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Oil level within sump


Mikexx

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I have a dipstick that if I allow it, can touch the bottom of the sump. Not good.

 

I would like to weld a washer or nut to limit movement so the bottom of the dipstick is held off the bottom.

 

I thought someone here had measured the oil height at 4.7 Litres and so I should be ale to limit dipstick movement accordingly, but can't find the posts? Does anyone know the topic this was measured under, or am I simply dreaming of a post.

 

Furthermore, does 4.7L correspond to the minimum, or the max mark?

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I ain’t no expert. 
But the first question you’ll be asked is what engine you got?

 

But if you raise the dipstick with some washers or a nut you’ll simply need to lower you max and min markings by the same measurement ?

 

Can I ask what do you mean by if you allow it, it will touch the sump?

 

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Sorry 😂

 

I didn’t realise it was within the BMC topics. 
My mistake. 
I have a BMC 1800, I too would like to know the oil capacity.

 

When I change the oil I measure what I take  out and put  the same back in, and check the dip stick which I’ve always trusted. 

 

Edited by Goliath
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39 minutes ago, Goliath said:

Sorry 😂

 

I didn’t realise it was within the BMC topics. 
My mistake. 
I have a BMC 1800, I too would like to know the oil capacity.

 

When I change the oil I measure what I take  out and put  the same back in, and check the dip stick which I’ve always trusted. 

 

From my manual. 

Sump (Inc filter)    8.25 pints (4.68 litres)

Filter only               1.25 pints  (0.71 litres)

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Wonder where the dipstick came from? I think the answer is the next time you change the oil measure what goes in, that then will be 'full' on the stick, cut a bit off the stick until it no longer hits the bottom of the sump and make a mark at the level of the oil. Never over fill it, bad things happen.

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1 hour ago, Bee said:

Wonder where the dipstick came from? I think the answer is the next time you change the oil measure what goes in, that then will be 'full' on the stick, cut a bit off the stick until it no longer hits the bottom of the sump and make a mark at the level of the oil. Never over fill it, bad things happen.

 

If it has the same type of dipstick that I had on the BMC 1.5 in Helvetia, cutting a bit off the end will just mean that it descends lower and still hits the bottom. It had no depth stop instead, the top section of the dipstick was split and the two sections bowed out to create an interference fit. I restricted the depth that the stick could descdend by putting a small cable tie on the stick and adjusting it to a point where the dip stick end remained clear of the sump bottom. It also had the effect of preventing rattle and created an oil seal stopping any oil from spraying out of the sump.

 

The stick was the same as this generic 1980's BMC Stick. but minus the plastic depth stop, whicg-h is where I fitted the cable tie.

 

image.png.023df57d604b2113ff5d509cf6e37c6e.png

 

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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3 hours ago, Goliath said:

I ain’t no expert. 
But the first question you’ll be asked is what engine you got?

 

But if you raise the dipstick with some washers or a nut you’ll simply need to lower you max and min markings by the same measurement ?

 

Can I ask what do you mean by if you allow it, it will touch the sump?

 

 

I could have mentioned it's a 1500.

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7 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

Does the dipstick look like the one in my earlier post?

 

Yes and no.

 

There is no grommet or anything limiting travel and goes in nearly to the hoop whilst it touches the bottom, so much shorter.

 

I've change the oil this afternoon, and measured an oil level of 90mm from the bottom, and the dipstick is around 260mm from the tip to the base of the hoop. I calculate I need a dipstick that is 175mm from the grommet to the mark. Another issue is whether that should be the min, or max mark. They're quite a distance apart.

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1 hour ago, Mikexx said:

 

Yes and no.

 

There is no grommet or anything limiting travel and goes in nearly to the hoop whilst it touches the bottom, so much shorter.

 

I've change the oil this afternoon, and measured an oil level of 90mm from the bottom, and the dipstick is around 260mm from the tip to the base of the hoop. I calculate I need a dipstick that is 175mm from the grommet to the mark. Another issue is whether that should be the min, or max mark. They're quite a distance apart.

 

The other issue is that there were aparently more than one design of sump, with some being much deeper than others. Mine was a standard one which did not need an extra long dipstick. Not the best of photos, but it gives some idea of the proportions.

 

 

185987158_12PartRe-build04.JPG.91cd313417f4b716a7c1b146b8a682c7.JPG

 

With regard to your dipstick, your description would suggest that it is either the wrong one, or it has already been substantially shortened. This photo illustrates how high it should sit:

 

32427713_27Re-builtEngine-blue.JPG.930c1316f872ca75f2d793636affa1e4.JPG

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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I shall photo my dipstick tomorrow and see who’s is the longest. 
 

But as an aside, I understand that when an engine is put in a boat for the first time, it’s recommended if possible, the boat is at it’s  trim (if that’s the right way of saying it) before the correct amount of oil is poured in. 
And then you mark the dipstick accordingly. 
 

or is that just theoretical nonsense?

 

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14 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

The other issue is that there were aparently more than one design of sump, with some being much deeper than others. Mine was a standard one which did not need an extra long dipstick. Not the best of photos, but it gives some idea of the proportions.

 

With regard to your dipstick, your description would suggest that it is either the wrong one, or it has already been substantially shortened. This photo illustrates how high it should sit:

 

The sump looks the original tin one, like yours.

 

I've been looking at MGB dipsticks and there seem to be 3 types, though I'm pretty sure mine will be the latter type. With a push fit tube and straight dipstick. However I did read somewhere that BMC engines made in Turkey were different again.

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9 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its common for the stick to sit on the bottom of the sump.

Yes. and that used to happen on my engine before I fitted the cable tie. On boats we tend to check the oil level every day rather than weeks (or months) as in vans etc. I have heard of one instance where the dipstick was allowed to "hit" the sump every day over several decades causing a tiny hole to develope in the sump.

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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So far, every one is using different criteria for what the dip stick height should be, which can vary from engine to engine, particularly with an old, mix and match marinised one. Dip stick (did it come from the engine it is now in?), dip stick tube sticking out of the engine block (matched to the engine/dip stick?), any plastic stop on the dip stick (still there? If it is, is it in the right place?). The same base engine can have multiple sump pans, shallow in an MGB, for example to keep the engine low to the ground, or bigger capacity for a commercial vehicle running for long hours. The dip stick tube could be long, or short, depending on ease of access and what other bits are bolted around the engine and the corresponding dip stick will vary for all these differences.

From first principals, the top of the oil and the high point on the stick should be just below the lowest rotating bit of the crank. If it is higher than this, the turning crank will thrash the oil in to a foam.

The lowest point the oil should be so there is enough that there isn't a risk of the oil pickup sucking air and the oil supply to bearings failing. After it has lubricated various bearings, the oil falls back by gravity down in to the sump, so there needs to be a reservoir of oil above the pickup to cover the oil that is circulating round. In a car, there needs to be more oil, so that the pickup isn't exposed as the oil sloshes around when cornering, braking, or accelerating, but that isn't so much of a concern in a narrowboat, unless it is a hire boat 😀.

The more oil there is, the longer you can go between oil changes, as there is more oil to absorb the nasties from engine combustion that end up in it. My Beta43 has twice the oil capacity in its sump than a comparable Vetus engine (4.5l) and has oil change intervals of twice the hours.

So to set the high level, you need to know the angle of the engine when the boat is at its worse case trim and the lowest point of the crank, or big ends from the top of the dip stick tube. The low level, set to whatever you feel comfortable with, well above the top of the pick up strainer. Unfortunately, the lowest point of the crank can't be found without either an engineering drawing of the BMC, or taking off the sump pan and measuring it. The manual for the BMC1.5 has an excellent drawing, front on, showing the internals, from which this dimension could be worked out. Unfortunately, the BMC1.8 manual I have does not, but someone might have one. Even some one with a 1.8BMC crank and a con rod could work out this dimension, as the centre line of the crank is on the same line as the base of the crank case. Add the dimension from the base of the crank case to the top of the tube and that is the highest the high mark should go.

Jen

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1 hour ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

So far, every one is using different criteria for what the dip stick height should be, which can vary from engine to engine, particularly with an old, mix and match marinised one. Dip stick (did it come from the engine it is now in?), dip stick tube sticking out of the engine block (matched to the engine/dip stick?), any plastic stop on the dip stick (still there? If it is, is it in the right place?). The same base engine can have multiple sump pans, shallow in an MGB, for example to keep the engine low to the ground, or bigger capacity for a commercial vehicle running for long hours. The dip stick tube could be long, or short, depending on ease of access and what other bits are bolted around the engine and the corresponding dip stick will vary for all these differences.

From first principals, the top of the oil and the high point on the stick should be just below the lowest rotating bit of the crank. If it is higher than this, the turning crank will thrash the oil in to a foam.

The lowest point the oil should be so there is enough that there isn't a risk of the oil pickup sucking air and the oil supply to bearings failing. After it has lubricated various bearings, the oil falls back by gravity down in to the sump, so there needs to be a reservoir of oil above the pickup to cover the oil that is circulating round. In a car, there needs to be more oil, so that the pickup isn't exposed as the oil sloshes around when cornering, braking, or accelerating, but that isn't so much of a concern in a narrowboat, unless it is a hire boat 😀.

The more oil there is, the longer you can go between oil changes, as there is more oil to absorb the nasties from engine combustion that end up in it. My Beta43 has twice the oil capacity in its sump than a comparable Vetus engine (4.5l) and has oil change intervals of twice the hours.

So to set the high level, you need to know the angle of the engine when the boat is at its worse case trim and the lowest point of the crank, or big ends from the top of the dip stick tube. The low level, set to whatever you feel comfortable with, well above the top of the pick up strainer. Unfortunately, the lowest point of the crank can't be found without either an engineering drawing of the BMC, or taking off the sump pan and measuring it. The manual for the BMC1.5 has an excellent drawing, front on, showing the internals, from which this dimension could be worked out. Unfortunately, the BMC1.8 manual I have does not, but someone might have one. Even some one with a 1.8BMC crank and a con rod could work out this dimension, as the centre line of the crank is on the same line as the base of the crank case. Add the dimension from the base of the crank case to the top of the tube and that is the highest the high mark should go.

Jen

 

The information I have shows that the stroke of all BMC series B engines is the same ie:- 89mmm which, apart from the possibility of a heavier crankshaft casting, indicates that the depth of a rotating crankshaft is the same for all Series B engines.

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36 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

 

The information I have shows that the stroke of all BMC series B engines is the same ie:- 89mmm which, apart from the possibility of a heavier crankshaft casting, indicates that the depth of a rotating crankshaft is the same for all Series B engines.

OK, rereading the topic, the OP has confirmed he has a 1.5. The drawing from the manual is below and shows a piston at top dead centre. The position of two of the other pistons are therefore at the bottom of their stroke and is also shown. At the bottom of the stroke, one of the big end cap bolts on each con rod is going to hit the oil, if it is too high. There is even a dashed line showing the path of these bolts as the engine rotates. Importing the picture in to a drawing package and scaling, given that the stroke is 89mm, says that each pixel is 0.852mm. The distance from the end cap bottom bolt of the piston big end bearing to the sump parting line can be measured from this as 43mm. If the OP measures the height from the sump to crankcase line to the top of the dip stick tube, provided the tube is close to vertical and adds 43mm to it, then that is the absolute maximum level for the dip stick. Compensate for any bends, or off vertical run by adding in more length. Should help with the OP setting the correct height. I made an assumption earlier that the crankshaft centre is at the same level as the sump to crankshaft joint, which isn't the case on these engines. I am assuming that this drawing BMC made for their manual is to scale...

Jen

bmc1-5.png.04992b0a7fa28dbf11a6a7e2a048ac4b.png

To add to the above, the vertical distance from the sump oil pick up to the crank case parting line is 107mm scaled from the drawing, but this can vary a lot, depending on the sump that has been fitted.

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2 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Even some one with a 1.8BMC crank and a con rod could work out this dimension, as the centre line of the crank is on the same line as the base of the crank case.

 

Are you sure? That seemed to be the Ford way but the small BMC diesels had the base of the man bearing caps maybe 1/2" or so lower than the bottom of the bearing cup.

 

Also, the diagram above seems to have a drain plug so probably the automotive version that could only have a "half-length" main sump. The official Newage/Tempest marinisations had a full length cast iron sump.

 

Personally I think the OP is worrying about not much more than nothing. Lift the dipstick slightly and fix the stop. Next time an oil change is down measure the oil going back in to the dipstick level and if it is more or less the same or greater than specified in the manual it should be OK.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Are you sure? That seemed to be the Ford way but the small BMC diesels had the base of the man bearing caps maybe 1/2" or so lower than the bottom of the bearing cup.

No, see the end of the preceding post. You are right, I was basing it on Ford engines, which I have taken to bits and assuming it applied to BMC diesels, which I haven't and the assumption is wrong.

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13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Also, the diagram above seems to have a drain plug so probably the automotive version that could only have a "half-length" main sump. The official Newage/Tempest marinisations had a full length cast iron sump.

Almost certainly not a marine one. It is why I was basing everything on the maximum oil level, which doesn't change, not the minimum, which does, based on sump depth and application.

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11 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Its common for the stick to sit on the bottom of the sump.

 

There are anecdotal stories of dipsticks going through the sump, so wary of leaving the dipstick in this state. I can leave it midway by stiction, but feel that is a temporary state and prefer a permanent solution.

 

Currently, after filling with ~4.6/7 litres the oil level was above the max mark with it touching the bottom, I think it's the probably on the "X".

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In case it is of any help, my Newage/BMC Navigator engine data book shows the 1500cc model to have a sump and filter capacity of 9 Imp. pints (5.11 litres).  Maximum variation of engine from horizontal of 10 degrees with craft under way.  May be a starting point at least.

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I think we are all overthinking this question. If you simply put 5 litres in it will be near enough. The allowable tolerance on oil content is large, the manufacturers allow for inaccuracy.

 

It is said that as long as there is any on the stick at all the engine will run fine.

 

I have seen land rovers run across continents with nothing on the dip stick when local drivers have not bothered to check.

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22 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I think we are all overthinking this question. If you simply put 5 litres in it will be near enough. The allowable tolerance on oil content is large, the manufacturers allow for inaccuracy.

 

It is said that as long as there is any on the stick at all the engine will run fine.

 

I have seen land rovers run across continents with nothing on the dip stick when local drivers have not bothered to check.

 

I take your point.

 

I recall a friend travelling some distance, got to mine and checked the oil level. It was below the end of the stick. He poured in a litre, and it was still not on the stick. His thinking was, if he got there ok, he could surely get back home.

 

When I said 4.6/7 litres, I was going by eye on the side of the container! 🙂

 

I think I might go the route of adding cable ties to lift the dipstick off the bottom, and perhaps raise it the odd 20mm or so, so the max mark should match the known volume of oil.

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Are you sure? That seemed to be the Ford way but the small BMC diesels had the base of the man bearing caps maybe 1/2" or so lower than the bottom of the bearing cup.

 

Also, the diagram above seems to have a drain plug so probably the automotive version that could only have a "half-length" main sump. The official Newage/Tempest marinisations had a full length cast iron sump.

 

Personally I think the OP is worrying about not much more than nothing. Lift the dipstick slightly and fix the stop. Next time an oil change is down measure the oil going back in to the dipstick level and if it is more or less the same or greater than specified in the manual it should be OK.

 

The engine in Helvetia had a pressed steel sump with a drain plug socket, from which the manual oil drainage pump collected the oil. The sump is shallow for about a third of it's length, which your posts would suggest was originally an automotive engne. However, I have documentary evidence that when fitted, it was a brand new engine, fully Marinised by High Power Marine. Over the years I have seen quite a few of these engines in bits in the UCC Braunston workshop, and they all had pressed steel sumps, although some were deeper than others. I have never seen one with a cast sump. It may well have been the authorised Newage component, but I doubt that many marinisers of canal boat engines would have seen any additioal value in fitting a sump which was presumably a lot more expensive than the original equipment one.

 

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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