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No survey, am I an idiot


Phoebeg543

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8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

My sincere condolences....

 

 

 

That's very kind of you old boy, but possibly not entirely necessary.

Like any city, the Pewl has (at least) its fair share of social problems, but I couldn't be prouder of the way it has maintained its political sanity and tolerance at a time when much of the country appears very keen to emulate 1930s Germany. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, LadyG said:

I'm no expert, is it rusting along waterline ?

It it rusty all over?

Is the rust bad?

 

You could give it a good tap with a hammer above waterline, but will it stand a good thump below?

 

Watched a bit of a hull survey yesterday and thought the Surveyors hammer test is just for show and a total waste of time. You would of hit a block of nut toffee harder with a toffee hammer then he hit the side of the hull. The owner seamed impressed though.

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28 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

That's very kind of you old boy, but possibly not entirely necessary.

Like any city, the Pewl has (at least) its fair share of social problems, but I couldn't be prouder of the way it has maintained its political sanity and tolerance at a time when much of the country appears very keen to emulate 1930s Germany. 

 

 

What relevance and help has posts like this to do with the OP’s question.?

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1 minute ago, PD1964 said:

What relevance and help has posts like this to do with the OP’s question.?

 

I feel I've made an effort to offer some advice to the OP, and so now I deserve a little fun.

You might remember fun- its that thing you used to have about 70 years ago. 

Or maybe not. 

 

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7 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

That's very kind of you old boy, but possibly not entirely necessary.

Like any city, the Pewl has (at least) its fair share of social problems, but I couldn't be prouder of the way it has maintained its political sanity and tolerance at a time when much of the country appears very keen to emulate 1930s Germany. 

 

 

I’ve always admired how they deal with facists.

 

7 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Watched a bit of a hull survey yesterday and thought the Surveyors hammer test is just for show and a total waste of time. You would of hit a block of nut toffee harder with a toffee hammer then he hit the side of the hull. The owner seamed impressed though.

Is the hammer test not done for the sound feedback from the metal? Like knocking on a plasterboard wall to find the stud behind? I dunno, i’m no surveyor.

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7 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Is the hammer test not done for the sound feedback from the metal?

 

Yes.  An experienced surveyor uses the sounding hammer to decide which areas need more detailed checking with the ultrasound tester.  

 

Idiots just bash the hull hard in random places to see if it makes a big hole ...

 

 

Edited by TheBiscuits
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12 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Yes.  An experienced surveyor uses the sounding hammer to decide which areas need more detailed checking with the ultrasound tester.  

 

Idiots just bash the hull hard in random places to see if it makes a big hole ...

 

 

 

 

Yes a well known and well regarded surveyor checked the condition of the baseplate on one of mine a few years back using the hammer method, and pronounced it sound as a bell and in A1 insurable condition. 

 

A few months after, the boat started to sink from baseplate corrosion. 

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If I was going to have a smaller boat just for summerI would seriously think about GRP. There are plus and minus points for both materials but a steel boat over 30 years old could well have corrosion issues.  If you buy it and keep it 10 years it will be a bit worrying. It will still be perfectly repairable though. People now are spending colossal amounts on new narrowboats and they are not reckoning that the boat will be beyond repair in 30 years but of course it will be painted in much better paint than the boats of 30 - 40 years ago. The fear of overplating is exaggerated, there are boats well over 100 years old and not many of them are on their first bottom. Many of the commercials in Europe are rivetted which means they must be 40 years old and often much older. They will have been repaired as necessary.  Many of the old Dutch steel or iron leisure boats have been overplated. The chances of finding a boat of history and character without repairs and overplating are very small indeed. Would I buy an overplated boat? Yes but I would REALLY want to check it over out of the water. One last thought, Whatever you floor the thing with you will need to get at the bottom sometime - boats need to be built so that theycan be taken apart again

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18 minutes ago, Bee said:

If you buy it and keep it 10 years it will be a bit worrying.

 

 

I think this is the nub of it. It's all about the owner and their approach to risk, not the boat.

 

Owning it would worry you so you would be unsuitable as an owner. I'm different, it would not bother me one jot. I would happily buy it and use it for as long as it floats (probably a decade or two still), then throw it away.

 

Or give it away more accurately. There are plenty of people about who would love a free narrowboat, even a sinker.  

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9 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

I feel I've made an effort to offer some advice to the OP, and so now I deserve a little fun.

You might remember fun- its that thing you used to have about 70 years ago. 

Or maybe not. 

 

I have a laugh every time I’m on here reading some replies, 70 years ago, I’m only 58.

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1 hour ago, Bee said:

If I was going to have a smaller boat just for summerI would seriously think about GRP. There are plus and minus points for both materials but a steel boat over 30 years old could well have corrosion issues.  If you buy it and keep it 10 years it will be a bit worrying. It will still be perfectly repairable though. People now are spending colossal amounts on new narrowboats and they are not reckoning that the boat will be beyond repair in 30 years but of course it will be painted in much better paint than the boats of 30 - 40 years ago. The fear of overplating is exaggerated, there are boats well over 100 years old and not many of them are on their first bottom. Many of the commercials in Europe are rivetted which means they must be 40 years old and often much older. They will have been repaired as necessary.  Many of the old Dutch steel or iron leisure boats have been overplated. The chances of finding a boat of history and character without repairs and overplating are very small indeed. Would I buy an overplated boat? Yes but I would REALLY want to check it over out of the water. One last thought, Whatever you floor the thing with you will need to get at the bottom sometime - boats need to be built so that theycan be taken apart again

 

I agree with the GRP advise, among other points of note is usually they are far more manoeuvrable, have a low draft so can moor up in places nbs cant, and are often far faster yet produce less bank erosion as there is less water displacement due to their draft. Whilst some Nbs dont sadly let boats past that can be a curse at  times. They are usually cheap to buy. Its sad that their era appears to be fast passing as they were a great cheap entry into boating. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

I think this is the nub of it. It's all about the owner and their approach to risk, not the boat.

 

Owning it would worry you so you would be unsuitable as an owner. I'm different, it would not bother me one jot. I would happily buy it and use it for as long as it floats (probably a decade or two still), then throw it away.

 

Or give it away more accurately. There are plenty of people about who would love a free narrowboat, even a sinker.  

this might be dumb but how quick would i find out if it's sinking?

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12 hours ago, PD1964 said:

Watched a bit of a hull survey yesterday and thought the Surveyors hammer test is just for show and a total waste of time. You would of hit a block of nut toffee harder with a toffee hammer then he hit the side of the hull. The owner seamed impressed though.

You might want to get a hearing test as it is all about the sounding.

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53 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

 

I agree with the GRP advise, among other points of note is usually they are far more manoeuvrable, have a low draft so can moor up in places nbs cant, and are often far faster yet produce less bank erosion as there is less water displacement due to their draft. Whilst some Nbs dont sadly let boats past that can be a curse at  times. They are usually cheap to buy. Its sad that their era appears to be fast passing as they were a great cheap entry into boating. 

 

 

I agree, they are still cheap entry into boating.

The cheapest seem to be Dawncraft and Norman.

Dawncraft are more roomy and the 22's and 25's have almost 6ft headroom, but I think they are ugly things.

Norman 23's, 24's and 27's are (in my opinion) better looking boats and usually have 6ft headroom but, have the floor following the curve of the hull, and many owners level the floor across as it makes walking inside easier, but reduces headroom by a couple of inches.

If you are lucky, you may find a grp boat that has been kitted out for living aboard, cooker and oven, hot water, cabin heating, shower, solar etc. and may have a diesel engine, but will likely be coupled to an Enfield transom drive which are very expensive to service and repair.

Outboard powered is cheaper and simpler,but being petrol powered there are drawbacks.

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On 14/09/2022 at 16:53, Barneyp said:

What condition is the rest of the boat in?

Is the engine ok, does it start first time and sound ok, any kind of service history (even just an envelope full of receipts)

What's the fit out like, any signs of damp or mould, does the cooker work, do the taps work etc.

What's the paint work like.

 

If everything else is ok and you buy the boat and then have to spend another £15,000 on overplating, you will have spent £27,000 on a reasonable condition 30 foot boat.

If you need to repaint the outside, fix leaky windows, replace mouldy and damp ply lining, overhaul/replace the engine and gearbox, etc. The £27,000 could turn into £37,000 or more.

 

When my boat was in dock for blacking about 3 years ago, it had to be urgently removed from the dry dock.

 

The reason was someone had bought an old Springer without a survey and decided to spend £5k on a repaint. Whilst in the paint dock it began to sink, so my boat was removed from the dry dock to allow them to put the Springer there.

 

After inspection the Springer needed extensive replating, which cost another £15k.

 

So the buyers unsurveyed bargain ended up having far more money spent on it than  the boat was ultimately worth.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

When my boat was in dock for blacking about 3 years ago, it had to be urgently removed from the dry dock.

 

The reason was someone had bought an old Springer without a survey and decided to spend £5k on a repaint. Whilst in the paint dock it began to sink, so my boat was removed from the dry dock to allow them to put the Springer there.

 

After inspection the Springer needed extensive replating, which cost another £15k.

 

So the buyers unsurveyed bargain ended up having far more money spent on it than  the boat was ultimately worth.

 

 

Yeah that's the type of thing that concerns me. I was thinking if I got it and ended up having to get it overplated/it's a bit of a write off sinker how much do you reckon it could sell for?

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13 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

When my boat was in dock for blacking about 3 years ago, it had to be urgently removed from the dry dock.

 

The reason was someone had bought an old Springer without a survey and decided to spend £5k on a repaint. Whilst in the paint dock it began to sink, so my boat was removed from the dry dock to allow them to put the Springer there.

 

After inspection the Springer needed extensive replating, which cost another £15k.

 

So the buyers unsurveyed bargain ended up having far more money spent on it than  the boat was ultimately worth.

 

 

An old steel boat is risky without a survey unless you are very knowledgable or a gambler  or have pots of money ( like Mtb!)

For us relatively poor and risk averse boaters a grp boat makes a lot of sense.

There is at the moment a Nauticus 27 for sale on Facebook and e bay which looks mint.These are very fine boats indeed, and this one has a reserve of £12500, which I think a bit overpriced, as for that price I would expect it to be well equipped but this one only boasts a two ring hob.It does however have a trailer which at the moment means it could be transported to wherever without worrying about stoppages.

To kit this out as a livaboard I reckon would 2- 3 thousand doing it yourself, and considerably more to have tradespeople doing it.

I would love to have it, but it's too dear for me.

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2 minutes ago, Phoebeg543 said:

Yeah that's the type of thing that concerns me. I was thinking if I got it and ended up having to get it overplated/it's a bit of a write off sinker how much do you reckon it could sell for?

If after you've bought it you find the hull is paper thin/severely pitted/actually leaking, you could theoretically sell it for whatever you bought it for - if your willing to not be truthful and find some one willing to buy it without a survey.

Assuming you have some morals it will still probably be worth a couple of grand or more to someone who (thinks) they or a mate have the skills to repair the hull themselves. 

 

If you spend the money getting it replated it is unlikely to be worth the combined cost of purchase plus replating 

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On 14/09/2022 at 15:31, Phoebeg543 said:

Hi all. I'm just looking for a sense check really, I have a feeling you'll just say that it's up to me and you don't know the condition of a boat without a survey so you can't advise but basically I'm mulling over buying a 30ft 1971 (definitely 70s but it might be later) NB. The seller is willing to go to 12k for a quicker sale at my suggestion (it was 14k and the quicker sale is a logistics thing with various holidays between us)  but that would be buying without a survey. I almost bought a boat last year but the survey came back poor and I dipped out but that one was £30,000. If say the hull was bust and I discovered that when I went to black it in a few months time (it hasn't been done in 4 years) how much might I be looking at for re/overplating? Does it seem like a good shout at this price with potential work or do you think it'll be more headache/wallet ache than it's worth? Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the matter!

Given all thats been said, for the sake of a thousand pounds, why not have a survey. If you decide not to buy the boat after survey, it will have been money well spent. If you decide to buy the boat after survey, it will have been money well spent.

 

Either way, you end up either winning, or not losing.

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2 hours ago, Phoebeg543 said:

Yeah that's the type of thing that concerns me. I was thinking if I got it and ended up having to get it overplated/it's a bit of a write off sinker how much do you reckon it could sell for?

 

£0, give or take a £k or two. 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

I’ve always admired how they deal with facists.

 

Is the hammer test not done for the sound feedback from the metal? Like knocking on a plasterboard wall to find the stud behind? I dunno, i’m no surveyor.

Yes, the point of a hammer survey is the sounds you hear not an attempt to knock great holes in the object under survey.

Admittedly I use hammer survey techniques on trees not boat hulls but the method is the same, surprisingly accurate too

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