considering moving into a boat but need advice

[rusty69]

18 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Since the OP last visited yesterday at 01.40 they will not have seen any of the replies

 

That is only the last time they logged in. They may have seen all the replies.

[PD1964]

Anyone got a link or the name of the boat?  a few of these old Waddington/Humber keels have moved off the S&SY over the last couple of year with some going to the York area. 

Edited September 2, 2022 by PD1964

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

Anyone got a link or the name of the boat?  a few of these old Waddington/Humber keels have moved off the S&SY over the last couple of year with some going to the York area. 

 

No, as the OP hasn't replied. I obviously have a link to the one in York, but that may well, not be the boat in question.

[Ana Bright]

On 01/09/2022 at 00:45, Ana Bright said:

Hello, and I hope everyone is well and safe. I am new to this and I am  in need of some help please. I am currently selling my family home and considering moving into a boat. I found one which I truly love and obtain as much information about it via the estate agent and have had 2 viewings already. Is a 100 year old classic barge being sold with mooring rights, and freehold ownership of River Bank. 

 

The barge has been very well maintain, engine changed 2016, boiler / central heating and more work on it has been done recently - It had a service and survey in July this year, so when I asked about how feasible it would be for me to perform my own survey it was mentioned that it wouldn't be feasible due to having to transfer the barge from one place to a completely different location, complicated by the size which financially will make it extremely expensive.   

 

So I have been wondering for the last 2 days on what to do, since I can see the vital importance of having a survey done and wondering if any of you have come across any situation like this? Where you weren't able to perform a survey on a boat prior buying it? or risks and implications of doing this. 

 

I will greatly appreciate any guidance or advice 

 

Thank you once again

 

Ana 

 

 

 

 

Good afternoon everyone and sincerely hope you are all well.

 

I have to sincere apologise for my late reply between, work, family and house sale life has been extremely busy.  Thank you greatly for all your replies, I deeply appreciated  as this has been one of the most difficult decisions I have had to consider and exiting also, nonetheless. Therefore, all the knowledgeable advice that I have received is invaluable.  

 

I will try to answer as many questions as I can, although, there are some which I am still trying to find out myself via estate agent. 

 

-Yes, it is the boat in York as shown in the picture. 

-  I did asked if I could performed a survey on the boat but was told a recent one was done - as mentioned previously. 

- The reason given of why another survey wouldn't be feasible was first; just had one done, the boat would have to have the survey done in Hull and the cost will be of around £ 3,000. Although, I would have paid for it, so it made me wary. 

- Within my last conversation with them  ( estate agent) I expressed my concerned including insurance issues, I haven't seen the survey and after all your comments / answers I am even more wary about and I am preceding with caution.  

- I did ask to see if it would be possible to see the boats paper work at the beginning of my interest in it.  However, it was mentioned that things would need to be at a more formal stage for them to realise the papers - I will clarify what exactly does this means. 

-  Regarding, land. I was assured that I should not have any problems as the land has been transferred from owner to owner. I am aware that one can find big issues with this since at times this is not transferable. So it makes me cautious. 

- I think, if I remember correctly their was an enquiry regarding mortgage.  Not looking to take one or have a  loan so it is a big responsibility this possible purchase.  

 

I hope you are all able to see my reply since as mentioned previously I am so new to this. 

 

Once again, truly appreciate all your kind advice and answers to my question, 

 

Ana 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tam & Di]

1 hour ago, Ana Bright said:

 

 

The deal is very strange - there are in effect two separate elements to this deal. As Estate Agents they presumably know all they need to know about land sales, but boats are something else again, and they probably have no idea of the implications. You are quite right to press for sight of all the appropriate paperwork - you could ask for proof of ownership of the boat, which would probably confuse them no end. Certainly sight of the survey is a very basic requirement - you could at least make up your mind whether you wish to take it further at that point. Have they quoted any sort of value for the land and the vessel separately?

 

Tam

 

p.s. to continue that thought, people here can probably suggest a fair price for the boat, and that would show what they think the land is worth.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Tam & Di

[PD1964]

Did they mention flooding? I know your on a boat and might think you’ll be ok. But looking at the picture and roughly guessing where it is, the river floods quite often and water levels get high.

[ditchcrawler]

Is the mooring actually for sale, would you own it or is it just the mooring is available and transferable on some kind of lease? 

[MtB]

2 hours ago, Ana Bright said:

-  Regarding, land. I was assured that I should not have any problems as the land has been transferred from owner to owner. I am aware that one can find big issues with this since at times this is not transferable. So it makes me cautious. 

 

 

As Ditchcrawler implies too, I am beginning to think they are offering for sale only the boat. No land. This term "transfer" suggests a mooring rental agreement gets transferred to the new owner. 

 

The questions to ask are things like "Is the freehold of mooring site included in the sale?" "May I have sight of the boundary of the land please, marked on the Land Registry map?" "If the mooring is a rental agreement, who is the landlord?" "What are the terms of the rental agreement, including the rent?"

 

Also if the freehold is included, you need to purchase it separately from the boat, not all lumped into one transaction or you could be paying a few unnecessary 10s of £k extra in Stamp Duty Land Tax.

 

If you feel they are being evasive or tricky in their answers as them how much Stamp Duty Land Tax you will have to pay on the purchase, and post what they say on here.

 

 

[MtB]

It is important to sort this out as you could get a SDLT tax bill of up to £14,000 on this purchase if you don't take care over it, and it really is freehold.

[Alan de Enfield]

As I said in post No ???-  the advert details say the land is freehold & comes with the boat, (the details also say that the recent survey is available for viewing).

 

 

SURVEY

A copy of the survey for the boat are available from the selling agents.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

For a prospective purchaser who is completely new to boats, a recent survey should only be used as a guide as to whether to commission their own survey.

 

It has very little value apart from that. I'm not even sure an insurance company would be interested in the details of a survey commissioned by a previous owner.

[ditchcrawler]

If you do Facebook then look at this boat that was bought on the strength of a recent survey Facebook sorry I am not going to lift it and put it here

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As I said in post No ???-  the advert details say the land is freehold & comes with the boat, (the details also say that the recent survey is available for viewing).

 

 

Well yes the land is bound to be freehold at the top of the hierarchy of possession. The unresolved question is whether the freehold is included in the boat sale. And if it is, why are they using the word "transfer" for the mooring instead of "purchase".

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Well yes the land is bound to be freehold at the top of the hierarchy of possession. The unresolved question is whether the freehold is included in the boat sale. And if it is, why are they using the word "transfer" for the mooring instead of "purchase".

The other thing is, Do you believe everything estate agents say?

[Alan de Enfield]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

Well yes the land is bound to be freehold at the top of the hierarchy of possession. The unresolved question is whether the freehold is included in the boat sale.

 

This is a copy of the cut and paste (from the advert) I put in post No ?? on page 1 of the thread.

Does this clarify the situation ?

 

 

The sale includes the full freehold ownership of the mooring.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

This is a copy of the cut and paste (from the advert) I put in post No ?? on page 1 of the thread.

Does this clarify the situation ?

 

 

The sale includes the full freehold ownership of the mooring.

 

 

Excellent news. Is the OP entitled to rely on that? Or do you suggest "Caveat Emptor" might apply?

 

The latter I suggest, particularly with land purchases. Hence the points I have been raising, particularly as the OP came here asking for advice. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Barneyp]

I think the OP needs to separate the purchase into 2 parts 

1)the purchase of the land, get a solicitor to handle this to ensure they do get the freehold and find out the details of what rights and responsibilities they have with regard not only to mooring but maintenance of the bank, the right to put structures (shed) on the land etc.

2) the purchase of the boat, not sure a solicitor could add much here, maybe if the boat is fully registered they could help but in all likelihood there is not a full paper trail to enable this. It has occurred to me that the reason the estate agent is saying no to a survey or showing the previous survey to the purchaser maybe because they don't understand how boat sales work, with a property sale you wouldn't see the documentation until you had made an offer, and they may think a survey unnecessary as one was done in July. Possibly someone just needs to explain to them how things are normally done.

 

 

[dmr]

and even if ownership of the land is part of the deal do check that you have free access to that land and not just an informal agreement to cross land belonging to somebody else. Also do clarify ownership of the water and long term permission to moor, in addition to ownership of the land.

[MtB]

37 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

I think the OP needs to separate the purchase into 2 parts 

1)the purchase of the land, get a solicitor to handle this to ensure they do get the freehold and find out the details of what rights and responsibilities they have with regard not only to mooring but maintenance of the bank, the right to put structures (shed) on the land etc.

2) the purchase of the boat, not sure a solicitor could add much here, maybe if the boat is fully registered they could help but in all likelihood there is not a full paper trail to enable this. It has occurred to me that the reason the estate agent is saying no to a survey or showing the previous survey to the purchaser maybe because they don't understand how boat sales work, with a property sale you wouldn't see the documentation until you had made an offer, and they may think a survey unnecessary as one was done in July. Possibly someone just needs to explain to them how things are normally done.

 

 

 

 

Yes the property will have to be purchased separately from the boat as a solicitor will almost certainly be needed, unless the OP is a really fast learner where the laws governing "estates in land" are concerned.

 

Secondly, where land is concerned, it is unheard of to accept a survey commissioned by someone else. It is normal and expected for the purchaser to have have their own done. 

 

 

 

On reflection, the obstructiveness of the estate agent is ringing so many alarm bells that St Pauls cathedral would be proud to have that many.

 

 

[Tacet]

14 hours ago, MtB said:

 

. And if it is, why are they using the word "transfer" for the mooring instead of "purchase".

With registered land, which is the majority these days, it is technically correct to say it is transferred when ownership changes.  Unregistered land is conveyed.

But that is not to say the estate agent is using the term wisely.

 

[agg221]

16 hours ago, blackrose said:

For a prospective purchaser who is completely new to boats, a recent survey should only be used as a guide as to whether to commission their own survey.

 

It has very little value apart from that. I'm not even sure an insurance company would be interested in the details of a survey commissioned by a previous owner.

Under some extremely limited circumstances it is possible to use a recent survey for insurance. We managed to do so last year - the previous owner had a survey in 2020, from which they got insurance. The insurance was about to run out when we bought a year later and the insurer agreed that since the survey had been acceptable previously, it would continue to be acceptable for us to use. It does limit us to one insurer, but they are very reasonable and extremely helpful (the owner came in and sorted out the paperwork for us on a Saturday so that we could move the boat).

 

In the overwhelming majority of cases, I would not expect the above to work.

 

The point has been made regarding asking to see the boundaries of the freehold land as documented by Land Registry. This is a very straightforward request which the Estate Agent should be able to meet. If not, you can obtain the information from Land Registry yourself for a very modest fee. I doubt the land is unregistered (it would have to have not changed hands for a very long time, but it does happen - I have bought two pieces of unregistered land in the past decade). If it is not registered then you would generally ask for confirmation that the vendor has the deeds, and then find yourself a solicitor who is happy to undertake that type of conveyancing - they are relatively uncommon these days but there happens to be one in Beverley I think, who acted for the sellers when I bought the second piece.

 

I suspect the Estate Agent is unfamiliar with boat sales and thinks that the information they have made available is equivalent to a standard buyer's pack. Since the boat has an engine, and can move, and was surveyed, it clearly can be surveyed again and if it got to the point where this was the remaining hurdle to overcome, I would certainly be insisting that allowing me to have a survey undertaken (at my cost) was a condition of purchase.

 

Alec

[GUMPY]

Last two properties we bought were both unregistered, neither had changed owners since 1987.

[ditchcrawler]

33 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Last two properties we bought were both unregistered, neither had changed owners since 1987.

We had to register ours when it changed from Diana to joint names

[Richard10002]

23 hours ago, Ana Bright said:

 

-  Regarding, land. I was assured that I should not have any problems as the land has been transferred from owner to owner. I am aware that one can find big issues with this since at times this is not transferable. So it makes me cautious. 

 

Hi Ana,

 

I have done a search of the Land Registry and they say that they don't have any information for Houseboat Gringley. However, they do have information for Houseboat Sabrina  which is presumably nearby.

 

I don't know if this means that the Land Registry are aware of Gringley, (which is good), but it is not registered, or that it is registered but maybe has not changed hands since registered. 

 

 

https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/search/summary/RT8iVzcZcw9tMOCoLbDGEA==/2L6KJYBA5on4D8edCu3eTw==

 

https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/search/no-information/Ed1PGL0SK6KZMMPm6rvaBA==

 

 

The agents tell you it has been transferred from owner to owner but, if this were the case, I would expect to see some information including the price sold for, like with Sabrina.

 

I'm not a solicitor, so don't know the detail of how this works.

 

Have you asked for a copy of the survey? Have they refused or made it difficult? 

 

On the face if it it looks like a lovely place to live and is probably a genuine thing.... but the agents are not particularly helpful, and possibly ignorant in the selling of boats with a mooring.

[rusty69]

A Lincoln keel then, not a Humber keel

 

 

https://www.nationalhistoricships.org.uk/register/2267/gringley

 

https://emilieflower.wixsite.com/gringley/the-boat

 

Obv an old advert

 

https://emilieflower.wixsite.com/gringley/sale

Edited September 4, 2022 by rusty69