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Approach to newbies


Balloon

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8 minutes ago, Tam & Di said:

Happens in all walks of life. Here's comment from a café owner in Corsica (in case any don't know, 's.v.p.' = 'please', and 'bonjour' = 'good morning').      😁

 

Tam

 

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Agree, and as I mentioned in my initial post there is no excuse for rudeness in any poster. But I do think on here there is a kind of culture that until you have justified yourself as competent you will be treated as incompetent and worthy of scorn. 

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I don't think it's too bad on here to be honest.

Quite a few newbies take offence because they don't understand that their boat is not like any other, and when questioned further rather than having their aparently simple question answered in one sentence they find they are being asked more questions.

It's a bit like the day you went to France with your carefully rehearsed french phrase, but the local replies with a fast response, it's just too much!

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As an example, if someone came up to you near a lock and asked for advice on how to moor their boat. You’d probably explain kindly that mooring on the lock landing wasn’t ok, and maybe show them how to use pins/armco to moor. If you had nothing better to do you might even hold in their centre line while they secured their boat. 
 

If someone posted similar on here, I imagine they’d be destroyed for the simple crime of not knowing. 

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

I don't think it's too bad on here to be honest.

Quite a few newbies take offence because they don't understand that their boat is not like any other, and when questioned further rather than having their aparently simple question answered in one sentence they find they are being asked more questions.

It's a bit like the day you went to France with your carefully rehearsed french phrase, but the local replies with a fast response, it's just too much!

Yes, I do agree. And no, it’s not “too bad”…but why does that make it ok? 

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I think that sometimes an attempt at humour to lighten a message that the originator may not want to hear can get misconstrued. A recent example that thankfully seems to be going along nicely now. The poster said something to the effect of "I don't understand electrics and I am not touching them". Now it was as plain as day that the originator did not have a clue about what was going on and that to solve their issue they were going to HAVE TO get deeply involved with their electrics, maybe not practically but certainly by lots of reading and learning. My reply was "First phrase - we can see that, plain as day. Second phrase - if that is your attitude then stand by for buying new battery banks every few weeks. If you want trouble free boating you absolutely must get involved with the electrics." The first part of my reply was intended to introduce a bit of lightness because although true the second part was very unlikely to be well received, and I think it was not. The Op certainly seemed to get a bit upset for a while.

 

Then all too often we get questions from those who feel they have the right to expect others to spend time trying to help them but don't give enough detail and when extra detail is requested do not supply it. Then when pressed for it get into a huff. It is understandable that initially many won't have a clue what is required to solve their issue but when asked for more information that they seem to refuse to supply without saying why they can't seems just plain rude to me.

 

Let us say that the forum introduces a rule saying one can't criticize a questioner or can not ask for further clarifications. How many answers would the questioner get, and what would be the quality of such answers?

 

Some may view it as cruel but say or do something stupid in the pub or at work and often it will attract so numerous comments at your expense. That is what is happening often when posters get upset rather than realise they have made a fool of themselves. Which would you prefer, a light-hearted reply or just to be told you are being stupid?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think that sometimes an attempt at humour to lighten a message that the originator may not want to hear can get misconstrued. A recent example that thankfully seems to be going along nicely now. The poster said something to the effect of "I don't understand electrics and I am not touching them". Now it was as plain as day that the originator did not have a clue about what was going on and that to solve their issue they were going to HAVE TO get deeply involved with their electrics, maybe not practically but certainly by lots of reading and learning. My reply was "First phrase - we can see that, plain as day. Second phrase - if that is your attitude then stand by for buying new battery banks every few weeks. If you want trouble free boating you absolutely must get involved with the electrics." The first part of my reply was intended to introduce a bit of lightness because although true the second part was very unlikely to be well received, and I think it was not. The Op certainly seemed to get a bit upset for a while.

 

Then all too often we get questions from those who feel they have the right to expect others to spend time trying to help them but don't give enough detail and when extra detail is requested do not supply it. Then when pressed for it get into a huff. It is understandable that initially many won't have a clue what is required to solve their issue but when asked for more information that they seem to refuse to supply without saying why they can't seems just plain rude to me.

 

Let us say that the forum introduces a rule saying one can't criticize a questioner or can not ask for further clarifications. How many answers would the questioner get, and what would be the quality of such answers?

 

Some may view it as cruel but say or do something stupid in the pub or at work and often it will attract so numerous comments at your expense. That is what is happening often when posters get upset rather than realise they have made a fool of themselves. Which would you prefer, a light-hearted reply or just to be told you are being stupid?

 

 

I do agree with what you’re saying on the whole. And I am not a snowflake! I accept that as a newbie to something people need to accept an element of humility. 
 

but if I came up to you in the pub and said look, I know nothing about my battery, can You give me some advice? Would you honestly say “yeah I can tell you’re clueless”?

 
The question is, is it stupidity (sometimes I agree it is!) or is it inexperience. I have a masters degree in science. I am very intelligent, I also have 20 years of boating experience. And yet I still have many occasions in which I need to ask for advice on here, that doesn’t make me stupid. 

9 minutes ago, LadyG said:

It's a bit like the day you went to France with your carefully rehearsed french phrase, but the local replies with a fast response, it's just too much!

I would expect the French people I spoke to to be patient and kind. (They always are). 

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23 minutes ago, Balloon said:

Perhaps there’s a way to work towards an increased kindness, which might in its own way perpetuate the success of this community for more than a mere handful of “acceptable” posters? 

 

 

Couldn't agree more. So many new posters run a mile never to be seen again after reading the often vitriolic argument their innocent question elicits. In the long term this weakens the forum as traffic gradually declines. Most of this vitriol seems to stem from pointless arguing on the political section....the purpose of which on an inland waterways forum eludes me.....and when I say pointless, I don't refer to people's opinions, but the futility of the discussions given the very limited audience who actually read it.   

 

Even in the couple of years I've been on this forum the decline is quite noticeable.....look at the popular contributors for the week...it used to be you had to get into the 100's of greenies to make the top 10, now you can make it in with a couple of dozen. The 'live topics' section used to be hard to keep up with, now topics often stay there all day. I still think there is a lot of excellent knowledge here, but 90% of all posts are made by about 20 people which isn't sustainable in the long run what with competition from face ache so we could really do with building the membership. 

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Just now, booke23 said:

 

Couldn't agree more. So many new posters run a mile never to be seen again after reading the often vitriolic argument their innocent question elicits. In the long term this weakens the forum as traffic gradually declines. Most of this vitriol seems to stem from pointless arguing on the political section....the purpose of which on an inland waterways forum eludes me.....and when I say pointless, I don't refer to people's opinions, but the futility of the discussions given the very limited audience who actually read it.   

 

Even in the couple of years I've been on this forum the decline is quite noticeable.....look at the popular contributors for the week...it used to be you had to get into the 100's of greenies to make the top 10, now you can make it in with a couple of dozen. The 'live topics' section used to be hard to keep up with, now topics often stay there all day. I still think there is a lot of excellent knowledge here, but 90% of all posts are made by about 20 people which isn't sustainable in the long run what with competition from face ache so we could really do with building the membership. 

You’ve accurately articulated the point I was trying to make. 
 

i get as frustrated as anyone with the incompetence of some newbies. Some of which behaviour results in danger. But I would still speak kindly to such people. 
 

and I definitely don’t know as much as Others on here but that doesn’t mean I’m standing for any unkindness.

 

Seeing first hand the results of some peoples keyboard warrior behaviour from here on real life actual people has really made me frustrated. 

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Some of the old grumpfuttocks on here have very fragile egos,and whilst they generally impart valuable information, they do so on their own terms. They believe giving their knowledge and experience for free benefits the person asking the question, and those other people reading it , with no benefit to themselves. This clearly is not true. 

 

They get very upset, I have noticed, if questions go unanswered, or not enough initial detail is provided,and so they get frustrated. 

 

Newbies here, could do themselves no end of favours using the search function, and phrasing their questions at the outset in a better manner than some do.

 

The purists, here, also do not like it when threads go off topic. 

 

So, to answer your question, yes, answers could be given in a politer manner than is often the case, but everyone communicates differently, as they do in life, so it's unlikely to happen.

 

You bring up mtb, so I will mention here that I have a lot of respect for him and his posting style. He seems to be able to strike a good balance of technical help, polite questioning, and humour. 

 

Lots of people here, including me, could learn a thing or two from him. 

 

<send the cheque to the usual address Mike>

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Are we set for the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?  

 

Some recent posters have rejected the advice given out of hand because it is not what they want to hear.

They post with erroneous preconceived ideas and then get peeved when they are shot down by someone who knows and has many years of experience.

 

I have tried to help some in the past but after the first few return comments I have bowed out because I can see that they are not going to give the required information nor accept the good advice given. 

 

I have better things to do with my time than argue with dunderheads.

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Edited by Tracy D'arth
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4 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

 

Even in the couple of years I've been on this forum the decline is quite noticeable.....look at the popular contributors for the week...it used to be you had to get into the 100's of greenies to make the top 10, now you can make it in with a couple of dozen. The 'live topics' section used to be hard to keep up with, now topics often stay there all day. I still think there is a lot of excellent knowledge here, but 90% of all posts are made by about 20 people which isn't sustainable in the long run what with competition from face ache so we could really do with building the membership. 

I think this bit is really important, without newbys the place will die and that will be a shame, over the years I've made some really good friends via the forum, plus of course learnt a hell of a lot, mind you I forget most of it but still the point stands ;)

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6 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

I think this bit is really important, without newbys the place will die and that will be a shame, over the years I've made some really good friends via the forum, plus of course learnt a hell of a lot, mind you I forget most of it but still the point stands ;)

This @tree monkey is my point. @Tracy D'arthi take your point, and I see you willingly and regularly giving out quality advice for free and can understand your frustration. But I think it’s also important to remember that each frustrating newbie is a new one. They don’t deserve to carry the burden of the previous frustrating newbies. 
 

 

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36 minutes ago, Balloon said:


 

 

Yes, I do agree. And no, it’s not “too bad”…but why does that make it ok? 

I think it's mainly unintentional, people just write something which can be interpreted as being awkward, or not sympathetic.

 

PS you have to be on here for a few years to get the sort of following I have, three on ignore that post nearly every comment I make, even though they are aware of my opinion of them, or possibly because of it. 

I avoid FB because it seems to encourage swearing and vitriol, at least swearing is not allowed on here, though ¥*** and suchlike are allowed, aparently.

 

Edited by LadyG
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9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Some of the old grumpfuttocks on here have very fragile egos,and whilst they generally impart valuable information, they do so on their own terms. They believe giving their knowledge and experience for free benefits the person asking the question, and those other people reading it , with no benefit to themselves. This clearly is not true. 

 

They get very upset, I have noticed, if questions go unanswered, or not enough initial detail is provided,and so they get frustrated. 

 

Newbies here, could do themselves no end of favours using the search function, and phrasing their questions at the outset in a better manner than some do.

 

The purists, here, also do not like it when threads go off topic. 

 

So, to answer your question, yes, answers could be given in a politer manner than is often the case, but everyone communicates differently, as they do in life, so it's unlikely to happen.

 

You bring up mtb, so I will mention here that I have a lot of respect for him and his posting style. He seems to be able to strike a good balance of technical help, polite questioning, and humour. 

 

Lots of people here, including me, could learn a thing or two from him. 

 

<send the cheque to the usual address Mike>

Yes I do have a lot of time for @MtB as I hope he knows! And didn’t mean to include him in my brush tarring. His post was accepting of the culture on here and my question was, should we accept this? It doesn’t sit comfortably with me. Maybe that means it’s not the place for me or maybe that means others are similarly uncomfortable and it’s time for a bit of a change. I’m not saying rules that remove banter and make it a sterile place. I’m just trying to remind people that the others on here are also that. Just people. Shit like the rest of us. 

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I have learnt lots of useful and/or interesting information on this forum.  However, it does seem to me that there is little conversation about actual boating these days.  I'd like to see more about people's varied boating experiences. 

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2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

It's worth mentioning that without members like Tracy, Tony and Mike, plus many other very knowledgeable people the forum would a much poorer place.

 

I totally agree, some of these long standing members should be Knighted for services to inland waterways. But we need new members to stick around so there is a chance they could be long standing valuable members. The problem is this is not happening.....the question is how do we remedy it? 

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12 minutes ago, Balloon said:

Yes I do have a lot of time for @MtB as I hope he knows! And didn’t mean to include him in my brush tarring. His post was accepting of the culture on here and my question was, should we accept this? It doesn’t sit comfortably with me. Maybe that means it’s not the place for me or maybe that means others are similarly uncomfortable and it’s time for a bit of a change. I’m not saying rules that remove banter and make it a sterile place. I’m just trying to remind people that the others on here are also that. Just people. Shit like the rest of us. 

I didn't read it that you had tarred mtb, sorry if my reply came across that way. 

 

I suspect you are right, many people will be put off this forum by the posting style of some of its members, in fact, I know that to be the case. I am probably as guilty as some of the others.

 

 It's the same on the thunderboat forum, but worse. At least this place attracts new members. 

 

Perhaps that is the price one must pay to receive the advice, as you mentioned. If it is too high a price to pay, then other places are available, or the choice to pay a professional. I doubt posting styles will change,and I'm not sure that any other venue will have a different delivery style? 

 

I would say though, that the level of advice and expertise this forum has is invaluable, and in my eyes, the wealth of knowledge and archived threads makes it my first port of call for any technical questions I have. Most of which have been answered many times over, and are free to view using the search function. No interaction required. 
 

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33 minutes ago, Balloon said:

but if I came up to you in the pub and said look, I know nothing about my battery, can You give me some advice? Would you honestly say “yeah I can tell you’re clueless”?

 

That is not what I am talking about. That is a perfectly sensible question and if asked on here would be asked what sort of advice was needed and as long as a reply was given suitable advice would be forthcoming. If no reply was given or if then questioner was then rude thy may well get some humour with the as the but of the joke. If you go into a pub and say "The world is flat and held up by elephants" you should expect a response with you as the but of the joke.

 

If the person in your example, when asked what sort of advice he was looking for responded with I am entitled to ask that and I expect/demand that you to reply, what would your respons be?

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4 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I didn't read it that you had tarred mtb, sorry if my reply came across that way. 

 

I suspect you are right, many people will be put off this forum by the posting style of some of its members, in fact, I know that to be the case. I am probably as guilty as some of the others.

 

 It's the same on the thunderboat forum, but worse. At least this place attracts new members. 

 

Perhaps that is the price one must pay to receive the advice, as you mentioned. If it is too high a price to pay, then other places are available, or the choice to pay a professional. I doubt posting styles will change,and I'm not sure that any other venue will have a different delivery style? 

 

I would say though, that the level of advice and expertise this forum has is invaluable, and in my eyes, the wealth of knowledge and archived threads makes it my first port of call for any technical questions I have. Most of which have been answered many times over, and are free to view using the search function. No interaction required. 
 

Agreed but this point seems to suggest an unwillingness to change. A shame I feel. 

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is not what I am talking about. That is a perfectly sensible question and if asked on here would be asked what sort of advice was needed and as long as a reply was given suitable advice would be forthcoming. If no reply was given or if then questioner was then rude thy may well get some humour with the as the but of the joke. If you go into a pub and say "The world is flat and held up by elephants" you should expect a response with you as the but of the joke.

 

If the person in your example, when asked what sort of advice he was looking for responded with I am entitled to ask that and I expect/demand that you to reply, what would your respons be?

I completely agree, your example “poster” is rude, as are some/many! Posters. 
 

 

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8 minutes ago, Lady C said:

I have learnt lots of useful and/or interesting information on this forum.  However, it does seem to me that there is little conversation about actual boating these days.  I'd like to see more about people's varied boating experiences. 

Oh,  I thought that some people have blogs, or vlogs for that, I'm not sure there is much to be written about boating, certainly looking at recent new YouTubers they are rather off-putting! Not of the quality of Cruising the Cut or Minimal List.

 I do throw in some random things, recently my launderette thread, and last week it would be another equally rivetting (!) topic. Just keeps the forum ticking over.

I'm afraid my essay writing skills are not up to a standard suitable for publication on an open forum, and my log book is just a brief diary, with few notable events.

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1 hour ago, Balloon said:

however, I do wonder why we’re accepting that for anyone new on this forum one must accept an element of unkindness to access any sort of help. We’ve all been new to this once. And I’m pretty sure if anyone actually came up to anyone on this forum and asked a question or for some advice, in real life, posters would be far more patient. So why is it acceptable to destroy posters on here with unkindness and intolerance?

 

 

Unfortunately, it seems to be that there are a few usual suspects who seem to behave in this way, and I dont think anyone is going to get them to mend their ways..

 

A week or so ago, somebody asked a question and was "told" to do a Google Search, (I dont think the OP was new, but I often see newbies told to do a search of some kind, before asking such a question). Out of interest, I did a Google search on the subject, and couldn't find an answer. Somebody else also did a Google search and came up blank as well. The OP also confirmed that he had done a Google search, came up blank, hence the question here.

 

Somebody then said that they had done a Google search, come up with an answer, and intimated, (as they often do), that it was simple and that anybody who couldnt do it was perhaps a little bit stupid. The arrogance was, as usual, palpable.

 

On closer inspection, they had not done a Google search.... they had done a Bing search - perhaps they think that all search engines are Google? We don't know whether the number they found with their supersonic Bing search was of any use.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

If you go into a pub and say "The world is flat and held up by elephants" you should expect a response with you as the but of the joke.

Or a great evening discussing Terry Pratchett novels your new friend.

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