considering moving into a boat but need advice

[enigmatic]

7 hours ago, dmr said:

and even if ownership of the land is part of the deal do check that you have free access to that land and not just an informal agreement to cross land belonging to somebody else. Also do clarify ownership of the water and long term permission to moor, in addition to ownership of the land.

And that you know what annual mooring fees (if any) are owed to the navigation authority to moor there, and if that's an arrangement both parties are happy to continue.

 

Just because the ownership of the land with historic rights to moor there is transferred doesn't necessarily mean the mooring is free

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

 

I have done a search of the Land Registry and they say that they don't have any information for Houseboat Gringley.

...

I don't know if this means that the Land Registry are aware of Gringley, (which is good), but it is not registered, or that it is registered but maybe has not changed hands since registered. 

It means that Houseboat Gringley is included on the Royal Mail address list supplied to the Land Registry, but LR probably have no other information. Which means the land is not registered under that name/address. There are various land parcels listed under the same postcode, so it could be one of those.

In ordinary house purchase, the vendor's solicitor would normally provide evidence of title, including LR copy of the title if already registered, to the buyer's solicitor, and this would normally happen after an offer has been accepted and each side has instructed solicitors. Estate Agents would be unlikely to have the information. So while you can ask the vendor or estate agent, you may not get much further at this stage.

[Peanut]

It is possible to do a “Map Search” at the Land Registry, to find the title number for the land, and then buy a copy of the Land Register entries for that piece of land.  If it is registered, that is.

 

You might approach the owner of any vessel moored nearby, to find out what their setup is. It might be different, of course, but they may know something about the boat for sale.

 

Likewise, it would be good to approach the Navigation Authority for the waterway to find out what the mooring rights are.

 

That is all doable before spending big money, but you will need a solicitor to sort out the land sale, and maybe a broker to sort the boat sale.  At least they will know the ropes, as it were.

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, Peanut said:

It is possible to do a “Map Search” at the Land Registry, to find the title number for the land, and then buy a copy of the Land Register entries for that piece of land.  If it is registered, that is.

 

 

All good advice. Given the EA's comments about the title having being successfully "transferred" in the past to successive boat owners, the land must be registered. 

 

But somehow, forgive my cynicism, I doubt it has. Registration of land with residential PP is widespread but registration of non-residential plots of land seems fraught with difficulty. The LR registration of this mooring (or not) ought to be a make or break thing, IMO. 

 

 

 

[LadyG]

Has OP been back , I think all this speculation is interesting, but probably a waste of time 

[howardang]

26 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Has OP been back , I think all this speculation is interesting, but probably a waste of time 

Yes, at 1813 last Saturday.

 

Howard

 

[agg221]

25 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Has OP been back , I think all this speculation is interesting, but probably a waste of time 

Yes they have - the OP replied on Saturday evening.

 

This purchase is something of a minefield as it isn't quite standard for land or a boat as it contains both and to be worthwhile they need to be interlinked through the right to use the land the way which is intended, with the right to moor. This makes it quite complex.

 

However. there are reasonable ways to confirm that all the above is the situation. Assuming this can all be confirmed, it's a unique opportunity, with an interesting historic boat in a beautiful setting with a decent outdoor space to use as a garden and all within walking distance of a city centre. I am not looking to live on a boat, but if I was then this would tick a lot of boxes for me so I would see it as well worthwhile to break down the questions systematically.

 

I would look to speak to the seller if possible. They are far more likely to understand what you are asking and why, since they have been through the same loop themselves whilst the estate agent has not. Even on our relatively simple house purchase there were questions which only the seller could answer.

 

Alec

[PD1964]

10 minutes ago, howardang said:

Yes, at 1813 last Saturday.

 

Howard

 

No on Saturday just gone, just over a day ago. maybe she is busy looking at other property.

[manxmike]

I wonder why the boat would have to go to Hull for a survey. Are there no dry docks that could take a widebeam nearer? Using an Estate Agent to sell a boat seems a really strange idea to me. This all seems a bit worrying, especially given the amount of money that will be changing hands.

[Richard10002]

8 hours ago, agg221 said:

However. there are reasonable ways to confirm that all the above is the situation. Assuming this can all be confirmed, it's a unique opportunity, with an interesting historic boat in a beautiful setting with a decent outdoor space to use as a garden and all within walking distance of a city centre. I am not looking to live on a boat, but if I was then this would tick a lot of boxes for me so I would see it as well worthwhile to break down the questions systematically.

 

I would look to speak to the seller if possible.

 

All of this ^^^^^^

 

Assuming the seller is available, (at a viewing, if not by special arrangement), then they should know how things went when they bought it.

[agg221]

4 hours ago, manxmike said:

Using an Estate Agent to sell a boat seems a really strange idea to me. This all seems a bit worrying, especially given the amount of money that will be changing hands.

 

It's a bit of an unusual situation (although a positive one) in that the sale is of both a boat and some associated land. Estate agents are unlikely to know about residential boat sales but boat brokers are unlikely to know about land sales, so I suppose you have to pick one or the other.

 

Alec

[PD1964]

5 hours ago, manxmike said:

I wonder why the boat would have to go to Hull for a survey. Are there no dry docks that could take a widebeam nearer? Using an Estate Agent to sell a boat seems a really strange idea to me. This all seems a bit worrying, especially given the amount of money that will be changing hands.

No dry docks in the area or many places that can take a boat that size. Hull with it’s sea going ships is the only place. I believe it is over 70ft by 15.8ft. 
 Using an Estate agent will target the dreamers, who know nothing about boats and are looking at it like bricks and mortar and not as a boat that they will never use and has little chance of going anywhere.

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

No dry docks in the area or many places that can take a boat that size. Hull with it’s sea going ships is the only place. I believe it is over 70ft by 15.8ft. 
 Using an Estate agent will target the dreamers, who know nothing about boats and are looking at it like bricks and mortar and not as a boat that they will never use and has little chance of going anywhere.

 

When we were in Hull Marina we could find no one on the East Coast who could lift us - the maximum beam lift is 19 feet which is the beam of the Sea-Cats that service the Wind Farms. We are 23 foot beam and could find nowhere until we got 'round the corner' and onto the South Coast.

 

There are very few 'leisure boats' on the Trent / Ouse / Humber over about 12-14 feet beam and the marinas are just not geared up for any really 'fat-boats' so I can well believe that if it is aproaching 16 feet its going to be a long trip, or a very expensive crane (£1000's) hoist to get it out of the water. When we have the 100 tonne crane at the Marina he lifts around 25 boats (in a very long day) and it is £150 per boat.

[PD1964]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

When we were in Hull Marina we could find no one on the East Coast who could lift us - the maximum beam lift is 19 feet which is the beam of the Sea-Cats that service the Wind Farms. We are 23 foot beam and could find nowhere until we got 'round the corner' and onto the South Coast.

 

There are very few 'leisure boats' on the Trent / Ouse / Humber over about 12-14 feet beam and the marinas are just not geared up for any really 'fat-boats' so I can well believe that if it is aproaching 16 feet its going to be a long trip, or a very expensive crane (£1000's) hoist to get it out of the water. When we have the 100 tonne crane at the Marina he lifts around 25 boats (in a very long day) and it is £150 per boat.

I’ve just thought of a place that could do the boat in this posting if can’t get in Hull. Waddingtons Yard at Swinton, would have to do the same route as the Tanker through Goole.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

if can’t get in Hull.

 

Hull Marina should be able to do it with their hoist it can lift 50 tonnes and I'm pretty sure it'd take 16 feet beam.

[Richard10002]

10 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I’ve just thought of a place that could do the boat in this posting if can’t get in Hull. Waddingtons Yard at Swinton, would have to do the same route as the Tanker through Goole.

Hull isnt the problem. It had a survey in July in Hull. The problem is that the agents are saying a buyer can't have another survey because it has got one

[PD1964]

10 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Hull isnt the problem. It had a survey in July in Hull. The problem is that the agents are saying a buyer can't have another survey because it has got one

Then they say she can’t read it until the sale progresses further, makes no sense. 
 If I was the OP, I would just buy a newer Dutch Barge £200k ish, but I’d be looking for moorings only, not buying the mooring out right. As she has never lived on a boat and may not like it. If she doesn’t like the area just move or if she doesn’t like the lifestyle just sell up.

[rusty69]

If Hull isn't the problem, then surely it doesn't need a hull survey.🤣

[Peanut]

I would like to know the value of the land on its own, not a market appraisal from the estate agent but from a Chartered Surveyor, and a valuation of the boat from a Broker dealing in Dutch barges.  This might require a condition survey.  Only then would I be in a position to judge whether the deal is worth it to me.  The agent is being greedy, trying to get commission of the sale of both, rather than just the land.   For the barge, I would want to follow the standard practice of an offer subject to survey and a proper bill of sale for the boat, which I would get from a broker.

[PD1964]

it’s not a Dutch Barge, it’s an old working Barge. Similar to the old Sheffield and Humber barges, these can be had for next to nothing up around Yorkshire. Most were only built with 1/4” plate about 6mm and a lot were filled with concrete once the base plates started going. So would be hard to value. Here’s an old working barge £47K, I’ve seen old Springer’s going for more in London😊

http://alanpease.co.uk/2021/08/57ft-x-14ft-2ins-converted-barge-needs-finishing/

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by PD1964

[Alan de Enfield]

This one is pretty close in age and specification to the OPs, althought I'd suggest the fit-out is to a highe standard than the OPs boat.

 

63ft Extremely well converted barge £179,000 SOLD – Alan Pease Brokerage

 

 

The Estate Agent is obviously valuing the land highly as the 'package' is £300k

[John Brightley]

On 03/09/2022 at 19:53, PD1964 said:

Did they mention flooding? I know your on a boat and might think you’ll be ok. But looking at the picture and roughly guessing where it is, the river floods quite often and water levels get high.

I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned the flooding issue. This would be more important than anything else for me. It is very well known that the River Ouse floods in York quite frequently to quite high levels, and the mooring under discussion here is well within the floodplain. So is it even possible to get to/ from the boat in flood conditions? I'd recommend that the potential purchaser commissions a flood risk report from a surveyor who specialises in them (there are only a small number of people in the country who do this work)

[MtB]

1 hour ago, John Brightley said:

I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned the flooding issue. This would be more important than anything else for me. It is very well known that the River Ouse floods in York quite frequently to quite high levels, and the mooring under discussion here is well within the floodplain. So is it even possible to get to/ from the boat in flood conditions? I'd recommend that the potential purchaser commissions a flood risk report from a surveyor who specialises in them (there are only a small number of people in the country who do this work)

 

Very good point and you might have put your finger on why the site is being sold with the boat. Selling a legitimate mooring with PP seems odd to me. 

 

Never mind commissioning a surveyor though, to start with I suggest visiting the site and just asking a few neighbours or looking around. Stuff like duvets and plastic tarps hung up in the trees is a good indicator too!

[David Mack]

Or look at the EA flood mapping at https://check-long-term-flood-risk.service.gov.uk/map

[Tam & Di]

3 hours ago, John Brightley said:

I'm surprised that nobody else has mentioned the flooding issue.

 Ahem ...  right back at the beginning of the thread on 1st September I wrote "She needs to look properly at the mooring position - what annual costs are involved? is it liable to flooding?"   😁

 

I did also query the independent value of the boat and of the land.

 

 I think the OP might have had second thoughts as she's not been back recently.

 

Tam

Edited September 14, 2022 by Tam & Di