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Volockies at Grindley Brook


AndrewIC

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1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Well that is the main reason why we decided to base our boat in Englandshire even though we live in Aberdeen. We quite enjoyed hiring on the F&C for a short break, but having to operate to a schedule to get through locks and bridges was far too constraining and stressful for prolonged boating. 

I quite agree. It was something which was imposed on us when the Lowland canals reopened and although several of us fought it for years we had no chance of winning . The problem is that the locks only have fierce gate paddles and with some of the hire boats being the maximum length for the locks the hire boat fleet manager  was concerned about their boats being flooded and sinking. 

We had no chance fighting against  the money the hire fleet obviously put into Scottish Canals coffers.

I gave up the fight and now seldom boat in Scotland 

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15 minutes ago, Chris John said:

Are you for real. Have you ever been to Hillmorton locks?

I guess as long as you’re happy slating people you carry on!

 

O don't worry, I will.

 

Having been within seconds of having my boat crushed by a volunteer operating the big hydraulic river locks, I have nothing but contempt for the way C&RT actually instruct and manage these volunteers, and, their total lack of admission of liability when there failings are called to account.

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2 hours ago, haggis said:

I was just wondering how some boaters would get on in Scotland where boaters are not allowed to work the locks. Not only that but they have to book ahead and are given a time to be at the start of the flight. I don't think many of the volunteer lock keepers are boaters or even have much experience of boating but from all reports they are well received by boaters. Even boaters who usually boat in Englandshire and hire a boat up here to experience the Lowland canals 

 

Which is why I have never boated in Scotland.

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2 minutes ago, haggis said:

I quite agree. It was something which was imposed on us when the Lowland canals reopened and although several of us fought it for years we had no chance of winning . The problem is that the locks only have fierce gate paddles and with some of the hire boats being the maximum length for the locks the hire boat fleet manager  was concerned about their boats being flooded and sinking. 

We had no chance fighting against  the money the hire fleet obviously put into Scottish Canals coffers.

I gave up the fight and now seldom boat in Scotland 

So now some just enjoy trying to drowned the crew member in the welldeck as they hold onto the bow rope

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6 hours ago, IanD said:

On the second bit, perhaps there are far more hire and novice boaters on the canals nowadays than there were in the 70s, so help from volockys is a lot more useful than then?

 

(let me check -- oh yes, that's what the facts say...)

What is your source for this statement?

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7 hours ago, David Mack said:

What is your source for this statement?

My source is the the number of boaters on the canals, the number of hire boats, and the annual number of boating holidays taken. All are considerably higher than in the 1970s, I'm sure there are figures from CART out there somewhere, and I would have thought this would also be blindingly obvious to anyone who was boating then and now, including me.

 

If the number of boaters is increasing year by year then the number of novice boaters must also be increasing.

 

Note that I didn't go and dig out any numbers, which is why I said "perhaps" 😉

Edited by IanD
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1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Err no, that is entirely illogical.

Where else do the extra boaters come from then?

 

You're also ignoring the huge number of people who have moved onto the canals in recent years as a cheap way of life, many of who have never been on a boat before.

Edited by IanD
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10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Where else do the extra boaters come from then?

 

You're also ignoring the huge number of people who have moved onto the canals in recent years as a cheap way of life, many of who have never been on a boat before.


the extra boaters come from novices. The novices (clue is in the word) are no longer novices a little while later. Or maybe you consider yourself a novice since you weren’t around when the canals were built? In other words if the if a fixed number of novices over time, the number of boaters increases, unless the number leaving /dying matches the number of novices, and that isn’t the case.

Edited by nicknorman
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57 minutes ago, IanD said:

Note that I didn't go and dig out any numbers, which is why I said "perhaps" 😉

You also said "(let me check -- oh yes, that's what the facts say...)".

 

But you haven't checked the facts. So it's just a wild assumption on your part that the numbers support your position.

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23 minutes ago, David Mack said:

You also said "(let me check -- oh yes, that's what the facts say...)".

 

But you haven't checked the facts. So it's just a wild assumption on your part that the numbers support your position.

Look, I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are a lot more boats around now than in the 70s, since we were both on the canals then and now (at least, I was), and that numbers have increases significantly in the past ten years or so -- I can count the boats moored near n=me as well as you can.

 

So if you're claiming this hasn't happened against all the evidence, maybe you're the one who should provide facts to back this up?

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Just now, IanD said:

Look, I'm sure you know as well as I do that there are a lot more boats around now than in the 70s, since we were both on the canals then and now (at least, I was), and that numbers have increases significantly in the past ten years or so -- I can count the boats moored near n=me as well as you can.

 

So if you're claiming this hasn't happened against all the evidence, maybe you're the one who should provide facts to back this up?

But I'm not convinced there are more hire boats about. There used to be loads of hire companies that have long since gone, and both Blakes and Hoseasons produced bulky catalogues of all the hire boats they were booking agents for.

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1 hour ago, nicknorman said:


the extra boaters come from novices. The novices (clue is in the word) are no longer novices a little while later. Or maybe you consider yourself a novice since you weren’t around when the canals were built? In other words if the if a fixed number of novices over time, the number of boaters increases, unless the number leaving /dying matches the number of novices, and that isn’t the case.

<sigh> if more people move onto the canals over a few years (which has clearly happened, see CART statistics about number of licenses) then they are by definition novices -- and especially if they move very little where there are few or no locks (which seems to be where most of them moor) then they're certainly novices regarding lock operation, even after a few years.

 

I've met quite a few boaters at locks all over the system in the last few years who haven't had a clue about how they work or how to operate them correctly or safely. If you haven't, I don't know where you've been boating... 😉

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Just now, David Mack said:

But I'm not convinced there are more hire boats about. There used to be loads of hire companies that have long since gone, and both Blakes and Hoseasons produced bulky catalogues of all the hire boats they were booking agents for.

 

A lot of the smaller boat hire companies were bought out by now-bigger ones like ABC. Bulky paper catalogues have disappeared from the world today with the advent of online marketing.

 

From my observations, there certainly didn't use to be anything like the queues for locks then that there are nowadays, so the extra boats must have come from *somewhere" -- and canal holidays are reported to be more popular now than they were then (when they were a bit of a novelty), partly driven by increasingly well-equipped boats. I'll go and try and find some historical figures for hire boat numbers, maybe you could do the same? 😉

 

 

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Number of boats licensed has gone from circa 25,000 in 2000 to circa 35000 now - hire boat numbers have remained steady, down a bit then up a bit, but increased fleet utilisation plus increased short breaks have put the number of trips up - in particular hire boats often make the same shorter journey four times in a week when they used to do a longer one twice (out and back) or once (circle) with the effect that locks nearer hire bases see more use.

 

There has also been a concentration of boats on the interlocking rings in the midlands, mainly to make repeat custom easier

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A lot of this is pure diversion from the original subject of volockies...

 

I think Arthur hit the nail on the head when he described why volockies do what they do -- they're there because they probably love the canals (unlike many posters on CWDF) and want to do something involved with them (including helping at locks), and are willing to do this for nothing, including some of the less pleasant things like rubbish clearing, both from the towpath and canal.

 

Magpie Patrick seems to think this is all terribly inefficient and they should behave like good little worker bees, buzzing around and doing exactly what boaters want, not some of what they want like enjoying themselves. Which might work if they were paid (because employees do stuff they don't want to do in return for a wage and having a job), but volunteers are free to just walk away and not look back.

 

Others resent them sticking their noses in where they're not wanted or being "condescending or rude", ignoring the fact that people in all walks of life do exactly the same and keep their jobs -- which they're paid for, not doing for free.

 

And as for comments like those from Nick, words fail me -- I'll put one of his quotes together with some of similar sentiments...

 

"Only trouble is that at least 50% of volunteers are miserable old grey bearded taciturn types with no social skills and barely the power of speech"

"Dirty thieving gyppoes, half of them would steal your car as soon as look at you"

"Most black kids are only interested in smoking dope and stabbing each other"

 

Volockies aren't by any means perfect, but the canals would be a poorer place without them -- literally, if CART had to pay employees to do what they do...

 

4 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

Number of boats licensed has gone from circa 25,000 in 2000 to circa 35000 now - hire boat numbers have remained steady, down a bit then up a bit, but increased fleet utilisation plus increased short breaks have put the number of trips up - in particular hire boats often make the same shorter journey four times in a week when they used to do a longer one twice (out and back) or once (circle) with the effect that locks nearer hire bases see more use.

 

There has also been a concentration of boats on the interlocking rings in the midlands, mainly to make repeat custom easier

Thank you for providing some numbers. Do you have any figures (licenses and hire boats) going further back, for example to the 1970s?

 

(and more shorter hire boat trips does by definition mean more hirers, and more of them will probably be new to the canals)

 

Certainly from my recollection, there were fewer hire boats back then, going on a canal holiday was seen as a bit weird rather than the commonplace thing it is today.

Edited by IanD
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There are a lot of boats in marinas and on moorings like mine that are rarely seen to move. I reckon those owners are still novices in most senses of the word on the rare occasion they go off for a few days. I met one liveaboard on the upper Macc a few years ago who had been living on for twenty years and had never done a lock.

How much difference that makes I dunno. Once you've done one lock, been shouted at for driving on the left and moored up once, what's left to learn? It's not exactly rocket science. Most of the idiot stuff is due to people being deliberately unaware of their surroundings, selfishness and the odd rampant ego, none of which change with experience except the last, which gets worse.

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19 minutes ago, IanD said:

and canal holidays are reported to be more popular now than they were then

Reported where? I recall reading in various places that hire boating is nowhere near as popular now as it was back in the 70s - cheap air travel has caused that.

My experience is not that queues have increased particularly. But one factor which could have caused more queuing is that boats have got longer. Back in the 70s there were far more grp and wooden cruisers, and lots of narrow boats in the 30-45 foot range, and it was common to get two or sometimes three boats in a narrow lock. Now it is a rare occurence.  But even these days I don't often share wide locks, suggesting that the wide canals aren't that busy.

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13 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

There are a lot of boats in marinas and on moorings like mine that are rarely seen to move. I reckon those owners are still novices in most senses of the word on the rare occasion they go off for a few days. I met one liveaboard on the upper Macc a few years ago who had been living on for twenty years and had never done a lock.

How much difference that makes I dunno. Once you've done one lock, been shouted at for driving on the left and moored up once, what's left to learn? It's not exactly rocket science. Most of the idiot stuff is due to people being deliberately unaware of their surroundings, selfishness and the odd rampant ego, none of which change with experience except the last, which gets worse.

 

Having done one lock successfully doesn't mean you won't get the boat hung up on the cill at the next one, or hang the boat up on a tied rope, or flood the foredeck by opening gate paddles too early, or waste lots of water by not closing paddles (sometimes at both ends at the same time), or lots of other things that you learn from either being educated about locks or making mistakes in them. Many times I've seen things like this being done (or boats have sunk in locks) it wasn't the first lock they'd done or even one of the first few, it was a mistake sometimes driven by ignorance ("do I just open the doors?") or complacency ("I know what I'm doing") or inattention (looking at phone instead of watching boat/lock) -- and nobody is guilt-free here, even experienced boaters still make mistakes sometimes.

 

Of course volockies aren't a complete solution to numpty cock-ups, but helpful ones must reduce the chances of them -- always assuming they know what they're doing, which not all do... 😉

 

And for people who find (some) locks hard work, some assistance can be welcome 🙂

5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Reported where? I recall reading in various places that hire boating is nowhere near as popular now as it was back in the 70s - cheap air travel has caused that.

My experience is not that queues have increased particularly. But one factor which could have caused more queuing is that boats have got longer. Back in the 70s there were far more grp and wooden cruisers, and lots of narrow boats in the 30-45 foot range, and it was common to get two or sometimes three boats in a narrow lock. Now it is a rare occurence.  But even these days I don't often share wide locks, suggesting that the wide canals aren't that busy.

 

My suggestion came from an article about canal boating -- and no I can't remember where this was and I'm not going to spend ages looking for it.

 

This argument would be settled if somebody (Magpie Patrick?) has some actual numbers one way or the other, until then it's just a difference of opinion -- and we all know about opinions, don't we? 😉

Edited by IanD
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12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

O don't worry, I will.

 

Having been within seconds of having my boat crushed by a volunteer operating the big hydraulic river locks, I have nothing but contempt for the way C&RT actually instruct and manage these volunteers, and, their total lack of admission of liability when there failings are called to account.

Yes because all volunteers are the same aren’t they? 
 

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4 minutes ago, Chris John said:

Yes because all volunteers are the same aren’t they? 
 

You really dont add anything to the forum with your constant aggressive opposite stance to anything CRT-wise discussed.

Alan is referring to the ongoing CRT management failure of the Volockies, not the lockies themselves.

I stick by my previous summing up of your character.

Edited by matty40s
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29 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

And as for comments like those from Nick, words fail me -- I'll put one of his quotes together with some of similar sentiments...

 

"Only trouble is that at least 50% of volunteers are miserable old grey bearded taciturn types with no social skills and barely the power of speech"

"Dirty thieving gyppoes, half of them would steal your car as soon as look at you"

"Most black kids are only interested in smoking dope and stabbing each other"

 

Volockies aren't by any means perfect, but the canals would be a poorer place without them -- literally, if CART had to pay employees to do what they do...

 


 

yea but the first one is factually correct, the other two aren’t.

 

And CRT never did and would not have to pay employees to do what volunteers do, because they are entirely superfluous (save those in a role of organising traffic at long staircase flights).

Edited by nicknorman
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39 minutes ago, matty40s said:

You really dont add anything to the forum with your constant aggressive opposite stance to anything CRT-wise discussed.

I stick by my previous summing up of your character.

 

He's just pointing out that one bad apple does not necessarily make a rotten barrel (yes, I know...). Mistakes happen everywhere, nobody is perfect.

 

What Alan is saying is equivalent to "I was fitted up by one corrupt policeman, so we should disband the entire police force"...

 

38 minutes ago, nicknorman said:


 

yea but the fist one is factually correct, the other two aren’t.

 

And CRT never did and would not have to pay employees to do what volunteers do, because they are entirely superfluous (save those in a role of organising traffic at long staircase flights).

 

So all the debris/rubbish clearing and painting and gear greasing and helping (maybe older or less strong) people through heavy locks are superfluous then?

 

Who would do this if the volockies didn't?

Edited by IanD
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5 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

He's just pointing out that one bad apple does not necessarily make a rotten barrel (yes, I know...). Mistakes happen everywhere, nobody is perfect.

 

 

So all the debris/rubbish clearing and painting and gear greasing and helping (maybe older or less strong) people through heavy locks are superfluous then?

 

Who would do this if the volockies didn't?

Volunteers could do it. Actually this is one of the fundamental problems,  calling them Lock Keepers. Which immediately gives the impression that it is THEIR lock. Not surprisingly this translates into the behaviour of some of them. “This is MY lock, you irritating boater”. Lock Assistants would have been so much better. After all, the professional Lock Keepers of old didn’t work the locks for boaters, they just maintained them (except large river locks etc)

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