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Flight empty of water


Onionman

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Do you mean the lock chamber was empty or the water between the two locks was pretty much gone? If its the water between the two locks (The pound) then the best thing to keep the rest of the flight full would be to have a discussion with the boater ahead, hope they listen to you, point out thet water has drained away and they need to alter their technique a little (Well a lot probably TBF)   and hope a Volonteer Locky may come along to save water and get the person to understand what they are doing isn't quite the best way. 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Onionman said:

Arrived at Stockton flight the other morning and the flight was pretty much empty.

 

Someone was having a go ahead of us but it all looked a bit slapdash and they were clearly making it up as they went along.  What's the correct way to fill a flight?

 

 

In a normal year, you'd find out where the shallowest pound is on the flight and aim to get that one refilled. At Hurleston last year we had a similar issue (I think a leak was causing it) so the only way to refill the flight was to open both top and bottom paddles on the top lock to send water down and then as the pound between that and the second lock fills, do the same on the next lock, and the next until you get to the shallowest pound then start shutting all paddles again, starting from the bottom up. Since Hurleston reservoir was at the top of the flight and there wasn't a shortage last year it was time and inconvenience rather than anything else.

 

This year we still don't want to be wasting water so I'd be putting as little amount of water down the flight as you can get away with (you'll be taking a lockfull down with you anyway). It kind of depends how big the pounds between the locks are. We'll be going down Stockton tomorrow so we'll see if it's been sorted.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Do you mean the lock chamber was empty or the water between the two locks was pretty much gone? If its the water between the two locks (The pound) then the best thing to keep the rest of the flight full would be to have a discussion with the boater ahead, hope they listen to you, point out thet water has drained away and they need to alter their technique a little (Well a lot probably TBF)   and hope a Volonteer Locky may come along to save water and get the person to understand what they are doing isn't quite the best way. 

 

 

My reading of it (might be wrong) was that the boat crew in front was trying to sort out the empty pound, rather than causing it.

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
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Going down the Aston flight about 10 days ago the pounds were quite low so we opened the top and bottom paddles of the top lock for a few minutes and then worked our way down taking our water with us. If you are coming up it's a bit more of a problem.

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34 minutes ago, Chris John said:

Call CRT 

 

5 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

 

They maybe better to be looking at something elsewhere. Its a bit like calling the AA when you need to change  a spare tyre (If one is available) and you have the tools ability and skills to do it. Im sure someone round there would have been able to sort it out. 

Doesn't CRT have a van with extra water in it?

31 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

In a normal year, you'd find out where the shallowest pound is on the flight and aim to get that one refilled. At Hurleston last year we had a similar issue (I think a leak was causing it) so the only way to refill the flight was to open both top and bottom paddles on the top lock to send water down and then as the pound between that and the second lock fills, do the same on the next lock, and the next until you get to the shallowest pound.

I don't understand the focus on the shallowest pound.  All the pounds with insufficient water to float the boat will need more.

With very few exceptions, the only option is to run water down from a higher level.  One needs to be mindful of the effects on boats within the various pounds.

Unless it is clear the underlying problem has bee fixed, I would run down only enough to scrape through.  If there is no leak, the passage of subsequent boats will help return the proper levels.

It is a situation where someone on the bank is very useful in running the minimum necessary.  My technique is to draw paddles at both ends of a lock, with all gates close. This is an anathema to my wife, who insists on delivering it in discrete look lockfuls.

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8 minutes ago, Tacet said:

 

 

I don't understand the focus on the shallowest pound.  All the pounds with insufficient water to float the boat will need more.

With very few exceptions, the only option is to run water down from a higher level.  One needs to be mindful of the effects on boats within the various pounds.

Unless it is clear the underlying problem has bee fixed, I would run down only enough to scrape through.  If there is no leak, the passage of subsequent boats will help return the proper levels.

It is a situation where someone on the bank is very useful in running the minimum necessary.  My technique is to draw paddles at both ends of a lock, with all gates close. This is an anathema to my wife, who insists on delivering it in discrete look lockfuls.

The focus on the shallowest pound was because that is probably going to be the one to ground you. You don't want to get down four or five pounds and then find that you haven't got enough into the shallowest and have to go back to the top to run some more down. My example was however, specific to Hurleston last year since there was plenty of water to refill the whole flight  with the reservoir at the top and the flow coming down from Llangollen. This year is a different kettle of fish and I'm trying to save water wherever I can.

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30 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The focus on the shallowest pound was because that is probably going to be the one to ground you. You don't want to get down four or five pounds and then find that you haven't got enough into the shallowest and have to go back to the top to run some more down. My example was however, specific to Hurleston last year since there was plenty of water to refill the whole flight  with the reservoir at the top and the flow coming down from Llangollen. This year is a different kettle of fish and I'm trying to save water wherever I can.

The amount coming down the bywash last week was unbelievable and it was fairly early morning.

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Call CRT is the technically correct answer. If they turn up while you're running water through yourself they may give you a bit of an earful and they will likely tell you to remain where you are while they set about doing things their way.

 

Nonetheless, experienced boaters will generally run water through but one thing to note is that when CRT do it themselves they tend to use just one half paddle at each end of the lock with all gates closed to avoid scouring out of silt and depositing it into locks and particularly onto the seals of the gates.

 

The 'problem' with boaters running water through is that often they will simply move the problem to somewhere it doesn't affect them rather than correct it.

 

For those who boat full days it's very common to encounter low pounds early in the morning. On most known problem sites the CRT operatives tend to turn up soon after they start at 0800 to sort out any water level issues.

 

Was it perchance last Friday morning that the OP found Stockton empty? I was the last boat through on Thursday.

 

I've encountered low pounds at Stockton in the past and last Friday I found the lowest pound at Bascote to be almost empty at 0830. I cycled the lock above twice and that was sufficient and still left enough water above. Most pounds that run dry do so in part because they have relatively low volumes of water in them even when full and hence aren't too difficult to replenish.

 

The GU locks on the Birmingham line all have significant wear on the lower gates so if the last boat movement of the day is down the flight and the upper gates have significant leakage they are prone to draining the pounds above. 

 

 

.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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9 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

when CRT do it themselves they tend to use just one half paddle at each end of the lock with all gates closed to avoid scouring out of silt and depositing it into locks and particularly onto the seals of the gates.

If you are running water to refill  a pound this is the most important thing to observe.

 

CRT do have an annoying tendency to waste water by refilling to weir level.  All that is really needed is to put in enough for your boat to just float in.  The movement of boats will sort the levels eventually and if the pounds are not full there is less water to leak away to waste.

 

N

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Had same problem in July. If you wait until 9am CRT will show up as i’m told they do every morning, at least that’s what the two CRT bods in the van said. Luckily for us we’d arrived at the empty pounds below lock 8 about five minutes before they arrived. If it’s busy they come again in the afternoon.

I guess its one of those unwritten persistent problems that only locals know about, like the bottom of the HNC by Hudds Uni, that they just have to keep wasting man hours on until a fix finally comes around. 

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11 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

The focus on the shallowest pound was because that is probably going to be the one to ground you. You don't want to get down four or five pounds and then find that you haven't got enough into the shallowest and have to go back to the top to run some more down. My example was however, specific to Hurleston last year since there was plenty of water to refill the whole flight  with the reservoir at the top and the flow coming down from Llangollen. This year is a different kettle of fish and I'm trying to save water wherever I can.

I would work my way down the four or five pounds and carefully deal with a troublesome pound when I reached it.  I'm not sure how you would conventionally know that the fifth or sixth pound ahead was too shallow without walking the flight.

 

When descending, the pound behind can be left shallow (assuming no boat tied up within it).  I wouldn't usually take it upon myself to leave the whole flight full in case there was a proper leak.

 

It is more tricky when ascending a flight with shallow pounds when you have to further rob the next pound to get through.  You might then need to go further ahead and use your best guess on how much water to flush down and how far.  It can be done in stages to help prevent over doing it.

 

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I did call the CRT out to assist when I saw a NB coming down a pound and being stopped, midstream, surrounded by a few tyres and other debris. Fortunately their crew was on shore and managed to assist with water, but I was totally fazed.

CRT turned up pretty quick, muttered something about paddles left open , possibly overnight, water levels were restored and everything worked out satisfactorily, from my point of view, anyway.

Edited by LadyG
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8 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

Had same problem in July. If you wait until 9am CRT will show up as i’m told they do every morning, at least that’s what the two CRT bods in the van said. Luckily for us we’d arrived at the empty pounds below lock 8 about five minutes before they arrived. If it’s busy they come again in the afternoon.

I guess its one of those unwritten persistent problems that only locals know about, like the bottom of the HNC by Hudds Uni, that they just have to keep wasting man hours on until a fix finally comes around. 

When will that be? More chance of platting fog. Not enough traffic to warrant a permanent fix. Sticking plasters and all that. 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

Had same problem in July. If you wait until 9am CRT will show up as i’m told they do every morning, at least that’s what the two CRT bods in the van said. Luckily for us we’d arrived at the empty pounds below lock 8 about five minutes before they arrived. If it’s busy they come again in the afternoon.

I guess its one of those unwritten persistent problems that only locals know about, like the bottom of the HNC by Hudds Uni, that they just have to keep wasting man hours on until a fix finally comes around. 


Interesting, not had a problem on the Stockton flight nor seen low pounds? Having seen two self inflicted empty pounds on Hatton recently I was assuming it was a boater( vandal) problem. Z xxxxx
 

As most of us know the paddles on Stockton are large and a non fully lowered paddle with a not being alert to what to do if the lock fills slower before equalising thank usual can mean an empty pound pretty fast. 
 

Whatever it is proper dredging in these fairly small pounds would surely add a number of locks worth in reserve to each pound. 

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There is a pound on the Stockton flight, the second one down if I remember correctly, which is often empty in the morning. We’ve used Stockton several times over the past year and if I’ve gone for an early morning run up the flight the pound has been very down or empty. By the time I’ve had breakfast and we’ve headed up the flight CRT have been and topped it up. 

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15 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:


Interesting, not had a problem on the Stockton flight nor seen low pounds? Having seen two self inflicted empty pounds on Hatton recently I was assuming it was a boater( vandal) problem. Z xxxxx
 

As most of us know the paddles on Stockton are large and a non fully lowered paddle with a not being alert to what to do if the lock fills slower before equalising thank usual can mean an empty pound pretty fast. 
 

Whatever it is proper dredging in these fairly small pounds would surely add a number of locks worth in reserve to each pound. 

What we found with those GU hydraulic things that take 23 turns, is that a lot of people don’t wind them down to close they just let them go. We were advised to do this by a couple of fellow boaters and a vollockie as it “saves time”. We also found that whilst this may be true and they drop slowly without slamming shut, on some of them this means they do not fully close, so after a couple of locks we reverted back to our usual way of working.

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4 hours ago, IanM said:

We're quick to blame the paddles or gates but with the widened GU lock flights could the leak be through one of the abandoned narrow locks somehow?  Not saying it is, just that it could be a possibility.

 

Agree thats very possible if its one pound. My impression was it was not necessarily one pound, but then we usually get to Stockton later in the day. From the OP it seems like it was a number of pounds which would point more to "vandalism"  (quote- the flight was pretty much empty) 

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I think it’s the pounds between 8 and 10 that drain regular, as i remember a dog walker passing us and saying we’d be stuck as it was “empty after the bridge again” and shortly after the CRT chap got us to wait above the lock and to open all paddles until he said otherwise.

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8 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

What we found with those GU hydraulic things that take 23 turns, is that a lot of people don’t wind them down to close they just let them go. We were advised to do this by a couple of fellow boaters and a vollockie as it “saves time”. We also found that whilst this may be true and they drop slowly without slamming shut, on some of them this means they do not fully close, so after a couple of locks we reverted back to our usual way of working.

Yes, I'd always thought those Ham Baker's were hydraulic (they feel like it when you are winding them) but apparently not, they seem to be more like a bottle jack on a car.

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My method (now that I've realised they are supposed to be lowered under gravity) is to release the pawl (or whatever they call it on those paddles) and using a gloved hand control the descent until it is down. If it hasn't fully bedded I just give it a turn by hand.

Edited by Wanderer Vagabond
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