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Bowthruster usage


Stroudwater1

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7 hours ago, howardang said:

Of course, no damage is caused to banks, including piling, by those who run their engines in gear for hours on end while alongside in order to charge their batteries?

Howard

How about all the ones who just give it full power and hope the bows will eventually draw away from the bank at some point.

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26 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

How about all the ones who just give it full power and hope the bows will eventually draw away from the bank at some point.

Indeed, I suspect they belong to the same school group that uses full throttle while winding.

 

Howard

 

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3 hours ago, howardang said:

I think Alan just forgot the "Tongue in Cheek" Emoji.

 

Howard

 

No I didn't forget.

 

 

It is written into law :

 

 

Turning of propellers of moored vessels

38. No person shall unless so authorised by the Board turn or cause to be turned the propeller or propellers of any vessel while such vessel is moored alongside any wharf, wall, bank or other work of the Board except as may be necessary for the proper navigation of the vessel.

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28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Turning of propellers of moored vessels

38. No person shall unless so authorised by the Board turn or cause to be turned the propeller or propellers of any vessel while such vessel is moored alongside any wharf, wall, bank or other work of the Board except as may be necessary for the proper navigation of the vessel.

So as long as the ropes are off that could be a BT

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On 08/09/2022 at 11:28, Victor Vectis said:

We took a holiday on VIC 32 earlier this year (Recommended! http://savethepuffer.co.uk/ )

 

I was impressed by the way she was handled moving off certain quaysides, ie: spring rope on the stern, engine in reverse and out swung the bow.

I'm going to try this where I can next time I'm on our boat.

 

Doesn't everybody do this when bollards/rings are available and also move the stern in/out using a bow spring? ;)

 

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When leaving a lock or coming away from a berth, French commercial boatmen (and others who have watched them 😁) will initially have the wheel turned to drive the bow into the wall they are lying against. Obviously the bow can't move, but the stern comes right out. When it is far enough they will put the wheel the other way and put on sufficient power to steer the fore end away from the wall, but not so much that the stern comes right back in. They then glide on out of the lock. Done judiciously there is no need of a spring. Bow thruster?  Who needs one of those?

 

Tam

Edited by Tam & Di
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On 08/09/2022 at 14:11, Richard10002 said:

Surely, if you want to get the stern out, you push the tiller away from the bank and engage forward gear. It works just like a bowthruster at the stern.

If you want to move the stern away from the bank, try a short burst of reverse to do so.

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56 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

When leaving a lock or coming away from a berth, French commercial boatmen (and others who have watched them 😁) will initially have the wheel turned to drive the bow into the wall they are lying against. Obviously the bow can't move, but the stern comes right out. When it is far enough they will put the wheel the other way and put on sufficient power to steer the fore end away from the wall, but not so much that the stern comes right back in. They then glide on out of the lock. Done judiciously there is no need of a spring. Bow thruster?  Who needs one of those?

 

Tam

All of which is absolutely fine if you have a crewmember on shore (or at the bow) to cast off the bow line and then either stay on shore or jump onto the boat -- plus a bollard or mooring ring at the bow.

 

Which often isn't the case on the canals, and definitely not if you're single-handing... 😉

 

There's a terrible snobbishness about bow thrusters by certain people who insist that they're useless and anyway they never need one because they're so skilled at steering and the ODGs managed fine without them -- as if they never get into a situation where one would actually be useful, because they can't admit that. Using them to steer instead of the rudder is indeed laughable, but sometimes they are genuinely useful -- and if you don't want one, nobody's forcing you to have (or use) one... 😉

Edited by IanD
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1 minute ago, IanD said:

All of which is absolutely fine if you have a crewmember on shore (or at the bow) to cast off the bow line and then either stay on shore or jump onto the boat -- plus a bollard or mooring ring at the bow.

 

Which often isn't the case on the canals, and definitely not if you're single-handing... 😉

I think Tam was meaning you did this without any lines at the bow.

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4 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

I think Tam was meaning you did this without any lines at the bow.

But if you put the wheel over and drive ahead -- which I think is what he was describing -- the boat moves forwards as the stern moves out, unless the bow is tied up -- which I think is what he meant since he said "obviously the bow can't move".

 

Doing this when not tied up is also fine if there's space for the boat to move forwards without colliding with the boat moored immediately in front... 😉

Edited by IanD
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4 minutes ago, IanD said:

All of which is absolutely fine if you have a crewmember on shore (or at the bow) to cast off the bow line and then either stay on shore or jump onto the boat -- plus a bollard or mooring ring at the bow.

 

Which often isn't the case on the canals, and definitely not if you're single-handing... 😉

I have no problem doing this single handed. Untie the bow rope and put it on the boat. Then walk along the bank to the back of the boat, untie the stern rope and step (not jump) back on board, stow the rope then use the engine to get off.

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5 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I have no problem doing this single handed. Untie the bow rope and put it on the boat. Then walk along the bank to the back of the boat, untie the stern rope and step (not jump) back on board, stow the rope then use the engine to get off.

Which is not what Tam described, which seems to be using the engine going ahead to push the stern out while the bow is tied up.

 

Doing what you said is how any single-hander has to do it, the problems is how to do it without moving the boat forwards or backwards and hitting another boat moored right next to you. I'd push the stern out then step on board, wait until it's swung away from the bank, then reverse out -- it's not difficult... 😉

Edited by IanD
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I suspect the ones that scoff at bow thruster use are the same that put their boat in gear to charge  batteries, don’t know what tick over means and open gates by ramming them with the bow of their  boat. Probably the same that leave gates open when they leave a lock, moor at water points and on bridge landings and dump their ash in the hedge row. Probably some or all of the above. Do I do any of that……no but I do use a bow thruster! 

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20 minutes ago, Chris John said:

I suspect the ones that scoff at bow thruster use are the same that put their boat in gear to charge  batteries, don’t know what tick over means and open gates by ramming them with the bow of their  boat. Probably the same that leave gates open when they leave a lock, moor at water points and on bridge landings and dump their ash in the hedge row. Probably some or all of the above. Do I do any of that……no but I do use a bow thruster! 

Those who scoff and sneer about the use of bow thrusts should join the ranks of the luddites, and revert to how the earlier boatmen powered their boats. They used horses and/or like here in the NE waterways, by the use of sail and muscle power. Now they  were real boatmen, not pale imitations, unlike the scoffers.😉 Personal, I will  use any aid to boating that makes life easier, just like engines, solar power, and all the other helpful and useful aids to boating, and if they want to scoff they are very welcome. Howard :cheers:

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2 hours ago, IanD said:

But if you put the wheel over and drive ahead -- which I think is what he was describing -- the boat moves forwards as the stern moves out, unless the bow is tied up -- which I think is what he meant since he said "obviously the bow can't move".

I had in mind a standard 39m x 5m péniche in locks 10-12m wide which where such a manoeuvre will be useful - the best comparison is probably a narrowboat in Grand Union wide locks or the wide locks in northern waterways. There are no lines involved in this at all. Just gentle use of the engine - if you give it lots of wellie, then yes, the fore end will slide along the wall. It's quite a delicate operation, using just sufficient power to achieve the desired result. Unfortunately my use of the phrase "obviously the bow can't move" was ambiguous - I simply meant that although you have the rudder over in the direction to drive the fore end into the wall, it can't actually do that, but the stern does comes away.

 

Getting away from somewhere you are tight between two boats would require something different. For some people it seems there are only two positions on their throttle - stopped or flat out. Brief spurts of power in conjunction with rudder movement will pivot the boat without  gaining a lot of forward motion; also paddling gently ahead (or astern) can achieve all sorts of manoeuvres of the boat when necessary.

 

Obvious bollards are a rare beast on UK canals, but having suitable lines with a suitable eye that allows you to lassoo one from a distance and flick it back off again also makes life easier.

 

Tam

Edited by Tam & Di
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26 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

I had in mind a standard 39m x 5m péniche in locks 10-12m wide which where such a manoeuvre will be useful - the best comparison is probably a narrowboat in Grand Union wide locks or the wide locks in northern waterways. There are no lines involved in this at all. Just gentle use of the engine - if you give it lots of wellie, then yes, the fore end will slide along the wall. It's quite a delicate operation, using just sufficient power to achieve the desired result. Unfortunately my use of the phrase "obviously the bow can't move" was ambiguous - I simply meant that although you have the rudder over in the direction to drive the fore end into the wall, it can't actually do that, but the stern does comes away.

 

Getting away from somewhere you are tight between two boats would require something different. For some people it seems there are only two positions on their throttle - stopped or flat out. Brief spurts of power in conjunction with rudder movement will pivot the boat without  gaining a lot of forward motion; also paddling gently ahead (or astern) can achieve all sorts of manoeuvres of the boat when necessary.

 

Obvious bollards are a rare beast on UK canals, but having suitable lines with a suitable eye that allows you to lassoo one from a distance and flick it back off again also makes life easier.

 

Tam

 

Anyone with a binary attitude to throttle control (I've seen them too) shouldn't be steering a boat... 😞

 

With most rudders there's always some forward thrust even with the rudder hard over, so moving the stern out without moving forward isn't simple -- you have to do this for a short/gentle burst, then go astern for a bit to catch any forward movement, then repeat until the boat stern is out. Doesn't really matter whether you use more or less power, flat plate rudders never just move the stern sideways. Schilling rudders pretty much can though... 😉

schilling vector.png

Edited by IanD
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3 hours ago, Idle Days said:

If you want to move the stern away from the bank, try a short burst of reverse to do so.

 

IIRC from my Helmsmans Course, that works best on a shallow canal. When I have tried it on The Bridgewater, it doesnt have the same effect.

 

In reality, I usually give the bow a good push, then the stern a gentle push, then go ahead, either with the tiller central, or a bit away from the bank, dependant upon where the bow ends up pointing.

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4 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

 

IIRC from my Helmsmans Course, that works best on a shallow canal. When I have tried it on The Bridgewater, it doesnt have the same effect.

 

In reality, I usually give the bow a good push, then the stern a gentle push, then go ahead, either with the tiller central, or a bit away from the bank, dependant upon where the bow ends up pointing.

 

There are lots of ways of getting a boat away from the bank in different circumstances including going ahead, going astern, both, pushing the bows out, pushing the stern out, both, using ropes, not using ropes, using a bow thruster or not using one.

 

All work at least some of the time, including using a bow thruster. Some are easier and more reliable than others, especially for less athletic or skilled or solo boaters... 😉

Edited by IanD
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38 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 

 

Obvious bollards are a rare beast on UK canals, but having suitable lines with a suitable eye that allows you to lassoo one from a distance and flick it back off again also makes life easier.

 

Tam

We don't do that in the UK which maybe we should do more especially in the likes of Thames locks etc.

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1 hour ago, Loddon said:

I scoff at those that use a bow thruster on a NB  but then I can handle a boat unlike many johnny come lately boaters.

 

 

I often do too, but I also acknowledge there are occasions when a BT would be useful. Just not many, and even then I'd be inclined not to use it if I had one, as the honking screaming noise they make would draw immediate attention to its use! 

 

I'm reasonably sure the main use I'd have for one would be when reversing, when I think one would be dead handy. 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

There are lots of ways of getting a boat away from the bank in different circumstances including going ahead, going astern, both, pushing the bows out, pushing the stern out, both, using ropes, not using ropes, using a bow thruster or not using one.

 

All work at least some of the time, including using a bow thruster. Some are easier and more reliable than others, especially for less athletic or skilled or solo boaters... 😉

Exactly which strongly suggests that boaters should get to know how their boat reacts to a variety of circumstances rather than learning by rote. In other words, boatmanship, or seamanship if you prefer, is something which boaters should learn but something that many do not, hencethe frequent questions on this forum about the basics.😀

 

Howard

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22 minutes ago, howardang said:

Exactly which strongly suggests that boaters should get to know how their boat reacts to a variety of circumstances rather than learning by rote. In other words, boatmanship, or seamanship if you prefer, is something which boaters should learn but something that many do not, hencethe frequent questions on this forum about the basics.😀

 

Howard

Agreed -- but even for an experienced boater a BT used appropriately can still be useful sometimes, and those looking down their noses at people who have them on the assumption that they're all unskilled idiots are just betraying their prejudices... 😉

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36 minutes ago, MtB said:

I'm reasonably sure the main use I'd have for one would be when reversing, when I think one would be dead handy. 

 

Personally never had a problem reversing my narrow boat, it seems to go where I want it to.

But then I watch where the bow is going rather than the stern ;)

 

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23 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Personally never had a problem reversing my narrow boat, it seems to go where I want it to.

But then I watch where the bow is going rather than the stern ;)

 

 

Me too. In fact I spend 90% of the time looking forward to detect the beginnings of the boat turning the wrong way. Once it starts, immediate full rudder is needed to counter the turning beginning but sometimes I'm too late and have to engage ahead, and the boat needs to completely stop before the rudder will bite again to straighten the boat up. doing this a few times in a 1/4 mile reverse take an absolute age when a BT would straighten the boat in a few seconds.

 

Sometimes I can do a 1/4 mile reverse in one go. Other times the same reverse needs 7 or 8 "stops and straighten-ups". 

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