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Why are CRT licensing and mooring separate from each other?


tats

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18 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

That could be a really useful precedent so please can you provide a link to where we can access a report of the actual case you are referring to?

 

I am sorry, I no longer have any details. It was at least twentyfive years ago, I do remember that there was a specific committee/ working group of the IWA which dealt with it. I can still remember the name of the person who was either the IWA chairman or negotiator at the time, but as he is no longer involved I am reluctant to identify him on a public web site. If you PM me I can give you his name and last known contact details.

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19 hours ago, tats said:

Why are CRT licensing and CRT mooring separate from each other?  As a customer, one tends to think that they are one and the same

 

Go to their website and follow the links to "Change ownership" and you'll find ...

Transfer of Boat Ownership to another person

Please complete this form when you stop being the owner or keeper of a boat that has or is being kept or used on our waters. If you do not complete this form and you are no longer the owner/keeper of the boat and do not tell us, its licensing responsibilities will remain with the current licence-holder.

Please note cancelling your licence will not automatically cancel your mooring agreement with the Trust. 

Should you wish to cancel your mooring agreement as well, please contact waterside.mooring-enquiries@canalrivertrust.org.uk or use the form which can be found here https://www.watersidemooring.com/News/View/20/cancel-mooring-agreement-online

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It's like in Spinal Tap when David St Hubbens is putting the blame on Ian Faith, the manager, for the Stonehenge dimentions being small, when it was Nigel Tuffnel who wrote them on the napkin, and he says to Ian, 'But you're not as confused as him', and that Ian should have checked it all. And so it is with CRT. They should take you through it, make sure you are getting it right, navigating you around the system, living in a real world where not everyone has clocked all the T&Cs..but, then, I am nice, that is how I would like to run things.

 

I'm just glad to be leaving, to have gone. Glad to have experienced it. Some fantastic times and people, mostly. I'm back on tera firma, but it is different than before. Boating could be tough, so i appreciate the convenience much more than i ever did, so life is better, I feel so much richer. Anyway, best to draw a line under it and sail on. Thanks for your replies

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7 hours ago, tats said:

It's like in Spinal Tap when David St Hubbens is putting the blame on Ian Faith, the manager, for the Stonehenge dimentions being small, when it was Nigel Tuffnel who wrote them on the napkin, and he says to Ian, 'But you're not as confused as him', and that Ian should have checked it all. And so it is with CRT. They should take you through it, make sure you are getting it right, navigating you around the system, living in a real world where not everyone has clocked all the T&Cs..but, then, I am nice, that is how I would like to run things.

 

I'm just glad to be leaving, to have gone. Glad to have experienced it. Some fantastic times and people, mostly. I'm back on tera firma, but it is different than before. Boating could be tough, so i appreciate the convenience much more than i ever did, so life is better, I feel so much richer. Anyway, best to draw a line under it and sail on. Thanks for your replies

But they do take you through it as far as they can - it's on the form you fill in when you transfer the boat. You can't really expect a personal phone call...

You may find the small print of living in a house a challenge - especially if you ever have to claim on any form of insurance, or deal with an incorrect motoring fine.

Certainly, though , I'd be considerably richer if I scrapped the boat. And if next year's water levels are the same or worse than this, that's what I'll be doing.

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Arthur, good for you, that you are prepared to leave. That thing, well if they could have just said when I called them and could have said, 'Yes, we have got that, but you need to inform Mooring yourself, also. And thank you very much, we hope you have enjoyed being on the canal, and we would like to wish you all the best for the future........something like that. Of course, it would cost them to say that, because I would not then fall into a small print trap, but hey ho

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I seem to recall a legal case which showed that if there were unusually or particularly onerous conditions hidden within the T&Cs then they should be highlighted to the customer. At the bottom  is a written finding  by a judge in a more recent case which would appear to show that those claiming to read all the T&C are “None but the most dedicated “ . 

Im not sure this would appear to be the case here, it does seem to be needlessly onerous though that’s for sure. Potentially it could be very costly too. However no doubt rather than bothering to add the relatively easy option to cancel both simultaneously CRT will merely highlight it more within the contract should anyone take legal action I expect. 

I must say whenever “it’s in the T&C” are quoted at me I always advise the person  that they should know that the small print isn’t legally enforceable. I’ve always won my discussion at this point and got back that that’s properly due to me. 
 

The Judge ruled that as an onerous condition, clause 4.6 had not been fairly or reasonably brought to the defendant’s attention, but was “buried in the middle” of the lengthy standard terms and conditions and “…cunningly concealed in the middle of a dense thicket which none but the most dedicated could have been expected to discover…”.

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53 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I seem to recall a legal case which showed that if there were unusually or particularly onerous conditions hidden within the T&Cs then they should be highlighted to the customer. At the bottom  is a written finding  by a judge in a more recent case which would appear to show that those claiming to read all the T&C are “None but the most dedicated “ . 

Im not sure this would appear to be the case here, it does seem to be needlessly onerous though that’s for sure. Potentially it could be very costly too. However no doubt rather than bothering to add the relatively easy option to cancel both simultaneously CRT will merely highlight it more within the contract should anyone take legal action I expect. 

I must say whenever “it’s in the T&C” are quoted at me I always advise the person  that they should know that the small print isn’t legally enforceable. I’ve always won my discussion at this point and got back that that’s properly due to me. 
 

The Judge ruled that as an onerous condition, clause 4.6 had not been fairly or reasonably brought to the defendant’s attention, but was “buried in the middle” of the lengthy standard terms and conditions and “…cunningly concealed in the middle of a dense thicket which none but the most dedicated could have been expected to discover…”.

Given the website quote above and that the requirement is clearly not onerous, I'd be surprised if anyone could win a case on that basis. OTOH, if you have an especially deep pocket, give it a go.

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The only possible chance of confusion, I'd have thought, would be if one had been a CC for years, then got a mooring and sold the boat almost at once. Otherwise, for years, like me, you would have been paying at least two different parties for licence and mooring, possibly at different times. I, on my farm mooring, pay three.

Admittedly, it always seemed daft to me that one does, and that one can be done online and the other not, and there is no communication between them, but it's still fairly obvious that to CRT they are different things.

Even though, really, they aren't.

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2 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I seem to recall a legal case which showed that if there were unusually or particularly onerous conditions hidden within the T&Cs then they should be highlighted to the customer. At the bottom  is a written finding  by a judge in a more recent case which would appear to show that those claiming to read all the T&C are “None but the most dedicated “ . 

Im not sure this would appear to be the case here, it does seem to be needlessly onerous though that’s for sure. Potentially it could be very costly too. However no doubt rather than bothering to add the relatively easy option to cancel both simultaneously CRT will merely highlight it more within the contract should anyone take legal action I expect. 

I must say whenever “it’s in the T&C” are quoted at me I always advise the person  that they should know that the small print isn’t legally enforceable. I’ve always won my discussion at this point and got back that that’s properly due to me. 
 

The Judge ruled that as an onerous condition, clause 4.6 had not been fairly or reasonably brought to the defendant’s attention, but was “buried in the middle” of the lengthy standard terms and conditions and “…cunningly concealed in the middle of a dense thicket which none but the most dedicated could have been expected to discover…”.

 

 

And there was a lawyer whose name it is not easy to determine, who acerbically observed "The law, like the Ritz Hotel, is open to everyone". 

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2 minutes ago, Ronaldo47 said:

I believe it was actually said by a High Court Judge over a century ago, but I don't recall the name of the case.  

 

 

I thought so too but I briefly googled it before posting, and it is attributed to a wide variety of lawyers, none a judge.

 

 

But the point remains. Like the Ritz, the law is open to the OP to use, if he feels CRT have wronged him.

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3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

3 hours ago, MtB said:

 

I thought so too but I briefly googled it before posting, and it is attributed to a wide variety of lawyers, none a judge.

 

But the point remains. Like the Ritz, the law is open to the OP to use, if he feels CRT have wronged him.

The saying is generally attributed to Sir James Mathew, an Irish judge. 

 

The point was being made that, whilst the law is open to everyone, only the rich can afford to take legal action (just as only the rich can afford to stay at the Ritz ...).

 

It was this inequality that legal aid was meant to address.

Edited by Allan(nb Albert)
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5 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

 

The saying is generally attributed to Sir James Mathew, an Irish judge. 

 

The point was being made that, whilst the law is open to everyone, only the rich can afford to take legal action (just as only the rich can afford to stay at the Ritz ...).

 

It was this inequality that legal aid was meant to address.

And did, for a year or two. I wonder who decided that justice was not for the poor?

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Yet again, another thread blaming CRT, then finding out the Terms & Conditions which they ask you to read, is not read or even looked at and that's why they didn't know.  Sounds more a you problem, than a CRT problem. 

 

Get the frustration.  But blaming others without checking......well, you leave yourself open to it. 

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On 05/09/2022 at 08:00, Arthur Marshall said:

The only possible chance of confusion, I'd have thought, would be if one had been a CC for years, then got a mooring and sold the boat almost at once. Otherwise, for years, like me, you would have been paying at least two different parties for licence and mooring, possibly at different times. I, on my farm mooring, pay three.

Admittedly, it always seemed daft to me that one does, and that one can be done online and the other not, and there is no communication between them, but it's still fairly obvious that to CRT they are different things.

Even though, really, they aren't.

In one important way they are different: CaRT are required to issue a licence subject only to the minimal conditions frequently stated on here.  On the other hand, moorings are subject to more conventional contract T&C and can be granted or withheld at CaRT's whim.

 

Hence if you were to annoy CaRT they cannot withhold the licence unless you fail to meet the stat conditions (pedants: ignore the debate over what they can do about T&C in this case) but they could throw you off your mooring, probably at a moment's notice.

 

The two are certainly subject to different conditions.

 

In your case, playing a trombone at midnight could lead to no mooring without question, but it is certainly debateable whether being inconsiderate to other boaters is sufficient grounds to cancel your licence.

Edited by Mike Todd
break in internet connection
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On 05/09/2022 at 12:52, Allan(nb Albert) said:

 

The saying is generally attributed to Sir James Mathew, an Irish judge. 

 

The point was being made that, whilst the law is open to everyone, only the rich can afford to take legal action (just as only the rich can afford to stay at the Ritz ...).

 

It was this inequality that legal aid was meant to address.

What's legal aid?

 

 

(OK I should have made the remark on the politics page!)

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1 hour ago, Mike Todd said:

 

In your case, playing a trombone at midnight could lead to no mooring without question, but it is certainly debateable whether being inconsiderate to other boaters is sufficient grounds to cancel your licence.

I'm on a non-residential farm mooring - the only people who might object to the trombone at midnight are the cows, who seem to recognise it as one of their kind.

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