Battery Problem

[Higgs]

The first picture shows what I'd expect to see early in the morning. 11v and no discernable current. 

[LadyG]

32 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Going back to your first picture, if this was taken in sunlight then there is something wrong with the solar panels. It looks like the controller is connected to the batteries ok but the panels are not connected properly to the controller. Or some other issue such as a damaged panel or an obstruction on top of the panel. In effect the solar is doing nothing. I would at least physically check the wiring between the panels and the controller, physically check the panels for damage, obstruction/shading etc. you will probably find the little black MC5 connectors which are push on and have to be squeezed in thee right place to disconnect. I would disconnect and reconnect them because that might help to wipe clean the contacts and might highlight a fractured wire etc.

 

As other people have implied, whilst solar can provide you with the necessary power in mid summer, depending on how much solar you have, at some point in the autumn you are going to have to charge the batteries with fossil fuels.

 

But the first step (after charging the batteries with the engine in the short term) is to fix the solar.

The first photo indicates to me that the batteries are about eighty percent charged, which is quite good for an early morning status. Now this is just a guide, not to be fully relied on, it's just one of your daily checks.

I have an epever, and I press the battery button to monitor the 'state of charge' I want it to get to 100% every day in summer after quite a few hours of sunshine to check that the energy used daily is less than than the energy input.

This going to generate howls of protest from those that know about batteries and charging etc, but as far as I am concerned I am monitoring my electrical status every day, ( I check all my gauges), I can identify problems on the day they start. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by LadyG

[GUMPY]

14 minutes ago, PeterF said:

As has been stated above, that is a much larger inverter than most boats have. Even when you are not using any 240V appliances, if it is turned on it will consume 30W of battery power, at 12V that is 2.5A, which over a day (24 hours) will consume 60Ah. That is a lot of energy that needs replacing. Do you have a 240V fridge or freezer because this more than doubles the energy required to keep the fridge running. If your fridge is 12V then only turn the inverter on when you need 240V.

Quattro consumes:

20w if just sitting there

in standby it consumes

15w in AES mode

8w in search mode 

So if set in search mode as my Victron it it uses very little.

 

[LadyG]

12 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Quattro consumes:

20w if just sitting there

in standby it consumes

15w in AES mode

8w in search mode 

So if set in search mode as my Victron it it uses very little.

 

How does he set it to search mode and wil it kick in only when required, presumably by the fridge?

We don't yet know if he is also running a washing machine and a few PCs!

 

I hope OP has not given up yet, it wont help!

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by LadyG

[PeterF]

7 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Quattro consumes:

20w if just sitting there

in standby it consumes

15w in AES mode

8w in search mode 

So if set in search mode as my Victron it it uses very little.

 

Wrong figures I am afraid, your figures are for the 3000VA Quattro, if you look in the OP the photo shows it is a 5000VA Quattro which is

 

30W standby

20W AES mode

10W search mode.

 

Your point about swapping to one of the advanced modes is correct, this significantly reduces power when not used. However, to an electrical newcomer, turn it off when not used is a simple approach.

[GDaniel]

Fridge and freezer. I switched off the freezer. I don't have any other major appliances. I have a 4g router that I've had switched on all day. 

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, LadyG said:

The first photo indicates to me that the batteries are about eighty percent charged,

 

Are we looking at the same picture ?

 

10.3 volts is not 80% charged

 

 

[GUMPY]

15 minutes ago, PeterF said:

Wrong figures I am afraid, your figures are for the 3000VA Quattro, if you look in the OP the photo shows it is a 5000VA Quattro which is

 

30W standby

20W AES mode

10W search mode.

 

Your point about swapping to one of the advanced modes is correct, this significantly reduces power when not used. However, to an electrical newcomer, turn it off when not used is a simple approach.

Yes comes of trying to read a PDF on a mobile phone screen.

 

19 minutes ago, LadyG said:

How does he set it to search mode and wil it kick in only when required

It can be set using the Victron Connect app provided of course you either have a usb or Bluetooth interface with your Victron.

Yes with the right fridge (non electronic one) it will kick in and start when the stat demands cooling. 

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Are we looking at the same picture ?

 

10.3 volts is not 80% charged

 

 

 

I agree, in fact it shows completely discharged batteries.

[GDaniel]

The inverter itself indicates battery very low. Just to add that at midday the volts indicator from solar panel increase but doesn't charge the batteries 

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

Fridge and freezer. I switched off the freezer. I don't have any other major appliances. I have a 4g router that I've had switched on all day. 

 

Can you read anything written on the batteries or post a photo of the with something To scale from? The reason is most narrow boats use batteries in the 100 to 120 Amp hour (Ah) range but you can get 200 Ah ones. You say two batteries but that may mean two domestic plus another for engine starting (I think this is the case) or one domestic battery plus one start battery. Unless they are 2 x 200 Ah domestic batteries it sounds to me as if this boat was previously used with a permanent shoreline connection. I suspect that for a fridge and freezer (noted the freezer is turned off) you will need at least four x 110 Ah batteries and in a month or two (depending upon the solar size)   long engine running hours per day to recharge them. Say 4 hours at 1200 rpm per day and then 8 hours plus at weekends. If you don't fully charge them they will sulphate and lose capacity, the less well charged you leave them the worse the sulphation will be.

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

The inverter itself indicates battery very low. Just to add that at midday the volts indicator from solar panel increase but doesn't charge the batteries 

 

Increase to what? If it is less than 13.6 volts then it won't and it really needs to end up at around 14.4 volts. Very flat batteries will pull the charging voltage down but at the same time the charging current (amps) should be high. In view of what you have told us I would not like to rule out damaged batteries that won't accept a charge or are even self discharging themselves, but that won't become clear until you have got your batteries charged and then noted the charging voltage and current over time and posted them here.

 

Nick is correct that it would be a very good idea to ensure all the joints in the solar wiring are clean and tight, especially where they attache to the controller - in cluding the ones feeding the batteries.

Edited August 17, 2022 by Tony Brooks

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

The inverter itself indicates battery very low. Just to add that at midday the volts indicator from solar panel increase but doesn't charge the batteries 

What does the current show at midday, ie the central lower figure suffixed by A? Or just a photo of it at midday.

Edited August 17, 2022 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

One other thing. The info you have given seems to show that you would probably benefit from lithium batteries with a suitable charging system but that will be very expensive as you won't DIY it at present, Lithium batteries charge very fast and can be discharged far deeper than lead acids. At this time of year working solar would have an average bank fully charged by lunchtime.

[GDaniel]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Can you read anything written on the batteries or post a photo of the with something To scale from? The reason is most narrow boats use batteries in the 100 to 120 Amp hour (Ah) range but you can get 200 Ah ones. You say two batteries but that may mean two domestic plus another for engine starting (I think this is the case) or one domestic battery plus one start battery. Unless they are 2 x 200 Ah domestic batteries it sounds to me as if this boat was previously used with a permanent shoreline connection. I suspect that for a fridge and freezer (noted the freezer is turned off) you will need at least four x 110 Ah batteries and in a month or two (depending upon the solar size)   long engine running hours per day to recharge them. Say 4 hours at 1200 rpm per day and then 8 hours plus at weekends. If you don't fully charge them they will sulphate and lose capacity, the less well charged you leave them the worse the sulphation will be.

2 of these plus standard battery for starter etc. It's the best photo I could get but I believe they are acid batteries. 

[nicknorman]

Looks like it says 260Ah, if so 520Ah should be plenty, assuming they are 12v. Or was, before they got stuck down at 10.3v

Edited August 17, 2022 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

2 of these plus standard battery for starter etc. It's the best photo I could get but I believe they are acid batteries. 

 

Thanks, that is not as bad as I feared. They seem to be 260Ah so assuming they are 12V connected in parallel that is 520 Ah total capacity so something like 5 typical batteries. They are certainly worth trying to rejuvenate, if for no other reason they will cost an arm and a leg and probably give you a hernia trying to get the oled ones out an dthe new ones in.

 

You seem to have a 1, 2, Both, off battery switch *UNLESS it is a simple on-off master switch - I can't see enough to tell. If it is a 1,2,both, off switch much depends upon how it is wired (I don't expect you to know that), but if so it is all too easy to misuse it so that:

You never charge the engine battery

You never charge the domestic battery bank

The engine battery discharges into the domestic bank so you can't start the engine.

 

It may be a good idea to tell us how you use the big red switch in the phoot and anything written around the knob apart from the OFF that we can read.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 hours ago, GDaniel said:

2 of these plus standard battery for starter etc. It's the best photo I could get but I believe they are acid batteries.

 

It would be worth you time trying to get 'into' the batteries and at least get the wood and stuff off the top of them - if they need replacing you are going to have to lift them out and replace them anyway, so it would be advantageous if you had already 'cleared the area'.

 

Just be aware that if they are indeed 260Ah batteries they will be very very heavy (around 70kgs each) and very expensive (between £380 and £900 each)

 

I have 6x 220Ah batteries and they weigh 58 kgs each - they are very difficult to move around and lift into and out of battery boxes - make as much clear space around them as you can

Edited August 17, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[David Mack]

Whatever else is going on, your fridge will typically comprise about half your total electricity use (not including the freezer). If you are having to manage with a limited supply of electricity, turning the fridge off completely is the easiest way of reducing your electrical demand while you sort other things out.

[cheesegas]

I'd also add that you need to get yourself a digital multimeter and watch a few youtube videos on how to use it, for basic faultfinding. They're about £10 from Screwfix - with that, you can measure voltages in various locations to check for a loose wire, unknown switch, bad connection etc etc. With someone advising you, it's easier to work out faults then.

 

On the solar, can you take some photos of the following?

Your solar panels, and if they're on tilting mounts, the silver spec sticker on the back

Any big battery isolator switches in the boat, and tell us the procedure when you start the engine

The solar controller display when the panels are in full sun around midday

Your fridge and freezer - are they 240v or mains?

 

Turn the fridge and freezer off in the meantime though, a good 12v fridge will pull around 20-40ah out of the batteries (depends on ambient temps, ventilation, door openings etc) over 24hrs which is a considerable amount. If you're also running that massive inverter on top and have insufficient solar, that'll be pulling too much out the batteries.

Edited August 17, 2022 by cheesegas

[MtB]

I'm of the view you have been given a shedload of pricelessly good information, if you can manage to sift through it all and come to understand it. 

 

I say this because your are at the base of perhaps the steepest and highest learning curve you will ever encounter as a boater. A curve well worth climbing if only because if you don't or if you fail, electricity problems will drive you off the boat as a live-aboard.

 

Despite the brutal nature of some of the posts in this thread everyone here has the basic intention to help. Take it on the chin and come back with questions. No matter how basic, banal or advanced your questions are you will gt good and constructive answers. Mostly lol! 

 

[GDaniel]

On 17/08/2022 at 20:33, MtB said:

I'm of the view you have been given a shedload of pricelessly good information, if you can manage to sift through it all and come to understand it. 

 

I say this because your are at the base of perhaps the steepest and highest learning curve you will ever encounter as a boater. A curve well worth climbing if only because if you don't or if you fail, electricity problems will drive you off the boat as a live-aboard.

 

Despite the brutal nature of some of the posts in this thread everyone here has the basic intention to help. Take it on the chin and come back with questions. No matter how basic, banal or advanced your questions are you will gt good and constructive answers. Mostly lol! 

 

Really appreciate that. In other very good  news the solar panels are charging the batteries again (see pic) All I did btw now and my last post was switch the fridge and freezer off. Because of work I didn't have time to run the engine. Am I right in assuming that by switching of the the most power draining appliances it gave the batteries time to "recover"? I suppose this also indicates that if I plan to use the fridge and/or freezer, then running the engine regularly for an hour or 2 is going to be necessary as I wasn't always doing that and the solar panels can't be relied upon solely? Pun not intended. Relieved my batteries aren't kaput 😅  

Edited August 19, 2022 by GDaniel
Spelling

[rusty69]

That's great.

 

If you still have no loads on, they have a way to go yet before being fully charged, with 12A going in.

 

As the solar season ends, in October ish, you will need to run your engine more to compensate. For how long will depend on how much the batteries are depleted, of course,and the size of your alternator, to a certain extent. 

 

LA batteries take a long time to charge fully, particularly the last bit. Each time you do not do so, you are likely to sulphate the cells, and they will have less and less capacity. 

 

You may get away with a couple of hours a day, but I would give it a much longer run once a week If you can. 

 

I would also try and run it earlier in the day, and let the solar finish them off. Though with dwindling sun, and the heavy loads you appear to have, it may not make much difference. 

 

Make sure you have the engine revs set high enough, as I think Tony mentioned earlier. 

 

To not waste fuel, when they are fully charged, you will need some form of battery monitoring.A simple voltmeter and ammeter will suffice if you monitor tail current.Fancy battery monitor options are also available,but don't rely on the percentage reading at face value unless you understand the parameters it has been set with,and even then take them with a pinch of salt.

 

If you have a smartgauge, make sure it is calibrated before relying on it.

 

Read Tonys battery charging primer.

 

That is all.

 

Communication ends

Edited August 19, 2022 by rusty69

[blackrose]

On 17/08/2022 at 08:30, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you in a marina ?

Do you have a mains supply ?

.

 

We're these questions ever answered? Perhaps I missed it? 

[blackrose]

14 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

That's great. If you still have no loads on, they have a way to go yet before charged, with 12A going in. As the solar season ends, in October ish, you will need to run your engine more to compensate. 

 

If the boat is in a mooring with shore power then just leave the battery charger on and maybe switch the inverter off. Then the fridge can be left on too, assuming it's 12v. You won't need to run the engine at all 

 

It won't solve any remaining issues around battery charging when you're not on shore power but it will save your batteries in the meantime. 

 

If the boat isn't on shore power of course then forget what I've just said. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by blackrose