Approach to newbies

[sueb]

Thank you Balloon for bringing this up,  you definitely have nothing to apologise about.  Unfortunately there are some on the forum who seem to get their kicks by point scoring, insulting others and insisting on having the last word. Women have a hard time here. The political section has now become unreadable and would certainly put off new members. 

[haggis]

19 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

The problem of differentiating between advice being given by experts and by idiots is an unsolvable internet problem. Working out which is which takes proper research, which is not generally what posters want, which is easy answers. And why, when they get grumpy when asked for more detail (like what gearbox or engine) they do tend to get short thrift.

 

I wonder if folk answering new folk asking questions said what their experience of the subject is  would help new folk work out whose reply to rely on.  It could be done by the responder having a signature line giving a brief resumee. A lot of extra work perhaps for those who give their time so generously to help others  but it might help newbies. 

Just a thought.

I am always amazed and in awe of the detailed technical replies which are given on here and feel it must be frustrating when a request for more info is ignored.

 

Well done guys!

 

haggis

[The Gravy Boater]

I think maybe the way to judge this forum is to look at the instances where a boater is in genuine immediate need or even in peril and how those with experience here then rally around and would trip over each other to help.  The petty bickering between certain characters is just amusing after you have been here for a while.  I understand how that might be intimidating for new folks, though.

[BlueStringPudding]

5 hours ago, Balloon said:

I’ve been floating (pun not intended!) around this forum for years now. 
 

a post from @MtB stating “Despite the brutal nature of some of the posts in this thread everyone here has the basic intention to help. Take it on the chin and come back with questions. No matter how basic, banal or advanced your questions are you will gt good and constructive answers. Mostly lol!” 
 

prompted me to start this thread. 
 

I’ve received an invaluable amount of very knowledgeable information from this forum, both from passive reading and active posting. There are some incredibly knowledgeable members. I’ve also seen some incredibly frustrating newbies posting limited information and expecting endless help, as well as being rude. 
 

however, I do wonder why we’re accepting that for anyone new on this forum one must accept an element of unkindness to access any sort of help. We’ve all been new to this once. And I’m pretty sure if anyone actually came up to anyone on this forum and asked a question or for some advice, in real life, posters would be far more patient. So why is it acceptable to destroy posters on here with unkindness and intolerance?

 

I say this because I’ve had the good fortune to meet in real life a number of posters from this forum, and several of these have been left enormously upset by the postings of some. I think some members forget these are real, fallible, flawed humans just like the rest of us. 
 

I’m  interested to hear opinions on this. I completely understand some posters’ frustration at being taken advantage of for their substantial professional or amateur expertise. 
 

Perhaps there’s a way to work towards an increased kindness, which might in its own way perpetuate the success of this community for more than a mere handful of “acceptable” posters? 

 

 

I totally agree, Balloon. I rarely recommend the forum to newbies anymore., I'm am sad to say. I joined in  2006. I hate hearing myself say to people not to take it personally when (not if) one or two grumpy people on CWDF come across as arrogant, dismissive or unkind. It's a handful of people, but of course they're the most vocal, and it makes the whole forum seem unapproachable. I don't understand why anyone would want to give advice to a newbie by cutting them down cruelly. That's not advising, sometimes it seems like bullying, or "you're not in my club" belittling. Utterly unhelpful, and makes all boaters seem like arseh*les.  

 

I think that If the forum had been like that when I first researched boat-buying, and i frequently came here to ask questions about everything from technical problems to boating etiquette, I would have gained the impression that a lot of canal boaters must be unpleasant people, must hate outsiders, and act superior. I could easily have decided not to want to be part of all that pomposity, not to buy a boat, and not to become part of the canal boating community. Fortunately, 15 years ago this forum felt much more welcoming and was much more representative of the open, friendly attitude of most people on the canals.  And i soon met many of the old skool forum contributors in real life on my travels and at banters, and have remained firm friends ever since. In fact, i actively wanted to meet the new friends I had made online at CWDF. I wonder how many newbies don't get to experience that, because  of dismissive or patronising responses to their first posts making them think: "what a bunch of tw*t's," turn around and never come back. 

 

When the forum became more  politicised and so comparatively less boaty a few years ago,  there was a lot of online unpleasantness and bullying publicly and in private across here. We lost a lot of previous members (especially women) who added some balance, and several of those who remained on the books, just stopped posting. (I didn't post on the forum for a long, long time. It's still a fairly rare thing for me these days).  Those people will never come back. They've moved to Facebook, in all sorts of groups, fracturing the rather special CWDF mixing-pot community that once it was. And CWDF has a negative and unapproachable reputation among some Facebook groups, which is a shame. We made our bed, now we lay in it. 

 

But I do think it does this place good when someone relatively new holds a mirror up to our faults, and reminds us that we can do better for the next generation of boaters, as well as for our existing canal friends and colleagues. (Nice one, Balloon) 👏

Let's think before we speak unkindly on someone's post, especially to newbies going out on a limb to try and educate themselves. It is possible to give honest advice while still being supportive; to at least sign-post specifically to where they can find out what they need to know if it seems like a naive question; and to resist the urge to act like a keyboard warrior or, to put it plainly: to not be a scornful nobhead. 🤔

 

[Balloon]

14 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

I totally agree, Balloon. I rarely recommend the forum to newbies anymore., I'm am sad to say. I joined in  2006. I hate hearing myself say to people not to take it personally when (not if) one or two grumpy people on CWDF come across as arrogant, dismissive or unkind. It's a handful of people, but of course they're the most vocal, and it makes the whole forum seem unapproachable. I don't understand why anyone would want to give advice to a newbie by cutting them down cruelly. That's not advising, sometimes it seems like bullying, or "you're not in my club" belittling. Utterly unhelpful, and makes all boaters seem like arseh*les.  

 

I think that If the forum had been like that when I first researched boat-buying, and i frequently came here to ask questions about everything from technical problems to boating etiquette, I would have gained the impression that a lot of canal boaters must be unpleasant people, must hate outsiders, and act superior. I could easily have decided not to want to be part of all that pomposity, not to buy a boat, and not to become part of the canal boating community. Fortunately, 15 years ago this forum felt much more welcoming and was much more representative of the open, friendly attitude of most people on the canals.  And i soon met many of the old skool forum contributors in real life on my travels and at banters, and have remained firm friends ever since. In fact, i actively wanted to meet the new friends I had made online at CWDF. I wonder how many newbies don't get to experience that, because  of dismissive or patronising responses to their first posts making them think: "what a bunch of tw*t's," turn around and never come back. 

 

When the forum became more  politicised and so comparatively less boaty a few years ago,  there was a lot of online unpleasantness and bullying publicly and in private across here. We lost a lot of previous members (especially women) who added some balance, and several of those who remained on the books, just stopped posting. (I didn't post on the forum for a long, long time. It's still a fairly rare thing for me these days).  Those people will never come back. They've moved to Facebook, in all sorts of groups, fracturing the rather special CWDF mixing-pot community that once it was. And CWDF has a negative and unapproachable reputation among some Facebook groups, which is a shame. We made our bed, now we lay in it. 

 

But I do think it does this place good when someone relatively new holds a mirror up to our faults, and reminds us that we can do better for the next generation of boaters, as well as for our existing canal friends and colleagues. (Nice one, Balloon) 👏

Let's think before we speak unkindly on someone's post, especially to newbies going out on a limb to try and educate themselves. It is possible to give honest advice while still being supportive; to at least sign-post specifically to where they can find out what they need to know if it seems like a naive question; and to resist the urge to act like a keyboard warrior or, to put it plainly: to not be a scornful nobhead. 🤔

 

Oh my gosh, if I could give you multiple greenies I would! Thanks. This, a million times over. 

[rusty69]

20 minutes ago, BlueStringPudding said:

 

I totally agree, Balloon. I rarely recommend the forum to newbies anymore., I'm am sad to say. I joined in  2006. I hate hearing myself say to people not to take it personally when (not if) one or two grumpy people on CWDF come across as arrogant, dismissive or unkind. It's a handful of people, but of course they're the most vocal, and it makes the whole forum seem unapproachable. I don't understand why anyone would want to give advice to a newbie by cutting them down cruelly. That's not advising, sometimes it seems like bullying, or "you're not in my club" belittling. Utterly unhelpful, and makes all boaters seem like arseh*les.  

 

I think that If the forum had been like that when I first researched boat-buying, and i frequently came here to ask questions about everything from technical problems to boating etiquette, I would have gained the impression that a lot of canal boaters must be unpleasant people, must hate outsiders, and act superior. I could easily have decided not to want to be part of all that pomposity, not to buy a boat, and not to become part of the canal boating community. Fortunately, 15 years ago this forum felt much more welcoming and was much more representative of the open, friendly attitude of most people on the canals.  And i soon met many of the old skool forum contributors in real life on my travels and at banters, and have remained firm friends ever since. In fact, i actively wanted to meet the new friends I had made online at CWDF. I wonder how many newbies don't get to experience that, because  of dismissive or patronising responses to their first posts making them think: "what a bunch of tw*t's," turn around and never come back. 

 

When the forum became more  politicised and so comparatively less boaty a few years ago,  there was a lot of online unpleasantness and bullying publicly and in private across here. We lost a lot of previous members (especially women) who added some balance, and several of those who remained on the books, just stopped posting. (I didn't post on the forum for a long, long time. It's still a fairly rare thing for me these days).  Those people will never come back. They've moved to Facebook, in all sorts of groups, fracturing the rather special CWDF mixing-pot community that once it was. And CWDF has a negative and unapproachable reputation among some Facebook groups, which is a shame. We made our bed, now we lay in it. 

 

But I do think it does this place good when someone relatively new holds a mirror up to our faults, and reminds us that we can do better for the next generation of boaters, as well as for our existing canal friends and colleagues. (Nice one, Balloon) 👏

Let's think before we speak unkindly on someone's post, especially to newbies going out on a limb to try and educate themselves. It is possible to give honest advice while still being supportive; to at least sign-post specifically to where they can find out what they need to know if it seems like a naive question; and to resist the urge to act like a keyboard warrior or, to put it plainly: to not be a scornful nobhead. 🤔

 

Needs a TL;DR imo. 

 

What? It was a joke. Jeez. 

 

We got our boat in 1999,and probably wouldn't have bothered had Internet forums been around at the time. 

 

We were lucky to buy in ignorance and learn through many mistakes before discovering this place. 

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Needs a TL;DR imo. 

 

What? It was a joke. Jeez. 

 

We got our boat in 1999,and probably wouldn't have bothered had Internet forums been around at the time. 

 

We were lucky to buy in ignorance and learn through many mistakes before discovering this place. 

I'm sure it wasn't directly personally, funnily enough I did the same, bought the boat and joined the forum 2 or 3 years later, many silly mistakes were made

[Balloon]

4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Needs a TL;DR imo. 

 

What? It was a joke. Jeez. 

 

We got our boat in 1999,and probably wouldn't have bothered had Internet forums been around at the time. 

 

We were lucky to buy in ignorance and learn through many mistakes before discovering this place. 

My TL;DR of @BlueStringPudding‘s post:

 

Don’t be a dick  

[Tam & Di]

36 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Needs a TL;DR imo.

 Well that points up one difference - what hell does TL;DR mean? Happens I do know now, but I had to go to Google to find out, and I ordinarily would simply just not bother. People use to write in English in my good old days, but it's presumably how today's people speak (text) to each other. Perhaps that was the point of introducing it here, but I wouldn't think it's well enough known if the writer wishes to communicate widely.

 

Tam

[MtB]

1 hour ago, manxmike said:

Maybe a section titled "Newbies Questions" might help?

 

 

An EXCELLENT idea. Duly greenied. 

 

 

[MrsM]

7 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

 Well that points up one difference - what hell does TL;DR mean? Happens I do know now, but I had to go to Google to find out, and I ordinarily would simply just not bother. People use to write in English in my good old days, but it's presumably how today's people speak (text) to each other. Perhaps that was the point of introducing it here, but I wouldn't think it's well enough known if the writer wishes to communicate widely.

 

Tam

What does it mean (to save the rest of us having to Google it too)? 🤔

[Chris John]

I think the forum is very poorly moderated. Strange how one of the worse for what I’ll cause abuse hasn’t commented. 

[Rob-M]

4 minutes ago, MrsM said:

What does it mean (to save the rest of us having to Google it too)? 🤔

Too long, didn't read.

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, MrsM said:

What does it mean (to save the rest of us having to Google it too)? 🤔

 

 

I just did, consumed by curiosity! 

 

"TL;DR or tl;dr, short for "too long; didn't read", is internet slang to say that some text being replied to has been ignored because of its length. It is also used to introduce a summary of an online post or news article. The phrase dates back to at least 2002, and was added to the Oxford Dictionaries Online in 2013."

 

Wikipedia

 

 

53 minutes ago, Balloon said:

My TL;DR of @BlueStringPudding‘s post:

 

Don’t be a dick  

 

 

Yes a friend of mine who is a mod of another forum says their own verbose forum rules can be easily preçised into "Don't be a dick" 

 

 

[The Gravy Boater]

5 minutes ago, Chris John said:

I think the forum is very poorly moderated. Strange how one of the worse for what I’ll cause abuse hasn’t commented. 

Not my experience but there is a difference between moderation and organisation.  The one is reactive, the other proactive.

[MtB]

8 minutes ago, Chris John said:

I think the forum is very poorly moderated. Strange how one of the worse for what I’ll cause abuse hasn’t commented. 

 

 

Moderation here may be grim but ten years ago, mods were not seen from one month to the next. All hell would break loose once in a while and nothing would be done about it. 

 

 

[MrsM]

I am in my 3rd summer as a boater (so still very new) and I agree that the nature of exchanges on the forum can be a bit off-putting at first. However I also agree that the quality of advice is second to none and the tone generally quickly becomes more amusing than unpleasant. I always recommend the forum to new boaters I meet, with a caveat not to be put off by the bickering. The opportunity to learn from experienced and knowledgeable individuals more than makes up for it in my opinion. People can be just as nasty to each other , if not more so, on the one FB narrowboat group I sometimes check in to.

Edited August 19, 2022 by MrsM

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I am in my 3rd summer as a boater (so still very new) and I agree that the nature of exchanges on the forum can be a bit off-putting at first. However I also agree that the quality of advice is second to none and the tone generally quickly becomes more amusing than unpleasant. I always recommend the forum to new boaters I meet, with a caveat not to be put off by the bickering. The opportunity to learn from experienced and knowledgeable individuals more than makes up for it in my opinion. People can be just as nasty to each other , if not more so, on the one FB narrowboat group I sometimes check in to.

 

 

The thing I struggle with on FB is the way they don't have threads. All questions seem to be lumped in to one massive long single thread, with just a few answers (but not all of them) displayed to any given question.

[MrsM]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

The thing I struggle with on FB is the way they don't have threads. All questions seem to be lumped in to one massive long single thread, with just a few answers (but not all of them) displayed to any given question.

Absolutely! Same with WhatsApp - just a steam of verbal diarrhoea! 

[The Gravy Boater]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

The thing I struggle with on FB is the way they don't have threads. All questions seem to be lumped in to one massive long single thread, with just a few answers (but not all of them) displayed to any given question.

It is quaint how FB is a thing in the narrowboating community.  Just do not touch it with a barge pole... and you have no excuses, for we all have one.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, The Gravy Boater said:

It is quaint how FB is a thing in the narrowboating community.  Just do not touch it with a barge pole long shaft... and you have no excuses, for we all have one.

 

 

FTFY!

 

 

[Ianws]

6 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Absolutely! Same with WhatsApp - just a steam of verbal diarrhoea! 

I only use WhatsApp for direct family, very close friends and trades people working for us. That works fine. 

[The Gravy Boater]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

 

FTFY!

 

 

Had to look up your text-speak, but okay   As a student of medieval arms and armour I can see the advantage of having a variety of polearms onboard.

[Tony1]

6 hours ago, booke23 said:

 

I totally agree, some of these long standing members should be Knighted for services to inland waterways. But we need new members to stick around so there is a chance they could be long standing valuable members. The problem is this is not happening.....the question is how do we remedy it? 

 

There is a real challenge, in that so much knowledge is crammed into the heads of so few people, whose help is called upon again and again.

I just need to figure out a way of transferring all the knowledge from Tony and Tracy's brains into mine.

 

If I recall my Frankenstinian biology correctly, all I need to do is insert very sharp 6 inch electrodes into their heads, and connect them to my own skull, with about 10,000 volts to gee things up a bit.

I'm up for it.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Tony1

[booke23]

31 minutes ago, Chris John said:

I think the forum is very poorly moderated. Strange how one of the worse for what I’ll cause abuse hasn’t commented. 

 

I would tend to agree, although there is definitely a balance to be struck. I have been on Facebook groups that are over moderated which is equally as bad......where the slightest sign of arguing gets an entire post removed. However I think the moderation here is slightly too far in the other direction.

 

I was a member of a car forum a few years back and the moderation was spot on there....any nastyness would get your post edited by the mods, so the basic information would still be there for future readers, but this happened rarely as the culture of the forum was to not be nasty as you knew your post would be removed or edited.