Approach to newbies

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Balloon said:

Maybe an age thing but I am probably younger than many. Maybe a discrimination thing?? I’m certainly not a snowflake. But I won’t stand for unkindness 

 

That is unkindness as you see it I suppose so, it is your perception and your values. I don't try to be unkind but as has so often been pointed out before it is not possible to see any nuances and expressions in written text so your perception of what has been written may well be a misunderstanding. My impression is that you are being very unkind to a number of members who relentlessly try to help people and now and again get the nuances wrong. I think you are getting worked up on behalf of others - is that what is called woke?

[Balloon]

19 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is unkindness as you see it I suppose so, it is your perception and your values. I don't try to be unkind but as has so often been pointed out before it is not possible to see any nuances and expressions in written text so your perception of what has been written may well be a misunderstanding. My impression is that you are being very unkind to a number of members who relentlessly try to help people and now and again get the nuances wrong. I think you are getting worked up on behalf of others - is that what is called woke?

I take your point on board. I wasn’t trying to be unkind and if you see me as “woke” I’m fairly surprised but will give that some thought. Thanks for your feedback and apologies for any offence I’ve caused. 

[Tam & Di]

17 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think you are getting worked up on behalf of others - is that what is called woke?

I get the same impression, but like Tony I am currently boatless, and from previous comment that makes us the real baddies.  😟

 

Tam

[Balloon]

You’re probably right @Tony Brooks   I apologise. The advice of so many does not go without my gratitude. 

I certainly did not mean to be unkind but merely to provoke some consideration. I am sorry for being unkind. 

[ditchcrawler]

But I think the point you originally raised has merit. When I first joined the forum and posted, I decided it wasn't a good idea and buggered off for quite some time. There are probably some who wish I hadn't come back.🥵

[Balloon]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But I think the point you originally raised has merit. When I first joined the forum and posted, I decided it wasn't a good idea and buggered off for quite some time. There are probably some who wish I hadn't come back.🥵

Thank you @ditchcrawler .  I certainly did not wish to cause offence and it seems by raising this issue I have done so. A shame and I feel sorry I had brought it up. There are many posters on here who I admire enormously and whose advice I value; I have offended them and I regret this. 

[Tony Brooks]

18 minutes ago, Balloon said:

You’re probably right @Tony Brooks   I apologise. The advice of so many does not go without my gratitude. 

I certainly did not mean to be unkind but merely to provoke some consideration. I am sorry for being unkind. 

 

No need to apologize for starting a topic that as far as I can see was from the best of intentions. I know I can give a bad impression, but that is very rarely the intention. The point I will continue to try to make is that if a topic is to be successfully concluded it takes two and as the years go by it seems more and more that some/many new posters are unwilling to play the part required to get the result they need. Not that I said "need", not "want", that is where the problems so often start.

[Balloon]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

No need to apologize for starting a topic that as far as I can see was from the best of intentions. I know I can give a bad impression, but that is very rarely the intention. The point I will continue to try to make is that if a topic is to be successfully concluded it takes two and as the years go by it seems more and more that some/many new posters are unwilling to play the part required to get the result they need. Not that I said "need", not "want", that is where the problems so often start.

With that I totally agree. Advice from posters on here should be seen as a bonus if given, and gratefully received. 

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I know I can give a bad impression, but that is very rarely the intention.

Perhaps we aren’t too different!!

 

[Balloon]

32 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

I get the same impression, but like Tony I am currently boatless, and from previous comment that makes us the real baddies.  😟

 

Tam

I am sorry if you feel I have been “woke” that certainly was not my intention. I apologise. 

[Tam & Di]

2 hours ago, Balloon said:

I would expect the French people I spoke to to be patient and kind. (They always are). 

The thread has moved on apace, as they do, and this comment was 2 hours ago. You are remarkably lucky if all French people you've spoken to are patient and kind. They are much the same mix as any other amorphous group, and just as likely to be abrupt or rude as any other. Unless you speak absolutely perfect French you are likely to get someone either turning away because they do not understand, or struggling to get some understanding. This forum is not so different, though it is inevitably easier to be brusque/sarcastic or whatever in writing than it is in a face to face situation.

People have been arguing with you here, but I don't think there is anyone who would expect an apology. You have been putting your point and others have put theirs - don't apologise for it.

 

Tam

 

Your thread crossed mine - stop apologising.

Maybe it's an age thing. 🤷‍♂️😁

Edited August 19, 2022 by Tam & Di

[Balloon]

1 minute ago, Tam & Di said:

The thread has moved on apace, as they do, and this comment was 2 hours ago. You are remarkably lucky if all French people you've spoken to are patient and kind. They are much the same mix as any other amorphous group, and just as likely to be abrupt or rude as any other. Unless you speak absolutely perfect French you are likely to get someone either turning away because they do not understand, or struggling to get some understanding. This forum is not so different, though it is inevitably easier to be brusque/sarcastic or whatever in writing than it is in a face to face situation.

People have been arguing with you here, but I don't think there is anyone who would expect an apology. You have been putting your point and others have put theirs - don't apologise for it.

 

Tam

I think this is my point. People are more likely to be brusque online. And I’ve met some real life people who’ve found that tough, on here. And it saddens me because as a part however small of this community I am complicit in a behaviour that has hurt others. 
 

I am fluent in French having spent several years living there and going to school there as a child so I probably don’t experience the issues you refer to. But I appreciate that there can be challenging individuals everywhere. I’m 

[Tracy D'arth]

I was wrong, its turned into the 3 hour argument.    🤣

 

We could go round in circles over this for ever. The plain fact is that some of us are old, ( very old ) and very experienced. Some new posters assume that they already know the answer to their question or are determined to make their answer fit their desire when the correct answer is different.

That is when I get tetchy, being ancient I will not suffer this kind of behavior.

[Tam & Di]

3 minutes ago, Balloon said:

And it saddens me because as a part however small of this community I am complicit in a behaviour that has hurt others.

I'll try just once more - your concept of hurt is obviously very different. I'm finding the repeated apologies more difficult to deal with, and maybe that's what 'woke' involves.

 

Tam

[rusty69]

Is it group hug time yet?

 

Come on Tracy, you too. You  are well loved, I promise you. 

[PD1964]

34 minutes ago, Balloon said:

Thank you @ditchcrawler .  I certainly did not wish to cause offence and it seems by raising this issue I have done so. A shame and I feel sorry I had brought it up. There are many posters on here who I admire enormously and whose advice I value; I have offended them and I regret this. 

Please don’t  worry about it, as I say it’s a forum and I believe in the real world most on here would be decent people. 
 A lot on here just say things for the sake of saying and the ones you would meet on the canals would help and have a laugh about it. You haven’t really offended anyone, if you have they’ll get over it. Go and have a nice weekend 👍

Edited August 19, 2022 by PD1964

[Balloon]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

That is when I get tetchy, being ancient I will not suffer this kind of behavior.

I do understand your perspective, I think. You are one of the more patient and knowledgeable posters on here and I can understand your frustration at times with the behaviour of some others. 
 

I think the older I get the less I am willing to stand by and watch others being treated poorly. This only happens in some circumstances on here, I’ll admit. Perhaps that does make me woke. If that’s the case I’ll take it. 
 

 

3 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

I'll try just once more - your concept of hurt is obviously very different. I'm finding the repeated apologies more difficult to deal with, and maybe that's what 'woke' involves.

 

Tam

Point taken. 

[The Gravy Boater]

I'll just leave this here... the Internet sucks.

[booke23]

52 minutes ago, Balloon said:

I am sorry if you feel I have been “woke” that certainly was not my intention. I apologise. 

 

You have absolutely nothing to apologise for. The problem is that your original point has been taken personally by some, rather than for what it was.....an accurate observation on the state of the forum.  

 

I think it's highly ironic the way this thread has gone....it illustrates the problem precisely. 

[Arthur Marshall]

"Woke" is one of those words like "political correctness" or "snowflake" which seems to mean anything or nothing. A sort of badge someone wears saying "I'm more caring than you" on one hand or an accusation of being a wimp on the other.

I've not noticed any newbies getting slagged off recently, and I suspect the ones who vanish shortly after arrival just have better things to do than stare at forums all day.  What is odd, though, is how many of them post a question, get plenty of response, but are never heard from again, and certainly rarely thank the responders. It does occasionally make one cynical...

The days of the fearsome rows are long gone, even the political bit is relatively mild, and that can't be held to upset newbies as they can't access it (I think). I went off in a huff last year over things said on there, but here I still am and getting good advice.

Nor can I see that any responses on this thread have been anything but thoughtful and honest. I can't see how anyone could get upset about any of them, unless it's just that the upsettee thinks no-one else should be allowed a different opinion, which, as has been said many times, would make a very dull forum.

 

[Richard10002]

31 minutes ago, booke23 said:

I think it's highly ironic the way this thread has gone....it illustrates the problem precisely. 

 

This ^^^^^^^^

 

 

[blackrose]

I think it's just the nature of the internet. Some people say things in anonymity in a way that they'd never say face to face. 

 

While I agree there's no reason for rudeness (unless perhaps one is responding in kind), it's also up to people posting on a public forum to exhibit a degree of resilience rather than moaning and crying about "bullying" because they got a few responses they didn't like. Offense can often be taken when it was never intended, so it's a two-way street. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by blackrose

[blackrose]

56 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

"Woke" is one of those words like "political correctness" or "snowflake" which seems to mean anything or nothing. A sort of badge someone wears saying "I'm more caring than you" on one hand or an accusation of being a wimp on the other.

 

 

That's true, the term "woke"  was first coined by young left leaning Americans I believe to describe themselves. I personally found those who used term a bit arrogant as though they were saying "We're politically awake and aware and the rest of you aren't." 

 

But it's now come back to bite them in the ass as a term of abuse. Can't say I'm too sympathetic. 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by blackrose

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Balloon said:

a post from @MtB stating “Despite the brutal nature of some of the posts in this thread everyone here has the basic intention to help. Take it on the chin and come back with questions. No matter how basic, banal or advanced your questions are you will gt good and constructive answers. Mostly lol!” 
 

prompted me to start this thread. 

 

 

A very good thread and a subject that has needed broaching for years, imho.

 

To clarify, when I said "take it on the chin" I didn't mean suck it up as in "putting up with bluntness or sharpness is the price you're gonna have to pay to get accurate advice", I meant more along the lines of try to ignore it because there is usually nothing personal meant. 

 

And yes the frustration of having answered in detail the almost exact same question every three weeks for the last decade does lead one to type more curtly than one otherwise might have! Using the search function is always a Good Idea but most newbies totally miss that it even exists. Also until Team Mod installed "elastic search" (whatever that is when it's at home), the search function was bloody dire and hardly worked. 

 

Another problem I perceive is the technical questions get answered by a range of people with an even wider range of expertise, and the newbie OP has no way of knowing who is giving good advice and who is posting carp. The posters who give clear, accurate advice based on knowledge and experience get contradicted by those who know far less and their posts appear to have equal authority. This rather chuffs me off actually because countering the shyte sometimes posted drags a thread orf at a tangent and the OP gets both confused and ignored. I have no solution to offer for this.

 

And.... ~ breathe ~ 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manxmike]

I binned my Facebook account a couple of years ago because I was getting some really nasty messages. Every time I posted something I was getting "trolled". After about a year I restarted a facebook account, adopted a thicker skin and started laughing at some of the more repulsive responses I received to my innocent (?) posts. It may not have stopped the idiots, but I took a different viewpoint of them, often responding in a somewhat sarcastic manner.

Hopefully I haven't carried that over to this forum, and sometimes I manage to offer useful comments. I am by no means an "expert", but I do have many years of canal experience, often in older (not classic) boats with older (again, not classic) engines. I respond from my own experiences, which I believe, is what most of the "older" members on here do.

Maybe a section titled "Newbies Questions" might help?

[Arthur Marshall]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

A very good thread and a subject that has needed broaching for years, imho.

 

To clarify, when I said "take it on the chin" I didn't mean suck it up as in "putting up with bluntness or sharpness is the price you're gonna have to pay to get accurate advice", I meant more along the lines of try to ignore it because there is usually nothing personal meant. 

 

And yes the frustration of having answered in detail the almost exact same question every three weeks for the last decade does lead one to type more curtly than one otherwise might have! Using the search function is always a Good Idea but most newbies totally miss that it even exists. Also until Team Mod installed "elastic search" (whatever that is when it's at home), the search function was bloody dire and hardly worked. 

 

Another problem I perceive is the technical questions get answered by a range of people with an even wider range of expertise, and the newbie OP has no way of knowing who is giving good advice and who is posting carp. The posters who give clear, accurate advice based on knowledge and experience get contradicted by those who know far less and their posts appear to have equal authority. This rather chuffs me off actually because countering the shyte sometimes posted drags a thread orf at a tangent and the OP gets both confused and ignored. I have no solution to offer for this.

 

And.... ~ breathe ~ 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem of differentiating between advice being given by experts and by idiots is an unsolvable internet problem. Working out which is which takes proper research, which is not generally what posters want, which is easy answers. And why, when they get grumpy when asked for more detail (like what gearbox or engine) they do tend to get short thrift.