When we are out on the working boats with our blue shirts and lifejackets on we do often find a number of boaters expect us to work the locks for them as they assume we are volunteer lock keepers.

Of course it depends why they "expect" this...

 

Is it because they're fat lazy gits who don't want to lift a finger?

 

Or is it that they've got so used to dictatorial volockies leaping in and doing the locks for them -- whether they like it or not -- that they assume its safer to not make a fuss and sit and let them get on with it? 😉

Edited September 23, 2022 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

14 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I don't think I have ever been asked at Fradley, I go through Shade House, Middle and Junction locks around 10+ times a year.  I try to time it now so they are at lunch so I don't have to request they don't help, if there are volockies I tend to step off and get to the bottom gate before they can so I get my windlass on first but coming up I just resigned myself to they will work the lock whether I want it or not.

Fradley they do tend to just get on with it, though they did wait for my thumbs up before winding the paddles up. I think because there's usually a queue of boats filtering through from two directions and only room for one on the lock landing with a stack of moored boats behind, they tend to be proactive to keep things moving. I can never tell if people are waiting to go through or permanently tied up. They did seem competent and friendly.

It's one of those busy places where, maybe, they have a role to play as they do at Grindley?

[ditchcrawler]

Where can I get help and counselling? I have just given IanD a greeny 🤢

[Midnight]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Where can I get help and counselling? I have just given IanD a greeny 🤢

Put more water in it next time 😆

[Jerra]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Nope, never said that either. What I said (read it!) was that the reason for your volocky dislike seemed to be that you thought your fun should take priority over theirs, which is exactly what you just confirmed 🙂

 

I was very careful not to say who should win in this particular battle of wills... 😉

Of course it should I have paid a lot of money for the privilege of using locks.   If you pay for something are you happy that  somebody who hasn't prevents you from getting that enjoyment.   I don't know your other interests but lets take an example, you pay for a music event, when you get to the door they sorry we are full.  Why you ask, well we let in some people who hadn't paid was the reply.   Would you walk away smiling?

[Arthur Marshall]

27 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Of course it should I have paid a lot of money for the privilege of using locks.   If you pay for something are you happy that  somebody who hasn't prevents you from getting that enjoyment.   I don't know your other interests but lets take an example, you pay for a music event, when you get to the door they sorry we are full.  Why you ask, well we let in some people who hadn't paid was the reply.   Would you walk away smiling?

But you haven't paid to use locks. They're just a very small fraction of it  rarely taking up an hour or so of a boating day at most, often much less. And on the Weaver or the Ashby you don't get to play with them at all, so presumably you hate the things. You've paid to have a boat on the water, and that's it. If you just want to go up and down a flight all day, I think you've rather missed the point.

[Jerra]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

But you haven't paid to use locks. They're just a very small fraction of it  rarely taking up an hour or so of a boating day at most, often much less. And on the Weaver or the Ashby you don't get to play with them at all, so presumably you hate the things. You've paid to have a boat on the water, and that's it. If you just want to go up and down a flight all day, I think you've rather missed the point.

I have paid to use the system, locks are part of the system.   The system where I choose to boat includes locks I can work.  I admit using locks is a small part of the boating day but it is the bit I enjoy the most.  If we went like Scotland and we couldn't operate locks ourselves I wouldn't be boating on canals.

 

I have never suggested I want to go up and down a flight all day.   However as using locks is my main enjoyment and is as you say not a major part of the day it is to me more important that I get to work the lock.   

 

As I said I have paid to use the system and locks are an integral part of the system, if there were an extra charge per lock I wouldn't be on the canals.

 

I don't see how anybody can find a problem with volunteers doing what they are supposed to, simply ask and boaters who enjoy locks being allowed to enjoy them.  I suspect the volunteers would get to help the majority so allowing those of us who enjoy locks to get on ourselves really shouldn't be a problem for them.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Where can I get help and counselling? I have just given IanD a greeny 🤢

Thunderboat? 😉

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Jerra said:

I have paid to use the system, locks are part of the system.   The system where I choose to boat includes locks I can work.  I admit using locks is a small part of the boating day but it is the bit I enjoy the most.  If we went like Scotland and we couldn't operate locks ourselves I wouldn't be boating on canals.

 

I have never suggested I want to go up and down a flight all day.   However as using locks is my main enjoyment and is as you say not a major part of the day it is to me more important that I get to work the lock.   

 

As I said I have paid to use the system and locks are an integral part of the system, if there were an extra charge per lock I wouldn't be on the canals.

 

I don't see how anybody can find a problem with volunteers doing what they are supposed to, simply ask and boaters who enjoy locks being allowed to enjoy them.  I suspect the volunteers would get to help the majority so allowing those of us who enjoy locks to get on ourselves really shouldn't be a problem for them.

You're quite right, of course. They are supposed to ask. If they don't, all you can do is report it and ask that they be retrained. If you're crewed, your crew should tell them. If singlehanded, like me, it's easy enough going down because you can tell them at the top, but the only thing you can do going up is shout at them to wait while you come up the ladder. Which, as you say, is not satisfactory as it makes you look like the nowty one. You've still got the problem of them peering at you while you work it.

I remember getting lectured about how I was doing it all wrong by one who had watched me (from the top, with a mug in his paw) working up Bosley with my wife, she walking on setting the next lock, me closing the gates as I exited. When I asked if he had a boat (no) and pointed out I'd had mine twenty odd years he went back in the shed and sulked. If the wife hadn't been there giggling I'd have been less restrained. So I do take your point. But there aren't that many of them.

[MtB]

5 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Where can I get help and counselling? I have just given IanD a greeny 🤢

 

We all make mistakes, it's only human...

 

[cuthound]

On 22/09/2022 at 19:08, ditchcrawler said:

Like Scotland? Also something which was suggested a few years ago on the Grand Union due to the gate paddles flooding a boat

 

Sadly the unprotected gate paddles are but a distant memory now. 

 

I don't recall seeing one since maybe 1990.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

Sadly the unprotected gate paddles are but a distant memory now. 

 

I don't recall seeing one since maybe 1990.

Is it that long ago? Its getting to the stage where I remember things like that but where we moored last week is a haze