Approach to newbies

[The Gravy Boater]

Forums are an impersonal and blunt tool that have limited application.  Text is adequate for conveying instructions but you're not going to get people playing nice over a period of time with text because they have no relationship.  You could add add a discord for those who want to use it... that would probably improve relations enormously.

[BlueStringPudding]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

Needs a TL;DR imo. 

 

 

Couldn't give a flying proverbial who reads my whole post, or just one sentence, or none at all. It's a forum post of my opinion and experience, not a Masters dissertation with a word count.

 

So you'll hopefully accept in the manner it's intended, my disregard for your suggestion / alleged joke. (Verbose enough for you? I could just say: "Meh, go edit one of the newbie-bulliers instead. They need it," but why should I?) 😉

[MrsM]

29 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

I would tend to agree, although there is definitely a balance to be struck. I have been on Facebook groups that are over moderated which is equally as bad......where the slightest sign of arguing gets an entire post removed. However I think the moderation here is slightly too far in the other direction.

 

I was a member of a car forum a few years back and the moderation was spot on there....any nastyness would get your post edited by the mods, so the basic information would still be there for future readers, but this happened rarely as the culture of the forum was to not be nasty as you knew your post would be removed or edited. 

But then you are getting into the ethical minefield of censorship and placing an onerous responsibility on the mods.  Worst cases of potential unpleasantness often get ironed out as the threads develop :- OP realises that the contributor is trying to help and learns not to take matters too personally.  A good example of possible meaness is some of the posts directed at LadyG (as mentioned in another thread). She more than many has the right to go off in a great big huff but instead she takes on board the help she is offered and is an active contributor herself - being quick to acknowledge when her advice might not be entirely accurate. I so admire that attitude - you can try knock someone down but they bounce back with grace and humour. I value the forum for all its characters, teachers and pupils.

Edited August 19, 2022 by MrsM

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, sueb said:

Thank you Balloon for bringing this up,  you definitely have nothing to apologise about.  Unfortunately there are some on the forum who seem to get their kicks by point scoring, insulting others and insisting on having the last word. Women have a hard time here. The political section has now become unreadable and would certainly put off new members. 

But new members don't see the political ghetto, and nor does anyone else if they don't want to. If you jump into a swamp, you can't complain if it's swampy! Normal people don't care much about politics, which is why normal people don't post there.

Compared to the early Dunkley days, everyone on here is a pussycat. Even when it gets heated it's more childish than bullying. Often, it's just misfiring jokes or differing senses of humour. Compared to most of social media, we are almost insufferably polite, and compared to a factory floor...

I was a newbie on here, read it for a long time before asking anything. I do think it's a huge exaggeration to call it unwelcoming or unpleasant.

[Hudds Lad]

30 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

There is a real challenge, in that so much knowledge is crammed into the heads of so few people, whose help is called upon again and again.

I just need to figure out a way of transferring all the knowledge from Tony and Tracy's brains into mine.

 

If I recall my Frankenstinian biology correctly, all I need to do is insert very sharp 6 inch electrodes into their heads, and connect them to my own skull, with about 10,000 volts to gee things up a bit.

I'm up for it.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

Thats so last century, you need to try cranial screwtop ziplock brain surgery, as invented by Dr Hfuhruhurr  (bit niche TBH)

 

@The Gravy Boater i’ll be picking your brains when i can persuade the better half that i do indeed need either a trebuchet or ballista mounted on the boat  

[Midnight]

I just don't understand the issue here. This forum is quite gentle compared to Thunderboat. Occasionally a newbie asks a question but gives vague details then gets upset when asked to clarify or even worse asks for help then disappears. The advice here is first class. Tony Brookes should be knighted. Mods don't often need to get involved because there are plenty of examples of members jumping in to defend those on the sharp end of an aggressive post. As for the politics stuff  it’s as Arthur mentioned above. I never bother because  I'm not interested in crossing swords over stuff I have no control over.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Midnight

[Tony1]

4 minutes ago, Hudds Lad said:

Thats so last century, you need to try cranial screwtop ziplock brain surgery, as invented by Dr Hfuhruhurr  (bit niche TBH)

 

@The Gravy Boater i’ll be picking your brains when i can persuade the better half that i do indeed need either a trebuchet or ballista mounted on the boat  

 

For me they're both excellent, and its a tough call which one I like better, but I reckon Young Frankenstein pips The Man with Two Brains.

 

'Put the candle back' still makes me laugh every time I see it.

 

[George and Dragon]

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

That is the whole point, overly simple questions, either through insufficient knowledge or deliberately can not be answered in any meaningful way without getting more information out of the questioner. When that info is not forthcoming it seems that we are now not allowed to get a bit miffed and show it. In respect of getting a bit miffed have a look at the topic in the BMC section that got take off track by  Lister owner. I think they were running their question in two other people's threads and seemed to keep asking questions that is had answered a few posts previously rather than asking for clarification. I get miffed if it seems my time and knowledge is being abused.

I've not yet reached the end of the thread so this may be a redundant comment but it seems to me that there's space for more stuff like the battery primer that @WotEver put together.

I think most established boaters know a bit about battery maintenance and routine servicing and probably something fairly basic about painting and blacking. After that it's hard to say because we all have our own areas of interest and one person may know loads about PV and/or lithium batteries and the next knows about old engines whereas someone else knows about instant water heaters. 

There are a few, such as yourself, whose knowledge and experience is much deeper and to some extent that's apparent when you look at post count and your website is an invaluable resource but sadly many newbies won't recognise all this: they have a problem which they don't understand and, like a child who can't swim that's been thrown into a swimming pool, they are thrashing around and making it difficult for anyone to rescue them.

 

[George and Dragon]

4 hours ago, The Gravy Boater said:

I'll just leave this here... the Internet sucks.

Without meaning to antagonise or criticise you shouldn't 55% be more than half?

[TheBiscuits]

6 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Some new posters assume that they already know the answer to their question or are determined to make their answer fit their desire when the correct answer is different.

That is when I get tetchy, being ancient I will not suffer this kind of behavior.

 

Nah, you can be tetchy without any new posters ... it's the one benefit of age that you can sometimes get away with it! 😁

[TheBiscuits]

2 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

 

@The Gravy Boater i’ll be picking your brains when i can persuade the better half that i do indeed need either a trebuchet or ballista mounted on the boat  

 

A ballista is more likely to fit under bridges ....

 

@Sea Dog has torpedo tubes which avoid the air draught issue entirely!

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by TheBiscuits
clarity

[Jon57]

7 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

There is a real challenge, in that so much knowledge is crammed into the heads of so few people, whose help is called upon again and again.

I just need to figure out a way of transferring all the knowledge from Tony and Tracy's brains into mine.

 

If I recall my Frankenstinian biology correctly, all I need to do is insert very sharp 6 inch electrodes into their heads, and connect them to my own skull, with about 10,000 volts to gee things up a bit.

I'm up for it.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

Get ready for the incoming reply’s from the more knowledgeable peeps on this form with a cut and paste reply.🤪🤪

[The Gravy Boater]

6 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

Without meaning to antagonise or criticise you shouldn't 55% be more than half?

Stock picture, but well spotted. Maybe body language is more important than it APPEARS 😜

[davidg]

9 hours ago, Hudds Lad said:

Thats so last century, you need to try cranial screwtop ziplock brain surgery, as invented by Dr Hfuhruhurr  (bit niche TBH)

Well I know where you're coming from.

Maybe it's a Golcar thing. 😊

[mrsmelly]

10 hours ago, MtB said:

 

 

FTFY!

 

 

Ok, Ok I will bite. What the hell is Face book? The problem with having no 12 year olds living with us is always the same. Obviously we do not go anywhere near stupid apps? called Twatter? Instantcrap or farcebook et al so spose I will have to ask a grand sprog lol. When we moved aboard full time living in 1989 there was no such thing as tinternet, mobile fones were owned by about 1 in 100 people iirc, we had one lol. We had this stupid idea to find out about boats and went to other pubs near the canal and TALKED TO REAL people  imagine that these days lol. We went to a few boatyards and talked to real people. Last year I downgraded to living in a house and find even some of the grown ups are on farcebook, what a strange existance.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Ok, Ok I will bite. What the hell is Face book? The problem with having no 12 year olds living with us is always the same. Obviously we do not go anywhere near stupid apps? called Twatter? Instantcrap or farcebook et al so spose I will have to ask a grand sprog lol. When we moved aboard full time living in 1989 there was no such thing as tinternet, mobile fones were owned by about 1 in 100 people iirc, we had one lol. We had this stupid idea to find out about boats and went to other pubs near the canal and TALKED TO REAL people  imagine that these days lol. We went to a few boatyards and talked to real people. Last year I downgraded to living in a house and find even some of the grown ups are on farcebook, what a strange existance.

 

 

Dear Tim, you do tend towards looking a bit of a goon with posts like this! It's a bit like complaining that the royal Mail is rubbish because you get letters you don't like. Or an old man pointlessly shouting and yelling at the pigeons or seagulls. I know you're brighter than that but calling Facebook "farcebook" and Instagram ""Instantcrap" isn't a good look. Just telling you in (hopefully) the nicest possible way  

 

You'll be telling us you think Boris is a decent and honest politician next!! 

 

 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

Dear Tim, you do tend towards looking a bit of a goon with posts like this! It's a bit like complaining that the royal Mail is rubbish because you get letters you don't like. Or an old man pointlessly shouting and yelling at the pigeons or seagulls. I know you're brighter than that but calling Facebook "farcebook" and Instagram ""Instantcrap" isn't a good look. Just telling you in (hopefully) the nicest possible way  

 

You'll be telling us you think Boris is a decent and honest politician next!! 

 

 

Boris is great. I did notice when I bought some decking rope, on line, last week that when I paid for next day delivery, it actualy arrived sixteen hours after I placed the order and was delivered by good old Royal mail. Had the vendor used such as Herpes I reckon I would still be waiting for it. I avoid ever using herpes as in the past they have been absoloooooooootely crap. I shall leave Farcebook to the grandkids 

[BilgePump]

Only just read the OP and most replies, along with the battery thread, but will add my take.

 

Sometimes, it may be kinder for someone to post along the lines of 'We don't want to burst your bubble but the realities are XYZ, your plan will cause you problems if you don't know about ABC' etc instead of  'Don't be so stupid, you know nothing'. However, there's no way that they can tell someone that their half-baked life choice is going to be perfectly plain sailing or tell another that it doesn't require the owner to learn about their boat and how it works.

 

Too often the gulf between the knowledge of the experienced member and the lack of it in the newcomer can mean that even the words being used are incomprehensible to the newcomer. Sadly for them, some important things like engines, gas, electricity etc work to well defined standards and terminology and fundamental basics like physics. I'm guessing that it's too easy, when for the tenth time someone asking the original question doesn't respond with the really needed info when asked to clarify something, that the experienced hand gets frustrated when they are happy to offer detailed replies. Also guessing that the original newbie can be getting overwhelmed with the entire learning curve for systems that are alien to those coming from a grid-connected house. The slack can be cut both ways.

 

Any newcomer who takes the good advice of those with decades of specific knowledge and attempts to gain a greater understanding should be commended and hopefully have an enjoyable and fulfilling boating life (how the battery thread seemed to be going). Those that reject everything, don't just want to reinvent the wheel but want to learn nowt, defy nature, licensing rules and even the laws of physics with a 20w panel and electric cooker (sure I remember threads like those), those kind of people will probably have a short and expensive, but educational, lesson in boat ownership and life afloat.

 

As for the older male dominated side of the conversation, as someone in that category, it does need calling out. Remember, grandad, that young lady may have a mech eng degree, fantastic welding skills, be a qualified spark or a magician with steam engines. Calling out bad advice is fine, attaching criticism to the recipient's sex/gender/age etc is wrong. Just learn to cut it out and be a bit more thoughtful with replies.

 

The forum really needs to attract a wider user base. Not everyone who enjoys the canals can afford a good narrowboat, not everyone wants a boat.  The site is canalworld, not steel hulled boat owners' club. GRP owners are thin on the ground here as active contributors and kayakers, fisherfolks and general towpath enthusiasts have even less to come here for.

 

I don't go in the politics section. There are more important things to do in life than argue with people when I would rather talk to them about a common boating interest.

 

The fact that lots of ex boat-owners choose to continue to contribute suggests that they both enjoy the conversation and believe that the forum is a thing of worth. I agree with that. No ads plastering this place, no subs, it runs on a shoestring supported by donations, tech and admin volunteers doing a great unpaid job and mods seeming to keep things from becoming complete mayhem.

 

This place is a mine of information for boat owners new and old, and a lot of experience still being passed on through quality posts. Long may it continue and thanks to those who do try to help with their knowledge. Like a decent pub, the broad cross section of people here seem to be decent types united by a common interest in the waterways. 

 

The pub's open.

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, BilgePump said:

Too often the gulf between the knowledge of the experienced member and the lack of it in the newcomer can mean that even the words being used are incomprehensible to the newcomer.

 

I agree with this bit, but just how is anyone supposed to pitch advice at the correct level if the questioner, for whatever reason, declines to hold a conversation. The "lower" the level required usually means far more words are needed, and the responder runs the risk of being accused of teaching grandma etc. or talking down to people. Surely if a questioner does not understand the simplest thing to do is to say what you don't understand and ask for clarification. On a face to face course I used to spend time explaining that if someone does not understand I is my fault, and also I would stop frequently to invite questions. I was also happy to accept questions while in full flow but sometimes had to decline to answer for a short while. None of that is possible on a forum though.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[BilgePump]

8 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I agree with this bit, but just how is anyone supposed to pitch advice at the correct level if the questioner, for whatever reason, declines to hold a conversation. The "lower" the level required usually means far more words are needed, and the responder runs the risk of being accused of teaching grandma etc. or talking down to people. Surely if a questioner does not understand the simplest thing to do is to say what you don't understand and ask for clarification. On a face to face course I used to spend time explaining that if someone does not understand I is my fault, and also I would stop frequently to invite questions. I was also happy to accept questions while in full flow but sometimes had to decline to answer for a short while. None of that is possible on a forum though.

That's it. There has to be a basic technical literacy level that the questioner should be prepared to learn, and may still have to ask questions about in a dialogue. In the battery thread the OP seemed to be aware of their lack of understanding but did try to post some replies and interact but like you say a forum it has none of the immediacy and directness of face-to-face help. Hopefully they can get to grips with their power use through the info in that thread and get help here with any future issues. People like yourself have forgotten more than some of us can hope to ever know, and your advice is invaluable, but please remember that there are some adults (including myself) who are pretty clueless when it comes to engines, 12v systems etc. 

[Balloon]

1 hour ago, BilgePump said:

Remember, grandad, that young lady may have a mech eng degree, fantastic welding skills, be a qualified spark or a magician with steam engines. Calling out bad advice is fine, attaching criticism to the recipient's sex/gender/age etc is wrong. Just learn to cut it out and be a bit more thoughtful with replies.

👏

[Tracy D'arth]

""" Remember, grandad, that young lady may have a mech eng degree, fantastic welding skills, be a qualified spark or a magician with steam engines. """

 

 

Story of my life. Some men just cannot accept it.

[Balloon]

9 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

""" Remember, grandad, that young lady may have a mech eng degree, fantastic welding skills, be a qualified spark or a magician with steam engines. """

 

 

Story of my life. Some men just cannot accept it.

They really really can’t, can they? 

[Balloon]

12 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

""" Remember, grandad, that young lady may have a mech eng degree, fantastic welding skills, be a qualified spark or a magician with steam engines. """

 

 

Story of my life. Some men just cannot accept it.

Reminds me of an old hand me down Ladybird book from the 70s my daughter was given, about scuba diving. It contained a page with an image of a woman diving, with the caption “even ladies can dive”

 

some men are very hurt by the concept that EVEN a mere woman could manage their special man tasks 

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Balloon said:

They really really can’t, can they? 

 

Bit late now but it would do some men good to lock horns with the doughty lasses who did all sorts of "mens" jobs in WW2. I may well have changed their thoughts about how capable women are. FWIW I was told by someone who worked there that when CAV were building injectors by selective assembly they would not employ men on the needle and nozzle line because most simply never had the deftness of touch to feel the perfect fit. (Bet they did not pay them a premium though!)