Actual tools for a 1.8

[Psychalist]

10 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Time for a lesson. How would I go about retorquing head bolts if I needed to on a typical engine not necessarily BMC. Would I take them all out and start again or loosen each one (in order) and retighten. Would I take each one out and apply oil? Do people normally do this once in a while?

Not unless you want problems such as warped head, gasket failure etc. Best follow service manual advice. If you haven't got the manual, someone on here might be able to help. If this is about your LPW2, the bolts will be stretch bolts so once fitted they should not be re-torqued or re-used. This may connect with the other thread (also a BMC topic), about you losing coolant. Bolts that are re-used, will no longer 'stretch' when torqued on refitting. So, although the correct torque is achieved, they will slacken off and cause a head gasket leak, leading to gassing of the cooling circuit and loss of coolant. I know this because the boat we acquired had this problem. After much diagnosis, following much of the advice on here, the last resort was taking the head off to reveal the problem. Apologies for going off topic, but he started it sir!

 

Incidentally, that thread also mentioned gas analysis kit for coolant. I bought one but it didn't show exhaust gas in the coolant, so as they say, YMMV.

 

Having had the head skimmed and fitted correctly with new bolts, my coolant loss problem was solved (mainly). Unfortunately, depending on model, Lister LPW Alpha often come with a small expansion/header tank off a Land Rover where the bleed from the exhaust manifold comes into the tank right under the cap that lets the air out covering it with coolant. On expansion, there is always some small loss from the cap. The solution is a secondary header tank, but my deck arrangement won't support that so I've found the 'natural' level of cold coolant is an almost empty tank and let the engine get to temperature slowly to minimise loss.

[Peugeot 106]

33 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

Not unless you want problems such as warped head, gasket failure etc. Best follow service manual advice. If you haven't got the manual, someone on here might be able to help. If this is about your LPW2, the bolts will be stretch bolts so once fitted they should not be re-torqued or re-used. This may connect with the other thread (also a BMC topic), about you losing coolant. Bolts that are re-used, will no longer 'stretch' when torqued on refitting. So, although the correct torque is achieved, they will slacken off and cause a head gasket leak, leading to gassing of the cooling circuit and loss of coolant. I know this because the boat we acquired had this problem. After much diagnosis, following much of the advice on here, the last resort was taking the head off to reveal the problem. Apologies for going off topic, but he started it sir!

 

Incidentally, that thread also mentioned gas analysis kit for coolant. I bought one but it didn't show exhaust gas in the coolant, so as they say, YMMV.

 

Having had the head skimmed and fitted correctly with new bolts, my coolant loss problem was solved (mainly). Unfortunately, depending on model, Lister LPW Alpha often come with a small expansion/header tank off a Land Rover where the bleed from the exhaust manifold comes into the tank right under the cap that lets the air out covering it with coolant. On expansion, there is always some small loss from the cap. The solution is a secondary header tank, but my deck arrangement won't support that so I've found the 'natural' level of cold coolant is an almost empty tank and let the engine get to temperature slowly to minimise loss.

Interesting I take it that you too have an Alpha. I don’t think I have a gasket problem. The engine runs, starts perfectly with clean oil and coolant. I have never lost a drop of coolant it just sometimes needs redistributing. I’m hoping this is because air is sometimes leaking back into the pressure cap. If I do need to check the head gasket I will as it’s not a big job.

i won’t bother with a gas test if you say they are inconclusive. If I do have a gas leak i presume it must be very slight

i didn’t change the head bolts. I discussed with an ex Lister employee who was involved with Alpha development and reckons he has rebuilt scores of them in his new employment and he said no he never replaced the head bolts unless there was something wrong. Otherwise I have the manual and followed it to the letter. I did not retorque the head bolts as this isn’t requested in the manual.

As you can see from the previous thread I am planning to fit a new pressure cap with the overflow bottle and I hope that that solves my problem

My engine is really good and has never overheated in 6 months daily running but I like things to be tickety boo. If I still have problems after fitting a new cap I will investigate the head gasket and bolts again. I replaced the head gasket to find an annoying tiny oil leak not because of coolant. Meanwhile I may well retorque the head bolts just in case even though it’s not mentioned in the manual.

Thank you for your interest I have not met many people with Alpha engines. I had to look up YMMV. Mine is pretty light though I am learning mainly through this forum. I have a LPW2 on my bench in bits that I plan to rebuild if I get time!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Slim]

Point of order🤔. Everyone except Tony Brookes are talking about  bolts. The 1.5 and the 1.8 have studs and nuts/washers

[Psychalist]

This should really be on a separate topic, but it's par for the course here. Slim is quite right pointing out stretch bolts don't apply to BMC so readers should not be confused by this cross topic.

 

Peugot106, did you have this issue before working on the head? I'm not suggesting you have the same issue I had, but it is something to be aware of. Maybe your chap rebuilt mine 🤔 - I doubt they ever find out months down the line. I thought mine was fine. The gasket leak was so slight that I went down all the usual routes of air-lock, expansion cap etc. But, over maybe six months, I increasingly lost more amounts of coolant and then eventually on a long run the system gassed enough and coolant circulation was inadequate to keep the engine cool.  This was maybe 18 months after it was rebuilt. For 'not a big job' that lasts, I recommend original LP gasket and new bolts. Some after market gaskets appear inferior compared to the official kit for Sleeman Hawken.

[Peugeot 106]

44 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

This should really be on a separate topic, but it's par for the course here. Slim is quite right pointing out stretch bolts don't apply to BMC so readers should not be confused by this cross topic.

 

Peugot106, did you have this issue before working on the head? I'm not suggesting you have the same issue I had, but it is something to be aware of. Maybe your chap rebuilt mine 🤔 - I doubt they ever find out months down the line. I thought mine was fine. The gasket leak was so slight that I went down all the usual routes of air-lock, expansion cap etc. But, over maybe six months, I increasingly lost more amounts of coolant and then eventually on a long run the system gassed enough and coolant circulation was inadequate to keep the engine cool.  This was maybe 18 months after it was rebuilt. For 'not a big job' that lasts, I recommend original LP gasket and new bolts. Some after market gaskets appear inferior compared to the official kit for Sleeman Hawken.

OK you may be talking me into it as Tony Brooks has suggested that this could be the cause. I know that the bolts have been reused at least three times. I’m retired so it’s not too big a deal. Out of interest who skimmed your head if you are in Lancashire? I put a straight edge over mine and it was fine. Another question for you. What rating is your pressure cap? What engine do you have?

[Psychalist]

5 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

OK you may be talking me into it as Tony Brooks has suggested that this could be the cause. I know that the bolts have been reused at least three times. I’m retired so it’s not too big a deal. Out of interest who skimmed your head if you are in Lancashire? I put a straight edge over mine and it was fine. Another question for you. What rating is your pressure cap? What engine do you have?

LPWS3. I think it was Trafford Park Diesels the mechanic took it to. They checked for alignment and there was a thou or two difference so it was skimmed. The mechanic remarked that the coolant galleries in the head and block are very close to the bores, which doesn't help. Also, gasket quality was noticeably better on the official gasket.  They have a notch indicating the correct thickness for the head. If already skimmed, you have to be careful to order and fit the correct thicker one. As for the pressure cap, not sure what the rating is, but the old one wasn't sealing. I managed to get a matching one off Ebay as they are difficult to find. There's perhaps a rating on it but I don't have the details or access to check. This is a bad picture of it, if that helps:

[Tony Brooks]

FWIW, I think that if you invert that black plastic cap and hook out the rubber seal the metal pressure valve will just drop out and the pressure may be on the side closest to the cap. However, I very much doubt it will be in anything sensible like PSI, more likely to be in MPa.

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, Psychalist said:

LPWS3. I think it was Trafford Park Diesels the mechanic took it to. They checked for alignment and there was a thou or two difference so it was skimmed. The mechanic remarked that the coolant galleries in the head and block are very close to the bores, which doesn't help. Also, gasket quality was noticeably better on the official gasket.  They have a notch indicating the correct thickness for the head. If already skimmed, you have to be careful to order and fit the correct thicker one. As for the pressure cap, not sure what the rating is, but the old one wasn't sealing. I managed to get a matching one off Ebay as they are difficult to find. There's perhaps a rating on it but I don't have the details or access to check. This is a bad picture of it, if that helps:

Cheers. According to the Manual and Parts List you can only get head gaskets of one thickness for LPW(S) 1.47mm Different thickness gaskets are available for the LPA (air cooled) but they are a completely different part no.?

crankshaft shims come in different thicnknesses .

i’ve also heard somewhere that Alpha heads are difficult to skim though i’ve no idea why? Did anyone say anything to you?

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, Psychalist said:

LPWS3. I think it was Trafford Park Diesels the mechanic took it to. They checked for alignment and there was a thou or two difference so it was skimmed. The mechanic remarked that the coolant galleries in the head and block are very close to the bores, which doesn't help. Also, gasket quality was noticeably better on the official gasket.  They have a notch indicating the correct thickness for the head. If already skimmed, you have to be careful to order and fit the correct thicker one. As for the pressure cap, not sure what the rating is, but the old one wasn't sealing. I managed to get a matching one off Ebay as they are difficult to find. There's perhaps a rating on it but I don't have the details or access to check. This is a bad picture of it, if that helps:

Am just wondering if your leak was anything to do with the head gasket. You say you detected no gas on a gas test

 

Presumably you have water cooled exhaust manifold with no pressure cap so the only thing maintaining pressure is the pressure cap on the plastic tank. If that was leaking you couldn’t maintain pressure and coolant could/would leak out which could explain it running dry. Especially if it sucked loads of air in when cooling which expanded when started up again and blew even more coolant out.

 

Did you any other symptoms of gasket failure. Milky oil, oil in the coolant, poor starting, White exhaust smoke, bubbles in the coolant?

 

when did you replace the pressure cap. Before, same time or after head gasket?

 

I’m now wondering if the head gasket could be a wild goose chase and I may just try the new cap and give it a good blast.

 

i think at this point Tony’s input would be very welcome as I suspect that for the pair of us a little knowledge may be dangerous.......And  we may both need bringing back to earth?

 

 

 

 

[Psychalist]

39 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Cheers. According to the Manual and Parts List you can only get head gaskets of one thickness for LPW(S)

i’ve also heard somewhere that Alpha heads are difficult to skim though i’ve no idea why? Did anyone say anything to you?

You might not see them list but they are definitely a thing. Not aware of any issues skimming the head.

 

7 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Am just wondering if your leak was anything to do with the head gasket. You say you detected no gas on a gas test

Yes it was. After all other avenues were investigated, stripping it down revealed some gassing around one of the bores. I'll see if I have a picture. Prior to that, months of different checks included replacing pressure cap, testing thermostat, bleeding system (multiple times). Engine started fine, no change in oil or coolant colour but when properly warmed up at higher revs, plenty of bubbles in coolant and excess pressure. I spent some time looking in the engine 'ole whilst cruising to see what was going on. At low cruising speeds it wasn't so much of an issue, but as I said, it progressively deteriorated so even a short trip became impossible. If you've done some hard river work, I don't think you have the problem and did say yours might be a different issue, but if it's something that is getting worse, maybe. Perhaps you just have to allow for more coolant expansion. Certainly the small header on mine is barely big enough for the difference between cold and fully warmed up.

[Peugeot 106]

34 minutes ago, Psychalist said:

You might not see them list but they are definitely a thing. Not aware of any issues skimming the head.

 

Yes it was. After all other avenues were investigated, stripping it down revealed some gassing around one of the bores. I'll see if I have a picture. Prior to that, months of different checks included replacing pressure cap, testing thermostat, bleeding system (multiple times). Engine started fine, no change in oil or coolant colour but when properly warmed up at higher revs, plenty of bubbles in coolant and excess pressure. I spent some time looking in the engine 'ole whilst cruising to see what was going on. At low cruising speeds it wasn't so much of an issue, but as I said, it progressively deteriorated so even a short trip became impossible. If you've done some hard river work, I don't think you have the problem and did say yours might be a different issue, but if it's something that is getting worse, maybe. Perhaps you just have to allow for more coolant expansion. Certainly the small header on mine is barely big enough for the difference between cold and fully warmed up.

Sounds like you have had frustrations  too.  I had a small oil leak. The only damage it could ever do was to my pride. But I had to fix it and after HOURS with head in the Ole I found it in a place absolutely no one had suggested. (The capscrew holding the speed control plate to the block). It would have been a lot cheaper to have counselling and to have learnt not to sweat the small things (literally 5ml oil on the silver drip tray every night). I do know that these Alphas need looking after. I change the oil after 125 hours rather than 250. Please please no problems with the hydraulic tappets......

i can understand yours overheating if the gasket has gone. Presumably the air takes the place of the water round the jacket as well as bubbling out. Mine has never overheated.

i could maybe take it to Glasson and run it tied up on full chat for a few hours though it may be only a little more effort to change the head gasket and bolts and be done with

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Puff Along]

Wow!!!!! I thought there would a list Like 1x1/2 ring / open ender 2 x 5/8'' 6 an 8 mill ring, socket set, 4 screwdrivers etc etc.

Oh and a Hammer!!! But I will have a proper one and a rubber one!!!

The only crows foot I have is around my eyes!!!

I will have a sit down with a open tool box and work it out .

Thanks anyway.

[Tony Brooks]

6 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Presumably you have water cooled exhaust manifold with no pressure cap so the only thing maintaining pressure is the pressure cap on the plastic tank. If that was leaking you couldn’t maintain pressure and coolant could/would leak out which could explain it running dry. Especially if it sucked loads of air in when cooling which expanded when started up again and blew even more coolant out.

 

First of all those metal disc type pressure valves inside the plastic filler caps are known to fail open if coolant has gone through them.

 

You do not need engines pressurizing for typical canal work. You pressurize them because at high powers some internal arts of the engine get so hot the coolant can boil on them. The resultant steam blows even more coolant out of the system and can also deposit scale on the hot spots that in extreme cases can lead to heat distortion. Under typical canal conditions as long as the expansion tank is large enough for the coolant volume you can not lose coolant through expansion.

 

I have already suggested that before anything else you try a pressure cap with a decent seal under the top. That may well do the trick. You could even move to a 4 or 6 pint milk bottle for expansion to see how it goes on rivers.

 

 

[David Schweizer]

On 16/08/2022 at 10:09, Tony Brooks said:

 

Despite hat the manual may or may not say (I don't remember the 1.5 manual saying re-torque every XXXXX miles or hours) I have not found it necessary on an engine that has been built correctly. Also on the 1.5D and 1.8D getting at the middle row is not easy. As far as ordinary boaters are concerned my experience suggests that when they torque things up it is "let the wrench click plus a bit more" and that may strip threads or stretch the studs to their elastic limit so they no longer clamp with the force they should. This may be why modern practice is to torque to a low figure and then use a protractor to finally tighten xx degrees more.

 

Your memory has not failed you Tony. The official Operators Handbook states that the cylinder head nuts torque should be checked and adjusted after the first 500miles or 25 hours, but makes no mention of any further need to re-torque them;-  http://www.sckruger.dk/Operator's handbook BMC 1.5-Litre Diesel Engine.pdf

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by David Schweizer

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Your memory has not failed you Tony. The official Operators Handbook states that the cylinder head nuts torque should be checked and adjusted after the first 500miles or 25 hours, but makes no mention of any further need to re-torque them;-  http://www.sckruger.dk/Operator's handbook BMC 1.5-Litre Diesel Engine.pdf

 

 

Thanks, I think a better one for the collection. Now bookmarked.

 

All BMC owners reading this thread need to bear in mind that much has morphed into talking about Listers, not BMCs and they may be different.

[Peugeot 106]

13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

First of all those metal disc type pressure valves inside the plastic filler caps are known to fail open if coolant has gone through them.

 

You do not need engines pressurizing for typical canal work. You pressurize them because at high powers some internal arts of the engine get so hot the coolant can boil on them. The resultant steam blows even more coolant out of the system and can also deposit scale on the hot spots that in extreme cases can lead to heat distortion. Under typical canal conditions as long as the expansion tank is large enough for the coolant volume you can not lose coolant through expansion.

 

I have already suggested that before anything else you try a pressure cap with a decent seal under the top. That may well do the trick. You could even move to a 4 or 6 pint milk bottle for expansion to see how it goes on rivers.

 

 

Thank you Tony. I have tried with little success to find out the pressure rating from Lister Petter. I’m afraid that they just seem to work off part numbers which is not much help when you’ve got a codged together set up like mine. But looking at the manuals the engines are supplied with three different pressure caps. 7psi with a manifold like mine and Polar caps, 10lbs with one type of radiator and 15 lbs with another type of radiator.  Nothing else changes. Same pump, seals, thermostat etc. The marinisation manual says that the standard cap is 15psi. 

So I am going for 15psi since I have got rid of the Polar Caps. I’m not going to rush into the head gasket route. Though not difficult to change the cost with new bolts and OEM parts is I think in excess of £200 and that is without skimming.  It’s not impossible that it is leaking but there is no other sign that I can see. As you say the air could easily be coming from localised boiling. 

I’ll report back when I’ve changed the pressure cap and given it a hard run. I’ll tie it to something and run it for a while.

Thank You

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Thank you Tony. I have tried with little success to find out the pressure rating from Lister Petter. I’m afraid that they just seem to work off part numbers which is not much help when you’ve got a codged together set up like mine. But looking at the manuals the engines are supplied with three different pressure caps. 7psi with a manifold like mine and Polar caps, 10lbs with one type of radiator and 15 lbs with another type of radiator.  Nothing else changes. Same pump, seals, thermostat etc. The marinisation manual says that the standard cap is 15psi. 

So I am going for 15psi since I have got rid of the Polar Caps. I’m not going to rush into the head gasket route. Though not difficult to change the cost with new bolts and OEM parts is I think in excess of £200 and that is without skimming.  It’s not impossible that it is leaking but there is no other sign that I can see. As you say the air could easily be coming from localised boiling. 

I’ll report back when I’ve changed the pressure cap and given it a hard run. I’ll tie it to something and run it for a while.

Thank You

 

Sounds a fair plan as long as the pressure cap on the manifold has a seal under its cap. 14 PSI caps were very common on cars so 15 psi should be OK.

[Peugeot 106]

Sleeman Hawken and Lister Petter have come up trumps  with a very good explanation so it looks like a 15lbs cap will be fine and this should help with any localised boiling as well pump cavitation

 

I've got a pressure cap. Its actually the same as a plain cap but with a loose 0.75mm thick Nitrile washer. I think I'd better make some spares as I can see the washer getting damaged very easily.

 

The basic engine design is perfectly happy to run a 15psi pressure cap, and in fact we use this rating on some of our radiators.

Whist pressure increases the boiling point of the cooling liquid, it does not allow you to run hotter.
The engines design limitation is around the engines gasket / sealing temperature capability and therefore we have a designed temperature limit of 103deg C.

The only advantage of increased coolant pressure would be to reduce the potential of water pump cavitation created by the water pump intake volute; however, the problem does not exist at pressures of ≥10psi.

Honestly just make sure you have a 50/50 coolant mix, and a pressure cap ≥10psi...........see boiling point chart below for information only.

                                                                0 psi       10 psi    12 psi    15 psi
Water Only (Degrees C)                100         116         120         125
50% Anti-Freeze (Degrees C)       106         122         126         131