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Beta Marine engine id


Morris

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Hi all,

I am looking to purchase my first narrowboat and am interested in a 2005 boat fitted with a Beta Marine engine. 

 

My understanding so far from reading on here is that there were issues with the 43hp engine (corrected in 2006?) as a result of the crankshaft pulley being fitted with a woodruff key which can wear due to vibrations/oscillations when charging batteries with the engine at low revs. I do not like the sound of the potential for catastrophic failure and the need for a new crankshaft!

 

Can anyone advise on how to identify the engines that should be avoided please?

 

Also is this only an issue on the 43hp engine?

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Ours is 2010 and the end of the crank looks like this, with the splined bit sticking out. We have a travelpower so an extra pulley, engines without the travelpower pulley are likely to have more protrusion of the splined end. As I understand it, earlier engines had this bit cut off. Of course the bit sticking out doesn’t actually do anything but I did hear a rumour that Beta created some sort of fitting that went over the splines and into the inside of the pulley, to reduce pulley “wobble” but as you can see, we don’t have it and when I phoned Beta I didn’t get a straight answer.

 

That said we have about 4000 hrs on the engine and no problem so far, but I try to avoid heavy loads on the alternator or travelpower at low rpm. Aim for 1200+ if there is a heavy load on like the tumble drier. Also I tend to use the travelpower limited to about 1kw, another 1kw or so from the alternator via the Combi power support mode when we have a long term appliance on like the 2kw tumble drier, in order to even out the load a bit (belt angles for travelpower and alternator are around 120degrees apart). So far so good…

 

CD3241D9-C03F-46EC-A91D-8767496C251C.jpeg.de7439ff96061a1056dd04c746090c5a.jpeg

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In my view you should never charge batteries at low engine speed unless you are cruising or after the batteries are well charged. (for LA batteries which most boats use). If stationary set the revs to those at which the charging current is the highest. As the batteries charge the current will fall so reduce the revs to maintain the highest current, but it will be gradually getting lower. Eventually you will be on tickover but at a very light alternator load. When cruising you can't do this, but cruising will load the diesel engine to a degree and the above procedure will also load the engine as much as you can while charging when tied up.

 

Anyway, I thought it was mainly the Travelpower equipped Betas that suffered the problem you describe.

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As Nick Norman says, check the front pulley. If it is the splined type then no worries 

 

My understanding that the Woodruff key type only gave problems when the 240 volt Travel Power alternator was fitted, as it required an extra pulley in addition to those for the starter and domestic battery alternators.

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20 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

In my view you should never charge batteries at low engine speed unless you are cruising or after the batteries are well charged. (for LA batteries which most boats use). If stationary set the revs to those at which the charging current is the highest. As the batteries charge the current will fall so reduce the revs to maintain the highest current, but it will be gradually getting lower. Eventually you will be on tickover but at a very light alternator load. When cruising you can't do this, but cruising will load the diesel engine to a degree and the above procedure will also load the engine as much as you can while charging when tied up.

 

Anyway, I thought it was mainly the Travelpower equipped Betas that suffered the problem you describe.

The thing with modern Betas is that the pulley ratio means that nearly full output can be obtained at idle. I think maybe 140A at idle (850rpm) and the other 35A by about 950-1000 rpm. So if charging a typical LA battery bank then after the first couple of minutes, the charge current is the same at idle as it is at higher rpm. However this does put quite a big load on the belt and of course the torque oscillations and belt loads are at a maximum, cooling fan speed at a minimum, therefore running the engine a bit faster, say 1200, is much kinder to the hardware even if the charge current is no higher.

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It is correct that some with a travel pack driven off the front pulley can end up with a loose pulley and damage to the key way resulting in a new pulley and crankshaft being needed. The spline shaft  at the front is where  a tractors accessories would be driven from. Beta sometimes cuts the splined shaft off for easy access to tighten the pulley nut which is in the maintenance guide to be check  for tightness. Where my engine is fitted checking the tightness would be so difficult as up against a bulk head. I had so much trouble with the travel pack and drive belts and on talking to Beta Marine they had tried even a one was slipping clutch to improve operation. I removed the system as i felt like I was driving a ticking time bomb which would destroy the engine. I bought and fitted a very reasonably priced support which takes the strain off the crankshaft. Which Personally I would fit even if i has large alternators. Picture attached of kit

B57160DF-9DE1-493F-ADB0-4ED14D1EDE3E.jpeg

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5 minutes ago, chevron said:

It is correct that some with a travel pack driven off the front pulley can end up with a loose pulley and damage to the key way resulting in a new pulley and crankshaft being needed. The spline shaft  at the front is where  a tractors accessories would be driven from. Beta sometimes cuts the splined shaft off for easy access to tighten the pulley nut which is in the maintenance guide to be check  for tightness. Where my engine is fitted checking the tightness would be so difficult as up against a bulk head. I had so much trouble with the travel pack and drive belts and on talking to Beta Marine they had tried even a one was slipping clutch to improve operation. I removed the system as i felt like I was driving a ticking time bomb which would destroy the engine. I bought and fitted a very reasonably priced support which takes the strain off the crankshaft. Which Personally I would fit even if i has large alternators. Picture attached of kit

B57160DF-9DE1-493F-ADB0-4ED14D1EDE3E.jpeg

 

Where did you get the support from please?

On the slipping clutch comment, do you mean a freewheel pulley? Both the Travelpower and the large alternator have freewheel pulleys which apparently do help.

Edited by nicknorman
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14 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

Where did you get the support from please?

On the slipping clutch comment, do you mean a freewheel pulley? Both the Travelpower and the large alternator have freewheel pulleys which apparently do help.

 

15 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

Where did you get the support from please?

On the slipping clutch comment, do you mean a freewheel pulley? Both the Travelpower and the large alternator have freewheel pulleys which apparently do help.

I got the support direct from beta marine it was three or four years ago and was about 50 pounds plus postage. On my travel pack the ac alternator was mounted on the gearbox and was driven by a long shaft with a pulley on from a pulley on the front of the crankshaft. The clutch was fitted on the pulley on the long shaft they mentioned at beta they had tried it and it had not worked as intended. Bit more information about the system i had and removed. the engine ran at idle then when you pressed a button the engine would run at 1500rpm continuously, the gearbox a PRM500 had a trolling valve fitted and controlled the speed of the prop from zero to max revs. Everyone used to shout at me to slow down doe to the engine noise. I guess this set up was to take the strain off the engine trying to drive the ac motor. In my kitchen area you can start the engine and press a button which then runs the engine at 1500rpm so you could use the ac motor which was 7kw if cooking electric. My boat when I bought it came from an owner who had bought  the boat and engine system from new. I think they had some problems as hand written notes included detailed belt problems when I have looked at the front crank pulley bolt mine has been drilled and roll pins fitted to stop it moving this could have only been done with the engine removed due to difficult access.

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7 minutes ago, chevron said:

 

I got the support direct from beta marine it was three or four years ago and was about 50 pounds plus postage. On my travel pack the ac alternator was mounted on the gearbox and was driven by a long shaft with a pulley on from a pulley on the front of the crankshaft. The clutch was fitted on the pulley on the long shaft they mentioned at beta they had tried it and it had not worked as intended. Bit more information about the system i had and removed. the engine ran at idle then when you pressed a button the engine would run at 1500rpm continuously, the gearbox a PRM500 had a trolling valve fitted and controlled the speed of the prop from zero to max revs. Everyone used to shout at me to slow down doe to the engine noise. I guess this set up was to take the strain off the engine trying to drive the ac motor. In my kitchen area you can start the engine and press a button which then runs the engine at 1500rpm so you could use the ac motor which was 7kw if cooking electric. My boat when I bought it came from an owner who had bought  the boat and engine system from new. I think they had some problems as hand written notes included detailed belt problems when I have looked at the front crank pulley bolt mine has been drilled and roll pins fitted to stop it moving this could have only been done with the engine removed due to difficult access.

Sorry yes a freewheel pulley not clutch

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1 hour ago, chevron said:

 

I got the support direct from beta marine it was three or four years ago and was about 50 pounds plus postage. On my travel pack the ac alternator was mounted on the gearbox and was driven by a long shaft with a pulley on from a pulley on the front of the crankshaft. The clutch was fitted on the pulley on the long shaft they mentioned at beta they had tried it and it had not worked as intended. Bit more information about the system i had and removed. the engine ran at idle then when you pressed a button the engine would run at 1500rpm continuously, the gearbox a PRM500 had a trolling valve fitted and controlled the speed of the prop from zero to max revs. Everyone used to shout at me to slow down doe to the engine noise. I guess this set up was to take the strain off the engine trying to drive the ac motor. In my kitchen area you can start the engine and press a button which then runs the engine at 1500rpm so you could use the ac motor which was 7kw if cooking electric. My boat when I bought it came from an owner who had bought  the boat and engine system from new. I think they had some problems as hand written notes included detailed belt problems when I have looked at the front crank pulley bolt mine has been drilled and roll pins fitted to stop it moving this could have only been done with the engine removed due to difficult access.

Thanks. I’ll need to have a look at how much clearance we have to the bulkhead.

 

Ah ok your’s is the 7kw version, mine is just the 3.5kw version driven by a pulley adjacent to the big alternator pulley. The belt just about copes with 3.5kw, 7kw would be horrendous!

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Thank you all for the replies and pictures.

 

Sorry but just to be sure I've got this right, are there three possibilities where the crankshaft & pulleys are concerned:

1. Splined crankshaft end and corresponding pulleys (later engines - Nick Normans pic?)

2. Woodruff key pulley connection with protruding splined crankshaft end (which has the possibility of fitting support kit in chevrons pic?)

3. Woodruff key with cut crankshaft end 

 

And it is No 3 with Travelpower that is best to avoid?

Also Is it a similar situation with the 38?

 

Sorry for all the dumb questions, I learned that hard way about buying things I know nothing about with classic cars

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21 minutes ago, Morris said:

Thank you all for the replies and pictures.

 

Sorry but just to be sure I've got this right, are there three possibilities where the crankshaft & pulleys are concerned:

1. Splined crankshaft end and corresponding pulleys (later engines - Nick Normans pic?)

2. Woodruff key pulley connection with protruding splined crankshaft end (which has the possibility of fitting support kit in chevrons pic?)

3. Woodruff key with cut crankshaft end 

 

And it is No 3 with Travelpower that is best to avoid?

Also Is it a similar situation with the 38?

 

Sorry for all the dumb questions, I learned that hard way about buying things I know nothing about with classic cars


not sure that #2 exists. Yes #3 with cut end could be problematic. But only if it’s been run under heavy electrical load at low rpm for long periods. There are a very large number of Beta 43s that have never had this problem. A few have. Do you feel lucky?

The 38 comes with a smaller alternator so likely to be less of a problem

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22 minutes ago, Morris said:

Thank you all for the replies and pictures.

 

Sorry but just to be sure I've got this right, are there three possibilities where the crankshaft & pulleys are concerned:

1. Splined crankshaft end and corresponding pulleys (later engines - Nick Normans pic?)

2. Woodruff key pulley connection with protruding splined crankshaft end (which has the possibility of fitting support kit in chevrons pic?)

3. Woodruff key with cut crankshaft end 

 

And it is No 3 with Travelpower that is best to avoid?

Also Is it a similar situation with the 38?

 

Sorry for all the dumb questions, I learned that hard way about buying things I know nothing about with classic cars

Woodruff key pulley with either the splines  protruding or beta marine have cut some off. Never heard of a splined crankshaft wonder if people are getting it confused with having protruding splines . would be nice if they have up dated the crank to a stronger construction?

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Interesting... my description of scenario 1 was based on the idea (not sure where i got it from) of a toothed mounting hole on the pulley taking the drive from the splined end on the crankshaft.  If this is not the case surely a woodruff key arrangement with protruding splined end is no better than the cut end without the support kit. 

 

Also if engine scenario 2 doesn't exist what purpose does the support kit serve? 

 

Fortunately/unfortunately for me it is a moot point anyway as the boat i was interested in with this engine sold this morning while I was travelling to see it and put an offer on! 

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5 minutes ago, Morris said:

Interesting... my description of scenario 1 was based on the idea (not sure where i got it from) of a toothed mounting hole on the pulley taking the drive from the splined end on the crankshaft.  If this is not the case surely a woodruff key arrangement with protruding splined end is no better than the cut end without the support kit. 

 

Also if engine scenario 2 doesn't exist what purpose does the support kit serve? 

 

Fortunately/unfortunately for me it is a moot point anyway as the boat i was interested in with this engine sold this morning while I was travelling to see it and put an offer on! 


That’s a shame. But I think the take away point should be that for the vast majority of cases, a Beta 43 is a really good and reliable engine. I’d go so far as to say “the best”. Whilst it may not be perfect, it is better than the rest,

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18 minutes ago, Morris said:

Interesting... my description of scenario 1 was based on the idea (not sure where i got it from) of a toothed mounting hole on the pulley taking the drive from the splined end on the crankshaft.  If this is not the case surely a woodruff key arrangement with protruding splined end is no better than the cut end without the support kit. 

 

Also if engine scenario 2 doesn't exist what purpose does the support kit serve? 

 

Fortunately/unfortunately for me it is a moot point anyway as the boat i was interested in with this engine sold this morning while I was travelling to see it and put an offer on! 

It shows that despite all the doom & gloom it is still a sellers market. See it the day it comes on the market or lose it.

 

Snooze and you lose.

 

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It shows that despite all the doom & gloom it is still a sellers market. See it the day it comes on the market or lose it.

 

Snooze and you lose.

 

 

I was just interested to see if I could find a definitive answer as I had read a lot of good things about the beta marine engines so I was surprised when I read elsewhere about this potential design flaw. Maybe it's a nothingburger, and it hasn't put me off beta marine engines in general.

 

I actually viewed the boat twice, the first time was three weeks ago.  I found the timing of it being sold quite comical - the adjustment bureau at work!

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In these times you do have to be very procative, looking and 'thinking about it for 3 weeks' is unlikely to get you a boat.

 

Many buyers are registering with brokers and they get the 'heads up' that a boat is coming in for sale and the 1st one there gets the boat, they often never even reach the websites - some boats are even being sold 'unseen' and bought over the phone based on description only.

 

If you are really serious about buying a boat you will need to get yourself in a position where you can view it the day you find about about it, and have funds available to pay for it - oft times having to wait several weeks for a surveyor can mean that it is sold underneath you so you need to decide if you are going to have a survey or not.

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11 hours ago, Morris said:

 

I was just interested to see if I could find a definitive answer as I had read a lot of good things about the beta marine engines so I was surprised when I read elsewhere about this potential design flaw. Maybe it's a nothingburger, and it hasn't put me off beta marine engines in general.

 

I actually viewed the boat twice, the first time was three weeks ago.  I found the timing of it being sold quite comical - the adjustment bureau at work!

 

It was a design flaw for the early Beta engines (e.g. Beta 43) when fitted with (optional) extra high-load polyvee pulleys to drive two big alternators or a Travelpower; the Woodruff key wasn't man enough for the job given the overhanging pulleys and extra side load and torque, and there are multiple reports of this damaging the crankshaft keyway resulting in the need for an engine rebuild (new crankshaft) or replacement with a splined crankshaft (if possible) or a new engine (if not possible).

 

After this was realised by Beta (in 2008? -- anyone know a definitive date or serial number?) they left the original splined power takeoff shaft (used in construction equipment to drive things like hydraulic pumps) in place, and AFAIK there have been no problems since then -- though obviously splined pulleys are needed rather than keyed ones.

 

There is now (still?) a recommendation in place not to run the engine for high-power charging below 1200rpm, because the alternator load can then be much bigger than a propeller load at low rpm and can excite low-frequency torsional resonances which might cause damage. They also recommend using free-wheeling alternator pulleys (IIRC these are standard on their high-power alternators/Travelpower) to reduce belt wear and torsional loads.

 

That's my understanding anyway, based on discussions with Beta... 😉

Edited by IanD
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Quite apart from the above, it is just asking for trouble running an alternator a high output at low revs. It depends to a degree on the pulley ratio but the lower the engine speed the less cooling air is drawn through the alternator. That alone makes the 1200 rpm recommendation an excellent one, at least until the charging currant starts to drop.

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44 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Quite apart from the above, it is just asking for trouble running an alternator a high output at low revs. It depends to a degree on the pulley ratio but the lower the engine speed the less cooling air is drawn through the alternator. That alone makes the 1200 rpm recommendation an excellent one, at least until the charging currant starts to drop.

And even more so if you're charging LFP batteries, which tend to fry alternators because unlike LA they accept maximum charging current for long periods of time. An alternator temperature sensor/external controller is highly recommended in this case, and if possible a ducted cool air feed (fan/blower) to the alternator(s) -- see this photo from the excellent MarineHowTo site...

 

cooked alternator.jpg

Edited by IanD
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The best way to limit the maximum charge current and hence stop overheating, is of course to limit the maximum field current rather than eg to introduce a resistance in the charging cable. This is what I do, the Iskra 175 has a field coil resistance of about 3 ohms, making the max field current just over 4A. My “slow charge” mode limits the max field current to 2A which gives me about 75A at idle and 95A at cruising rpm. From that you can see that one advantage is lower charge rate at lower rpm (lower cooling fan speed) even though the alternator is capable of putting out near max current at that rpm.

 

I have long wondered whether simply introducing a resistance into the field circuit would be a low tech but more elegant way to stop overheating. Of course it does require taking the back off the alternator and intercepting the circuit between field diodes / regulator/ rotor but that is no more than has to be done to install an alternator controller.

 

If say a 3 ohm resistor was added, that would take the field current down to around 2A max. Resistor would dissipate around 12 watts so it would need to be beefy but not huge. Of course due to the soft regulation curve there would be a decrease in output voltage in the medium charge phase (field current starting to go below 2A) but with Li, that phase only lasts a few minutes. Someone should try it!

Edited by nicknorman
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5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The best way to limit the maximum charge current and hence stop overheating, is of course to limit the maximum field current rather than eg to introduce a resistance in the charging cable. This is what I do, the Iskra 175 has a field coil resistance of about 3 ohms, making the max field current just over 4A. My “slow charge” mode limits the max field current to 2A which gives me about 75A at idle and 95A at cruising rpm. From that you can see that one advantage is lower charge rate at lower rpm (lower cooling fan speed) even though the alternator is capable of putting out near max current at that rpm.

 

I have long wondered whether simply introducing a resistance into the field circuit would be a low tech but more elegant way to stop overheating. Of course it does require taking the back off the alternator and intercepting the circuit between field diodes / regulator/ rotor but that is no more than has to be done to install an alternator controller.

 

If say a 4 ohm resistor was added, that would take the field current down to around 2A max. Resistor would dissipate around 16 watts so it would need to be beefy but not huge. Of course due to the soft regulation curve there would be a decrease in output voltage in the medium charge phase (field current starting to go below 2A) but with Li, that phase only lasts a few minutes. Someone should try it!

 

The best way to control charge current/voltage and prevent overheating (and protect the batteries) while allowing the fastest possible charging is -- of course! -- a properly configured external alternator controller with temperature sensing and low-rpm current pullback like the Wakespeed.

 

Of course this is also much *much* more expensive than Nick's idea... 😉

Edited by IanD
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