Battery Problem

[GDaniel]

Hi. I'm sure this is a topic that comes up repeatedly but need advice. Bought my narrowboat nearly 2 months ago. Power set up was working well. Solar panels charging batteries seemingly well. Lots of sun etc. This last week I noticed that the batteries weren't charging. See pic attached. Would this suggest the leisure battery is kaput? The investor is also telling battery is low so I think that's an obvious clue 😂 I had been able to keep things going by running the engine for a bit but I work away from my boat everyday and so can't do this consistently. Came back late last night to find it was completely flat. Any advice welcome. Ps 1 I have no experience when it comes to electrical maintenance so I ain't messing about with that! Ps 2 pic taken in the early hours of this morning but it's been the same alert at midday during very hot weather. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by GDaniel

[Higgs]

Could you describe what panel setup you have, and is anything drawing power all the time. The solar panels might be trying to replace power drawn, but when the sunlight is weak, very little current could be flowing back into the batteries. The batteries may just be in a constant state of weakness, without receiving a thorough charging. There are also various types of solar charge controllers. MPPT are at the better end of efficiency. (Maximum Power Point Tracking). Can't tell what you have. 

 

At the time you've taken the picture, early morning, the solar panel is not yet reading very much, as would be expected. And at that voltage reading, you could be cell down on the battery - but it's very flat. 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Higgs

[GDaniel]

Thanks for the quick reply. I think it will be easier to provide a few pics. My lights and water pump still work but things like my fridge and other things linked to plug points don't. I appear to have 2 large leisure batteries. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

Depending on how much solar panelling you have, running the engine "for a bit" in the evening isn't enough. It needs serious hours to maintain the health of lead acid batteries. How many/wattage panels do you have? Even with a lot of panels, they will be ineffective during the depths of winter. The amount of solar energy per average day drops by a factor of ten from June to December. What made you think that the batteries were no longer charging? I'm thinking a solar connection problem, not a battery problem.

The batteries at 10.3V are flat flat flat. They need immediately charging to avoid further damage. Lead acids need regular complete charging to avoid sulphating and losing capacity. The low voltage on the solar input side suggests the panels may not actually be charging. I don't know the monitor in your picture, so can't say for sure. If there is a connection problem, then they won't have been charging the batts and the short bit of engine running won't have been enough to do the job.

You are going through what many new live aboard boaters experience. You have to replace what energy you use each day plus a bit on average. This is hard to do with a full time job in winter, when solar is much less effective. The batteries should be completely recharged every two to three days. At worse no longer than a week, to avoid wrecking them.

The battery charging primer, link below is a good read on this.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Jen-in-Wellies

[Higgs]

If your fridge is meant to be running, but isn't, it will be due to the low battery voltage. And the fridge is quite a high power-consuming unit. You also have a really large Inverter charger, and two leisure batteries I think is not enough to make good use of the Victron unit. But you have to sort the charging out. Without a good long charge, probably by the engine, it is difficult to know if the batteries will recover to a better state. 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by Higgs

[Alan de Enfield]

25 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

..........things like my fridge and other things linked to plug points...........

 

 

When you say 'plug points' do you mean mains 3-pin plugs, or, 12v plugs ?

 

What are these 'other things' that you mention ?

(Microwave, washing machine, toaster, kettle, air fryer ................. ?)

 

Do you have an immersion heater in the calorifier ? Is it switched on ? (an immersion heater will destroy batteries within a few hours unless you are plugged into a shoreline supply).

 

Have you (or anyone else) recently disconnected the batteries for any reason ? (This can confuse your MPPT controller and when reconnected it defaults to 24 volts and will not charge the batteries)

 

Are you in a marina ?

Do you have a mains supply ?

Whereabouts in the country are you ?

 

Can you provide more details about your equipment on board and what size (Ah) are the batteries.

 

Do you have a multimeter for electrical testing ?

 

2 batteries is unlikely to be sufficient for a liveaboard, if you take solar out of the equation it would not be unusual to have to run the engine for 4 hours per day and 8 hours at weekends to replace what you have used.

 

If your electrical system is failing after the last few days/weeks of extreme sunlight you are going to really struggle once the Sun goes away on its Winter holidays so you do need to get it sorted as soon as you can.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, GDaniel said:

I had been able to keep things going by running the engine for a bit but I work away from my boat everyday and so can't do this consistently.

 

I think this is the clue and it sounds like the "same old, same old" to me. New boater, thinks an unknown amount of solar is the answer to everything without even considering the details and implications. Quite likely thinks the boat is connected to the National Grid and has consistently taken more out of the batteries than has been put back in each day. Much as others have said.

 

35 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

My lights and water pump still work but things like my fridge and other things linked to plug points don't.

 

That makes me suspect a mains fridge run from the inverter, but at much below about 12.2 volts I doubt a 12V one would work either.

 

If it makes you feel any better you are just the latest of a long line of new boaters who post this type of thing and there will be many more in  the future. If you can run the engine at 1200  pm plus (depends on engine, but that does for the majority) for 12 hours plus you just might recover enough batteries to keep using them, but my guess is that by consistently under charging them they have sulphated and there is a good chance they have internal shorts. Both mean a new set.

 

This may sound harsh but:

1 hour ago, GDaniel said:

I have no experience when it comes to electrical maintenance so I ain't messing about with that!

 

First phrase - we can see that, plain as day. Second phrase - if that is your attitude then stand by for buying new battery banks every few weeks. If you want trouble free boating you absolutely must get involved with the electrics. For a start read the primer Jen pointed you to, if you need anything explained come back and ask. Next you need to do a power/energy audit - you can find instructions in either set of course notes on tb-training.co.uk and other wed sources. When you know how much electricity you need each day that will tell you the size of battery bank needed and it will also allow you to get an idea about the extraordinary length of time the engine has to be run to put back in what you took out.

 

Next learn how to assess the batteries state of charge from rested voltage and try to never allow them to drop below about 12.2 to 12.3 volts.

 

Tell us what the solar controller reads around midday in bright sunlight plus a photo of your panels. That will allow us to make an informed guess as to if it is working as expected (by us, not you, I think your expectations are unrealistic at present).

 

If this sounds harsh it is not meant to be, but it seems that you need a good dose of reality, so you understand the problems and possibly modify your use of electricity to cope with the limitations,

[GDaniel]

Thanks. I appreciate the candid responses. It's not that I'm unwilling to improve my knowledge but I'm going to do so with humility so as not to electrocute myself. Pity that some in this thread feel the need to highlight my ignorance  but that may say more about them than it does about me. I'm grateful for the helpful comments and I'll crack on with solving it. 

50 minutes ago, Higgs said:

If your fridge is meant to be running, but isn't, it will be due to the low battery voltage. And the fridge is quite a high power-consuming unit. You also have a really large Inverter charger, and two leisure batteries I think is not enough to make good use of the Victron unit. But you have to sort the charging out. Without a good long charge, probably by the engine, it is difficult to know if the batteries will recover to a better state. 

 

 

This is helpful, I'll look at what happens after a long charge running the engine 

1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Depending on how much solar panelling you have, running the engine "for a bit" in the evening isn't enough. It needs serious hours to maintain the health of lead acid batteries. How many/wattage panels do you have? Even with a lot of panels, they will be ineffective during the depths of winter. The amount of solar energy per average day drops by a factor of ten from June to December. What made you think that the batteries were no longer charging? I'm thinking a solar connection problem, not a battery problem.

The batteries at 10.3V are flat flat flat. They need immediately charging to avoid further damage. Lead acids need regular complete charging to avoid sulphating and losing capacity. The low voltage on the solar input side suggests the panels may not actually be charging. I don't know the monitor in your picture, so can't say for sure. If there is a connection problem, then they won't have been charging the batts and the short bit of engine running won't have been enough to do the job.

You are going through what many new live aboard boaters experience. You have to replace what energy you use each day plus a bit on average. This is hard to do with a full time job in winter, when solar is much less effective. The batteries should be completely recharged every two to three days. At worse no longer than a week, to avoid wrecking them.

The battery charging primer, link below is a good read on this.

 

Really appreciate this. Very helpful. I'm learning every day and so grateful to the time you've taken to respond in such detail. 

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

Thanks. I appreciate the candid responses. It's not that I'm unwilling to improve my knowledge but I'm going to do so with humility so as not to electrocute myself. Pity that some in this thread feel the need to highlight my ignorance  but that may say more about them than it does about me. I'm grateful for the helpful comments and I'll crack on with solving it. 

You will not electrocute yourself with 12v.

 

But with that attitude you will stop the people on here who know from helping you.

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You will not electrocute yourself with 12v.

 

But with that attitude you will stop the people on here who know from helping you.

That is true, but the OP would need to be able to distinguish what is 12v and what isn't.

 

They already said they weren't electrically minded. 

[Higgs]

9 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

You will not electrocute yourself with 12v.

 

A bit of a caveat - the business end of the inverter.

 

 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

A bit of a caveat - the business end of the inverter.

 

 

And possibly the solar input to the mppt. Ours produces early 80V dc. 

 

That's possibly 3 different voltages already in a small engine room. 

[Tony Brooks]

And the above three posts show why for their own safety the OP needs to urgently get to grips with first their boat and how all its equipment works and then the details about battery charging and battery care. Either that or be very rich to afford the fees professionals (some of who are not very good) will charge to do it for them.

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

Pity that some in this thread feel the need to highlight my ignorance  but that may say more about them than it does about me.

 

Which posts are doing that ?

 

I can only see posts that are helping you by offering suggestions as to what you need to do, or, by asking you to supply answers to questions that will allow us to guide you on the way forward.

[Tony Brooks]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Which posts are doing that ?

 

I can only see posts that are helping you by offering suggestions as to what you need to do, or, by asking you to supply answers to questions that will allow us to guide you on the way forward.

 

I think they meant mine because I tried to identify where the root problem probably lies, and although I agree a two battery bank MIGHT be too small without being told the capacity, at this stage it looks more likely to be user error to me. I was going to say user ignorance, but that might read a bit derogatory if the OP has a mind to take it that way, rather than accept that they have an awful lot to learn and learn fast.

[LadyG]

Ok, the OP needs help, it is possible that the batteries are knackered, but is it possible that he could tell us a bit more of his understanding of his system ( before he buys another set which then die due to not being charged sufficiently).

Does he isolate the starter battery from the domestic day to day?  It seems likely he does this else the engine won't start. Is the starter battery the AGM type, ie don't need topped up.

Is the domestic ie the house battery (or as usual more than one, but linked in to one bank), is it / are they lead acid (need topped up with water , deionised).

If he decides to run his engine for enough hours per week to keep batteries charged in winter , this is going to be very irritating , for himself and for his neighbours. The engine should only be run between eight am and eight pm, so every weekend he is enslaved by the engine

 

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Is the starter battery the AGM type, ie don't need topped up.

 

That is a rather bold statement and some flooded cell lead acid batteries are sold as maintenance free. Neither type will need topping up as long as the charging voltage (including any games the solar controller may play) is kept within limits, but if not even the catalytic breather types might run out of water. Then as it is impossible to top them up without drilling the cell lids they are kaput.

[GDaniel]

Thanks all. I have found most of the comments really helpful. Being lectured by somone about my attitude isn't particularly helpful because I am really keen to solve this but I don't know where to start. I am ignorant, I own that,  but I want to learn hence the post. 

[LadyG]

Yes Tony, what I was trying to do was to get OP to describe his system, in basic detail, as he understands it, and determine not only his battery capacity, but also his set up and any maintenance needed on his batteries.

Regarding getting in to trouble with electricity, this is a well founded fear of the unknown, and I empathise. I have replaced all the batteries on my boat, so I know the connections are all free of corrosion and tight, presumably this is one check the OP can do without fear?

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by LadyG

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, GDaniel said:

Thanks all. I have found most of the comments really helpful. Being lectured by somone about my attitude isn't particularly helpful because I am really keen to solve this but I don't know where to start. I am ignorant, I own that,  but I want to learn hence the post. 

Try and work your way through some of the questions above, and the 'battery charging primer' above. 

 

Understanding what you have, and what your electricity use is will hold you in good stead for when things go wrong, and for when things become more difficult in the winter. 

 

You don't need to be poking around the electrics at this stage, unless you feel confident to do so. 

 

Labelling things up once you identify them may also be a useful exercise. 

[nicknorman]

Going back to your first picture, if this was taken in sunlight then there is something wrong with the solar panels. It looks like the controller is connected to the batteries ok but the panels are not connected properly to the controller. Or some other issue such as a damaged panel or an obstruction on top of the panel. In effect the solar is doing nothing. I would at least physically check the wiring between the panels and the controller, physically check the panels for damage, obstruction/shading etc. you will probably find the little black MC5 connectors which are push on and have to be squeezed in thee right place to disconnect. I would disconnect and reconnect them because that might help to wipe clean the contacts and might highlight a fractured wire etc.

 

As other people have implied, whilst solar can provide you with the necessary power in mid summer, depending on how much solar you have, at some point in the autumn you are going to have to charge the batteries with fossil fuels.

 

But the first step (after charging the batteries with the engine in the short term) is to fix the solar.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Going back to your first picture, if this was taken in sunlight then there is something wrong with the solar panels. It looks like the controller is connected to the batteries ok but the panels are not connected properly to the controller. Or some other issue such as a damaged panel or an obstruction on top of the panel. In effect the solar is doing nothing. I would at least physically check the wiring between the panels and the controller, physically check the panels for damage, obstruction/shading etc. you will probably find the little black MC5 connectors which are push on and have to be squeezed in thee right place to disconnect. I would disconnect and reconnect them because that might help to wipe clean the contacts and might highlight a fractured wire etc.

 

As other people have implied, whilst solar can provide you with the necessary power in mid summer, depending on how much solar you have, at some point in the autumn you are going to have to charge the batteries with fossil fuels.

 

But the first step (after charging the batteries with the engine in the short term) is to fix the solar.

 

That is why I asked for the readings at around midday and an idea about the solar capacity. I think the OP said one of the photos was early in the morning and that they worked all day. I took the bright spots on the photos to be from the flash, so it could well have been taken with little sunlight on the panels..

[PeterF]

As has been stated above, that is a much larger inverter than most boats have. Even when you are not using any 240V appliances, if it is turned on it will consume 30W of battery power, at 12V that is 2.5A, which over a day (24 hours) will consume 60Ah. That is a lot of energy that needs replacing. Do you have a 240V fridge or freezer because this more than doubles the energy required to keep the fridge running. If your fridge is 12V then only turn the inverter on when you need 240V.

[GDaniel]

Great. I'll work through all the queries and clarification points and come back to you, rather than respond piecemeal. 

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

That is why I asked for the readings at around midday and an idea about the solar capacity. I think the OP said one of the photos was early in the morning and that they worked all day. I took the bright spots on the photos to be from the flash, so it could well have been taken with little sunlight on the panels..

Maybe. He did say there was the same alert at midday but of course we don’t know what the current might have been showing.