Off Grid

[Steilsteven]

17 years as a lıvıng aboard and about ten years attempting to be as green as possible.

620 watt solar array with Tristar 60 controller, 900 ah Trojan t105 batteries, Victron Phoenix Multi Plus 12/2500/120 combi inverter charger plus Mastervolt Whisper 6 ultra onboard generator. 

The solar supplies almost all our needs from beginning of April to the end of October with a few bonus days either side. The generator supplies all our needs for the rest of the time and uses ( for as long as I can still get it ) HVO instead of diesel. I have a home built solar collector which provides hot water during the Summer and an HVO fired boiler for the rest of the time. The boiler also heats 4 rads which we rarely use as our 4kw multi fuel stove is usually plenty on its own. We have taken to using Hotmax Fuel Logs as our main heat source supplemented by Ecoal as a means of keeping the fire in overnight.  

The biggest 230v power consumers are our Liebherr under counter fridge and freezer. We also have a 32" tv plus freeview box.

All lighting is 12 volt and LEDs of course. 

 

One thing to be aware of is that things do wear out or go wrong, I had to replace the Tristar after about 5 years, the generator has needed some ( expensive! ) replacement parts over the years and we're on our second set of Trojans having replaced the first set after 7 years ( I gave four of them to another boater who got another couple of years out of them ). 

 

Keith

[ditchcrawler]

6 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

Why not? It works very well for me. And for Dr Bob on here.

 

 

I have it as well.

[Thames Bhaji]

We fitted out our series hybrid barge over 15 years ago, with a 1000Ah lead acid bank and a 22kw marine generator charging at 48v. The big gen means we can push hard for a while on a river if we want / need to, and will quickly brings the lead-acid up to charge when needed. 
 

I’ve just added 12kwh of LiFePO4 to the system this summer. This takes 6kw from the gen when running (via MPPT solar controllers - not their recommended use but works fine). They then do the domestic loads and keep the lead-acid bank happy at 100% SOC when not travelling, and are kept topped-up by 1kw of PV. The lead-acid is now really just a buffer for propulsion use, and it all seems to be working well together so far. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by Thames Bhaji

[MtB]

4 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

 

More than a bit of an exaggeration, surely?

I've no idea what the actual percentage is, nor how you would find out, but a very significant percentage I would say have no solar.

 

 

Yes and the all come and moor opposite me and run their engines all day every time we get a beautiful sunny weekend. They claim they have to, in order to charge their batteries.

 

 

[alan_fincher]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The discussion is about liveaboard boats, the discussion is about solar on liveaboards, but, yes maybe I could have been clearer and said :

 

"Virtually every liveaboard boat on the waterways has solar panels fitted",

 

I still don't agree, even with that very significant change to what you originally posted.  From my observations there are plenty of live-aboard boats that have no solar.

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

 

I still don't agree, even with that very significant change to what you originally posted.  From my observations there are plenty of live-aboard boats that have no solar.

On our moorings over half have access to electricity however all but 2 boats that are livaboards have solar. The other boats even though they are holiday/weekends escape a lot still have solar it makes sense just to protect the batteries 

[Steilsteven]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

 

I still don't agree, even with that very significant change to what you originally posted.  From my observations there are plenty of live-aboard boats that have no solar.

Does it really matter?!

[alan_fincher]

28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

On our moorings over half have access to electricity however all but 2 boats that are livaboards have solar. The other boats even though they are holiday/weekends escape a lot still have solar it makes sense just to protect the batteries 

 

I don't disagree, (although currently we don't, as it is hard for it not to look very out of place on a 1930s boat.

You've got me wondering now -  our boats are in a mini-marina of (I think) 24 boats. I'll do a survey next time I'm there.

 

[Arthur Marshall]

49 minutes ago, Steilsteven said:

Does it really matter?!

No, but it's interesting. A friend who has lived on for over thirty years won't have solar because he says it spoils the look of his boat. But I am surprised by the number of obvious CC boats that don't have it.

I, these days on busy moorings, always try and moor between two boats with loads of solar on the grounds that they are less likely to run their engines for hours. 

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

No, but it's interesting. A friend who has lived on for over thirty years won't have solar because he says it spoils the look of his boat. But I am surprised by the number of obvious CC boats that don't have it.

I, these days on busy moorings, always try and moor between two boats with loads of solar on the grounds that they are less likely to run their engines for hours. 

I guess your friend has a greater priority for aesthetics than economics, which is very noble. 

 

With the ever increasing price of oil, and the ever decreasing price of panels, it is to me, an obvious thing to do. 

 

I only have 22 years aboard  but the panels only arrived 5 years ago, prior to which, they were prohibitively expensive, for us, anyway. 

 

Any newbie liveaboard is going to benefit, unless they have a marina hookup. 

 

Even non liveaboards can benefit in the long term due to the increased longevity they provide to battery life. 

 

Only those that cruise a lot, or have a land-line will see little benefit, but even they may see some benefit if cruising less in the winter months. 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by rusty69

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Being on a boat is unlikely to be the greenest way to live. The surface area of roof available for solar panels is low. Better on a wide beam than a narrowboat. I'd suggest going in to a marina with electrical hook up for the depths of winter. Grid electricity is a significant percentage renewable these days and the proportion that isn't, mostly gas, is a much more efficient way of burning fossil fuel than running a generator, or especially and engine to make electricity. The big compromise is that boaters all rely on burning something for heat. That can be smokeless coal, oil, bottled gas (expensive), or wood. Wood is the only renewable one, but is something like six times less energy dense than coal, so needs a huge storage volume. The solid fuels and diesel have particulate emissions for local pollution. Even with insulation, boats are poor at holding on to their heat. The greenest approach would be to live on land in a home built to be very well insulated, with a heat pump and lots more roof space for solar. If you are very lucky, an unobstructed hill for wind, or a stream for small scale hydro, or a grid connection with an increasing renewable proportion of electrons in there.

People think boats are eco-friendly, but they are only to the extent that you are living in a small space, with a little shrinkage of your electrical and heat consumption associated with that.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Arthur Marshall]

7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I guess your friend has a greater priority for aesthetics than economics, which is very noble. 

 

With the ever increasing price of oil, and the ever decreasing price of panels, it is to me, an obvious thing to do. 

 

I only have 22 years aboard  but the panels only arrived 5 years ago, prior to which, they were prohibitively expensive, for us, anyway. 

 

Any newbie liveaboard is going to benefit, unless they have a marina hookup. 

 

Even non liveaboards can benefit in the long term due to the increased longevity they provide to battery life. 

 

Only those that cruise a lot, or have a land-line will see little benefit, but even they may see some benefit if cruising less in the winter months. 

 

 

Personally I think it's because he can't afford it, but aesthetics are a good excuse! I'd have added it to mine if I could have afforded it even as a light user leisure cruiser. Not worth it now.

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Personally I think it's because he can't afford it, but aesthetics are a good excuse! I'd have added it to mine if I could have afforded it even as a light user leisure cruiser. Not worth it now.

I see where he is coming from, to be honest.  I struggled with the same concern, so decided to compromise by laying them flat, and 'over panelling'. 

 

However, even the small 50 W panel on our sailboat has increased battery life from a couple of years to more like 7 or 8,so it has already paid for itself,and us not too intrusive. 

[agg221]

1 hour ago, alan_fincher said:

 

I don't disagree, (although currently we don't, as it is hard for it not to look very out of place on a 1930s boat.

You've got me wondering now -  our boats are in a mini-marina of (I think) 24 boats. I'll do a survey next time I'm there.

 

I have a similar issue, but our mooring has no power and, being a leisure boater, the boat can sometimes be left for a while. Also, for now, we are electric start only on the engine so whilst the deck design means the bilge pump would only come on in the event of a disaster, the gradual discharge of the batteries will inevitably shorten their life and we then end up lugging a spare starter battery to the boat every time we go, which is not ideal.

 

To this end I am fitting a latest generation CIGS panel. At 115W it is not in liveaboard territory, but it is very unobtrusive, should keep the batteries topped up and give us enough additional power to run the boat in good weather (when we are more likely to be using it) for a day or two if we don't move without having to start the engine., Also, I am attaching it using sheet magnet (the sort sold for van signs). This is to allow removal for maintenance underneath, and to completely reverse the aesthetic should it ever be needed with minimum hassle.

 

Alec

[agg221]

I sometimes find myself musing over the subject of energy audits. Bear in mind this is an armchair exercise with no experience as a liveaboard.

 

The first principle around sustainability is reduce, Starting from the energy consumption of a conventional modern lifestyle, the question is how far can/should/would you want to cut this? Bearing in mind that within living memory many boats had no electricity at all, but that there are certain basics which are now realistically deemed necessary to function in the modern world. I started thinking about this when I stayed on the boat overnight in February as a base for a business meeting. It was dark and snowing. I didn't turn the power on at all and just used the oil lamp and bottles of water, and it was fine, but my family would not go boating if I did that to them!

 

It has been said on this site that the baseline should be standard modern living requirements, but I somewhat disagree - a boat is not a conventional house so the comparison is immediately invalid; therefore you might as well baseline around what you do/do not personally find acceptable.

 

For me, we have an engine with a day tank and gravity feed, so completely mechanical and self-contained (once I get the hand start working). When in good condition it is allegedly fairly easy to hand start, so maybe I don't need a battery for that? We have a cassette toilet which does not need power. The main uses are therefore the lights and pumping water. Oil or gas lighting is nice occasionally but I really wouldn't want to live with it all the time. That means electricity. I think setting up the lights efficiently in the first place would help - the option of individual lights in zones for moving through vs. full lighting to be in that part of the boat would make a difference. Individual reading lamps would be good, in bed and around the seating area. I think a little thought around switching could help. Water is the tricky one. I personally do not find filling the 2 gallon (~10l) fuel day tank at all tedious with a semi-rotary pump and I have toyed with the idea of a fitting a 5l header tank and semi-rotary pump for the water. None of the family will allow me to, but actually we have had several periods where the water wasn't working so we lived off bottles and I have a good idea of how much water we actually need when it is in short supply. Similarly, a pre-filled shower would use no power (and less water), with a manual bilge pump for emptying.

 

The only other fixed power requirement is the fridge, which could be dispensed with for most purposes with an under floor locker. That would just leave the freezer which I could live without (although no ice in the G&T would be a struggle). Power is needed for charging modern electronics - phone, computer etc which then becomes the dominant power consumer. I have not bothered to audit this for us, as we aren't heading this way, but I suspect it would be worryingly high.

 

I can imagine that living aboard does add a lot more power demands for washing etc. but for me the above was an interesting thought experiment in just what power I really do need to enjoy being on the boat, and it's a lot less than I had thought.

 

Alec

[Arthur Marshall]

22 minutes ago, agg221 said:

I have a similar issue, but our mooring has no power and, being a leisure boater, the boat can sometimes be left for a while. Also, for now, we are electric start only on the engine so whilst the deck design means the bilge pump would only come on in the event of a disaster, the gradual discharge of the batteries will inevitably shorten their life and we then end up lugging a spare starter battery to the boat every time we go, which is not ideal.

 

To this end I am fitting a latest generation CIGS panel. At 115W it is not in liveaboard territory, but it is very unobtrusive, should keep the batteries topped up and give us enough additional power to run the boat in good weather (when we are more likely to be using it) for a day or two if we don't move without having to start the engine., Also, I am attaching it using sheet magnet (the sort sold for van signs). This is to allow removal for maintenance underneath, and to completely reverse the aesthetic should it ever be needed with minimum hassle.

 

Alec

Mine happily starts in Spring after being left alone from late October. I may run the engine for an hour or so once or twice in that period but can't imagine it does more than put back what the starter's taken out. The domestic battery lasts about five years and I think I've only had three starter batteries in thirty years.

[sueb]

25 years live aboard. Avoid 240v and use 12v. We did have a gas fridge and no solar. We also cruised regularly after all it was a  boat. As others have said avoid a wind generator. We found one was useless. Try a search through the forum and talk to boaters on the K&A

[rusty69]

23 minutes ago, sueb said:

25 years live aboard. Avoid 240v and use 12v. We did have a gas fridge and no solar. We also cruised regularly after all it was a  boat. As others have said avoid a wind generator. We found one was useless. Try a search through the forum and talk to boaters on the K&A

I am interested why you say 'Avoid 240v and use 12v'. Could you expand on that a bit please? 

 

Is it a safety concern? 

 

Eta 

You say you found one turbine was useless. Does that mean you found more than one to be effective, or a different turbine was better suited?

 

Eta again. 

 

I think I must be reading it wrong. You mean they are useless. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by rusty69

[cheesegas]

8 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I am interested why you say 'Avoid 240v and use 12v'. Could you expand on that a bit please? 

 

Is it a safety concern? 

It’s an efficiency thing. 240v means you need to have the inverter on to convert 12v to 240v, and there’s some losses even when it’s sat idle, from 0.5a - 3a depending on the size and make/model. 
 

Using things like 12v phone chargers rather than running the inverter to power a mains charger is more efficient. 

[rusty69]

Just now, cheesegas said:

It’s an efficiency thing. 240v means you need to have the inverter on to convert 12v to 240v, and there’s some losses even when it’s sat idle, from 0.5a - 3a depending on the size and make/model. 
 

Using things like 12v phone chargers rather than running the inverter to power a mains charger is more efficient. 

OK. Thanks. I realise there is some loss in the inverter due to inefficiency,but generally the merits outweigh the drawbacks. 

 

Still interested in @sueb reason though. Maybe it's the same as yours. 

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I am interested why you say 'Avoid 240v and use 12v'. Could you expand on that a bit please? 

 

Is it a safety concern? 

 

I can't answer for sueb, but there is much less imperative to make mains equipment efficient power wise than 12.24 volt stuff so 12v is likely to be a bit more efficient. For example most 12V motors on pumps etc. use permanent magnets so there is no need to use electricity making them as electromagnets. Using such motors on AC is more difficult. Also to get 230V AC from batteries   needs an inverter that waste electricity just working itself and doing the conversion AND all the time it is turned on it wastes electricity even if it is not powering anything. We usually consider inverters to be 80% efficient, but more expensive ones do better than that.

 A 12V laptop supply or phone charger just uses electricity to make the required voltage once, but if you use a mains power supply it makes the conversion twice, once up to mains voltage and then down again, with wastage every time.

 

If you have a shore line then using mains stuff makes sense, the electricity used is far cheaper and greener than on board generation.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I can't answer for sueb, but there is much less imperative to make mains equipment efficient power wise than 12.24 volt stuff so 12v is likely to be a bit more efficient. For example most 12V motors on pumps etc. use permanent magnets so there is no need to use electricity making them as electromagnets. Using such motors on AC is more difficult. Also to get 230V AC from batteries   needs an inverter that waste electricity just working itself and doing the conversion AND all the time it is turned on it wastes electricity even if it is not powering anything. We usually consider inverters to be 80% efficient, but more expensive ones do better than that.

 A 12V laptop supply or phone charger just uses electricity to make the required voltage once, but if you use a mains power supply it makes the conversion twice, once up to mains voltage and then down again, with wastage every time.

 

If you have a shore line then using mains stuff makes sense, the electricity used is far cheaper and greener than on board generation.

OK thanks. I have re read @sueb post, and probably misinterpreted a lot of it. I blame the wine.

 

I use a mixture of inverter powered mains and 12V (pumps, lights, etc). I suppose if you can balance that so the inverter is in less often, then there is some power saving to be had. 

 

 

[agg221]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Mine happily starts in Spring after being left alone from late October. I may run the engine for an hour or so once or twice in that period but can't imagine it does more than put back what the starter's taken out. The domestic battery lasts about five years and I think I've only had three starter batteries in thirty years.

I suspect you may have a less power-hungry (aka more efficient) starter set-up than us. Ours has a 5" CAV starter which draws some phenomenal current to start the Kelvin. It hasn't got that many starts in it from a freshly charged battery and can't even spin the engine on full compression from cold. In reality, if I did the energy audit properly that is probably not a good thing, but I can convince myself that once the hand start is reinstated it won't really count..!

 

Alec

[dmr]

37 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I can't answer for sueb, but there is much less imperative to make mains equipment efficient power wise than 12.24 volt stuff so 12v is likely to be a bit more efficient. For example most 12V motors on pumps etc. use permanent magnets so there is no need to use electricity making them as electromagnets. Using such motors on AC is more difficult. Also to get 230V AC from batteries   needs an inverter that waste electricity just working itself and doing the conversion AND all the time it is turned on it wastes electricity even if it is not powering anything. We usually consider inverters to be 80% efficient, but more expensive ones do better than that.

 A 12V laptop supply or phone charger just uses electricity to make the required voltage once, but if you use a mains power supply it makes the conversion twice, once up to mains voltage and then down again, with wastage every time.

 

If you have a shore line then using mains stuff makes sense, the electricity used is far cheaper and greener than on board generation.

I would love to see some real figures. An inverter does have a significant quiescent current, but if you have lots of 240v devices then its split between all devices. The IR loss is lower at 240 volts (thats why the grid is high voltage) and also there are significant diode losses in 12 volt LED bulbs.   My intuition is that 12 volts is more efficient but I don't think its always clear cut.  24v would be good but has availability limitations.  48 even better but nothing is available.

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, dmr said:

I would love to see some real figures. An inverter does have a significant quiescent current, but if you have lots of 240v devices then its split between all devices. The IR loss is lower at 240 volts (thats why the grid is high voltage) and also there are significant diode losses in 12 volt LED bulbs.   My intuition is that 12 volts is more efficient but I don't think its always clear cut.  24v would be good but has availability limitations.  48 even better but nothing is available.

I have 24 volts DC and 230 volts AC via  a Mastervolt 1500 True sine inverter, the inverter is on 24/7 but as I said in another post, we cruise every day.