An extra charge for the top end of the Llangollen?

[David Mack]

"Everyone who overnights in Wales, whether it be in a luxury hotel, a cosy holiday cottage or the most basic campsite, may face a “visitor levy” under a hugely controversial Welsh government scheme.

The Labour-led government has launched a consultation on the proposal that could result in almost all visitors – including Welsh residents staying away from home – being taxed for their stays."

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/20/wales-may-impose-visitor-levy-on-overnight-guests

 

But how would they implement it for visiting canal boats?

[IanM]

I imagine it's actually just taxed on hospitality accommodation or places that already charge.  A bit like the tourist tax in Amsterdam, it's added to your hotel/AirBnB/wherever bill.

 

If places charge for overnight mooring, then you get tax added to the fee.  

[Midnight]

Political stupidity -  estimated income from tourism to Wales £6 billion

[Jen-in-Wellies]

A consultation. Perhaps put out so the scheme they really want will seem less bad in comparison. Similar to the leaks in the weeks before a Westminster budget.

[Arthur Marshall]

I suspect it's at least partly a reaction to the Airbnb explosion and maybe a way to control it a bit.

[robtheplod]

Even taxing Welsh citizens staying up the road.... odd policy?

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, IanM said:

 

 

If places charge for overnight mooring, then you get tax added to the fee.  

That will be Llangollen then

[Tony1]

 

So in the unlikely event that they tried to apply a potential new tax to boaters staying overnight in Wales, how would it work? 

For example, the Llangollen briefly enters Wales for a mile or two around Bettisfield, and then not again until Chirk aqueduct. 

So if I was to overnight near Bettisfield, how would anyone from officialdom know (unless maybe CRTs spotters tell them)?

Will there be someone stationed at Chirk taking boat numbers and dates when the boats move in and out of Wales, and then the authorities will send on a bill?

Would they add a levy onto the existing mooring charges around Llangollen, or send traffic warden types around every morning to check on who was there? 

Its difficult to see how it could be operated in a way that would be cost effective. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Tony1

[john6767]

47 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

So in the unlikely event that they tried to apply a potential new tax to boaters staying overnight in Wales, how would it work? 

For example, the Llangollen briefly enters Wales for a mile or two around Bettisfield, and then not again until Chirk aqueduct. 

So if I was to overnight near Bettisfield, how would anyone from officialdom know (unless maybe CRTs spotters tell them)?

Will there be someone stationed at Chirk taking boat numbers and dates when the boats move in and out of Wales, and then the authorities will send on a bill?

Would they add a levy onto the existing mooring charges around Llangollen, or send traffic warden types around every morning to check on who was there? 

Its difficult to see how it could be operated in a way that would be cost effective. 

 

 

I think all this was being said that the £6 per night charge for mooring in Llangollen would possibly attract this "tourist tax" and would therefore go up. 

 

The impact of that would really depend on how it is levied; if it is a percentage of the charge then its likely to be peanuts on a £6 charge, but is the levy is a fixed charge per person per night is could be significant and much more than the mooring charge.

[Quattrodave]

Hmmm wouldn't it all depend how it's  worded.  If its a tax when 'staying away from home' the surely your narrowboat is your home and your in your home and not away from it....?!

[Momac]

A tourist tax is not a new idea.

As an example we chartered a yacht in 2018 in Greece but stayed the first night in hotel. The tourist tax, which as a small sum per room, for that night was collected by the hotel.  Google says its currently  from 4 Euros per night but the charge depends , in Greece , on the star rating of the hotel.

We were not asked for tax on the yacht when staying at various harbours during the week , one of which made a small charge for an overnight stay.

 

Other countries make similar charges but are probably included in rate you pay for the accommodation. 

 

I expect  if you visited Wales and stayed with friends at their home , for example ,  or in your own boat the tax would not apply unless you were paying for accommodation.

 

https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/01/18/tourist-taxes-all-of-the-countries-you-will-have-to-pay-to-enter-in-2022#:~:text=Greece,help cut the country's debt.

 

[Tonka]

Apparently it may be dependent on the council to apply it. Not all councils will apply it. Is the Llangollen bit all under Wrexham Council?

[tree monkey]

7 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Apparently it may be dependent on the council to apply it. Not all councils will apply it. Is the Llangollen bit all under Wrexham Council?

Yes, llan is in Wrexham 

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Yes, llan is in Wrexham 

Yes but is the Bettisfield bit also in.

[tree monkey]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

Yes but is the Bettisfield bit also in.

That's true

[IanD]

Tourist taxes of a few EUR/USD/UKP/whatever per night are common in many places in the world to bring in extra revenue to help pay for facilities that tourists use (including general strain on infrastructure), and tourism doesn't collapse as a result because the tourist tax is tiny compared to the other costs of being a tourist.

 

Why would Wales be any different?

[john6767]

I have skimmed through the consultation document.  Here are a few observations.

 

.  Boats (narrow boats) are specifically called out in examples alongside the charge for land used to pitch a tent or caravan etc.  So it seems the intent is that it would apply to a visitor mooring charge

.  Three primary options on how to structure the levy

     . A charge per night for the accommodation (eg £1 per night irrespective of accommodation cost).

     . A charge per person per night (eg £1 per person per nights stay irrespective or accommodation cost).

     . A percentage of the accommodation cost (eg 1% of the accommodation cost).

     . A blended model of the above.

.  They are keen to have is consistent across all areas of Wales but would be administered by the local authority.

.  Where charges are made as part on the accommodation cost for items other than the accommodation, that element would not be taxed in the case of a percentage charge, eg B&B the cost of the breakfast would be separated from the cost of the bed and the levy only charged on the bed part.  
 

In terms on the charge at Llangollen this raises an interesting point, and CRT are perhaps going to have to change things a bit.  If is often said that the £6 charge is for the “free” electricity, if that is the case there in no accommodation cost and no levy on a percentage basis.

 

In terms of a marina offering visitor moorings (is it just Chirk marina that is in Wales?), you would assume they will need to charge the levy, but how do you distinguish that from a permanent mooring, eg 365 days, if you are allowed to stay on the boat presumably the levy applies.  There is however the proposal of a upper length of stay to which the levy would apply (eg 7 consequent days).  How that would be implemented on the permanent mooring is questionable, would each visit to the boat be a separate stay, eg every weekend you stay Saturday night on the boat, would you need to pay the levy each time you stay, that would seem to be the objective of the levy.

 

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, john6767 said:

 

In terms on the charge at Llangollen this raises an interesting point, and CRT are perhaps going to have to change things a bit.  If is often said that the £6 charge is for the “free” electricity, if that is the case there in no accommodation cost and no levy on a percentage basis.

 

 

Expensive electricity

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Expensive electricity

And it pays for the cost of installing and maintaining the charging points and cabling along the towpath and in the basin, which would not be cheap... 😉

[David Mack]

37 minutes ago, john6767 said:

Boats (narrow boats) are specifically called out in examples alongside the charge for land used to pitch a tent or caravan etc.  So it seems the intent is that it would apply to a visitor mooring charge

Which could cover mooring at a designated location such as Llangollen, where moorings are already charged for. But how does it cover mooring at a minor visitor mooring, or just tieing up to the towpath in the middle of nowhere?

 

[IanD]

Just now, David Mack said:

Which could cover mooring at a designated location such as Llangollen, where moorings are already charged for. But how does it cover mooring at a minor visitor mooring, or just tieing up to the towpath in the middle of nowhere?

 

It wouldn't, because there's no way of paying it or enforcing it.

 

A tourist tax can only be applied if there's a transaction involved to which it can be added (e.g. a hotel room or AirBnB, or a Llangollen mooring).

 

As usual people are nit-picking and objecting to the details of implementation, when the elephant in the room is whether such a tax is a good idea or not. Many places worldwide which impose such a tax have found it's an effective way of raising some extra local revenue to pay for the depredations of tourism.

[Jerra]

17 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I suspect it's at least partly a reaction to the Airbnb explosion and maybe a way to control it a bit.

I would tend to agree many Airbnb properties round here "fly under the radar" and don't pay business rates etc.

[john6767]

8 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Which could cover mooring at a designated location such as Llangollen, where moorings are already charged for. But how does it cover mooring at a minor visitor mooring, or just tieing up to the towpath in the middle of nowhere?

 

I can’t see the intention to do that, in the same way as if you stay with family/friends in Wales there will be no levy.

41 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Expensive electricity

Yes, but there is the infrastructure cost to pay for as well.  But I thought it was basically a fudge to get over the fact that CRT don’t have the legal power to charge except where additional facilities (in this case electricity) are being provided.  If that it the case the levy may require the situation to be clarified.

 

In the main personally I am not against the idea of the levy, you would expect in the majority of the cases this will be a relatively small token charge that no one is going to case about.  There are certainly locations in the US where I have seen a few dollars a night added to a hotel bill as a local tax so it’s not new in a global market sense.  The interesting bit is how this will apply to boating, given they have declared the intent to charge boats.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, john6767 said:

I can’t see the intention to do that, in the same way as if you stay with family/friends in Wales there will be no levy.

Yes, but there is the infrastructure cost to pay for as well.  But I thought it was basically a fudge to get over the fact that CRT don’t have the legal power to charge except where additional facilities (in this case electricity) are being provided.  If that it the case the levy may require the situation to be clarified.

 

In the main personally I am not against the idea of the levy, you would expect in the majority of the cases this will be a relatively small token charge that no one is going to case about.  There are certainly locations in the US where I have seen a few dollars a night added to a hotel bill as a local tax so it’s not new in a global market sense.  The interesting bit is how this will apply to boating, given they have declared the intent to charge boats.

 

Every single US hotel I've ever stayed in, in many different places -- and not just a tourist tax, see attached bill where the "add-on" local taxes are about 15% of the room charge...

[Jerra]

With around 10,000,000 visitors to alone Conwy per year a pound per person per night all over wales would bring in quite a lot of money.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Jerra