Newbie narrowboat rental questions

[Ex Brummie]

4 minutes ago, Laurie Booth said:

I love that boat, how long is it?

 

LoA 35 ft.

[BEngo]

Running a one-boat hire business is non-viable, regardless of the boat's cost or value.  There are just too many overheads which cannot be spread out. 

 

Hoseasons are a booking agency, not a hire business.  They will not do turn round, cleaning, hirer handover and training, breakdowns or anything other than make a booking.

 

If you really want to run one boat as a business then, as suggested above, see if you can find a hire company that operates sponsored boats.  Now, in the middle of the busy season, is not the time to talk to them.  Wait until at least October when the rush is over and their winter work plan is put to bed, but some boats are still out.

 

Abandon any thoughts of using your boat.  Hiring it is a business and using it comes straight off your bottom line.

 

Be prepared to find that the contract that the hire company will enter into is short.   Typically 3-5 years is the life of a hire boat.  It is then in need of a refit.  However, since a refit costs much the same as a fit-out many will look for a new replacement.   The benefit to you is that you have a paid for boat which you can use.

 

Also be prepared to find that the hire company want a specific layout, equipment and engine.  They will certainly want their own livery.  Budget for a complete repaint at the end of the contract.

 

Finally,  have another look down the sofa.  You will want at least £150k to get the sort of boat that is attractive in today's hire market.

 

N

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

31 minutes ago, Laurie Booth said:

I love that boat, how long is it?

 

[Laurie Booth]

1 hour ago, Ex Brummie said:

LoA 35 ft.

I must get some glasses

 

[Chrisalis]

1 hour ago, Laurie Booth said:

I love that boat, how long is it?

 

If you click the link, you'll get all the details.

[Laurie Booth]

5 minutes ago, Chrisalis said:

If you click the link, you'll get all the details.

 

[Chrisalis]

35 minutes ago, Laurie Booth said:

I must get some glasses

 

🍺🍷

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

And - have you investigated if the mooring provider allows boat hire from their moorings ?

 

Many don't, and the ones I know that do charge several £1000 per annum extra as you are now a 'commercial' customer, not a 'private' customer.

 

Are you expecting the boat hire to be 'static' for the duration of the hire, or, will they be 'allowed' out to cruise, in which case you will need to be available to sort out problems.

 

As has been suggested previously, it would really be the least hassle with the best return for you to allow a hire fleet to maintain and rent out your boat and pay you a % of the hire fees, and, allowing you a few weeks per annum for your own use.

Thank you Alan. Gosh, what knowledgeable people you are on here!

 

I'll check about the mooring and have already put feelers out for investment in a hire fleet narrowboat.

[Alan de Enfield]

40 minutes ago, Chrisalis said:

I'll check about the mooring and have already put feelers out for investment in a hire fleet narrowboat.

 

 

 

[Chrisalis]

On 12/08/2022 at 09:02, mrsmelly said:

If you want to spend money in this way go for sponsorship. Hire fleet owners have done this for years. The returns are vastly better than money in the bank and its generaly a safe method. I have friends who sponsor and a good friend with a business who uses them in his hire fleets. You can also book some time for personal use. There are differing deals with different fleets.

Thanks for that. Have you got a link for Hire fleet owners who do sponsorship?

[IanD]

21 minutes ago, Chrisalis said:

Thanks for that. Have you got a link for Hire fleet owners who do sponsorship?

Aqua Narrowboats do this.

[Chrisalis]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

Aqua Narrowboats do this.

Thanks Ian.

[manxmike]

To go back a few steps - are you looking for a narrow boat you can use that would hopefully pay for itself (unlikely), or are you looking for some sort of investment that would return a decent amount each year (equally unlikely)?

The suggestion made earlier in this thread about a share boat might be the sensible way to go, total cost £2,500 initial outlay (or thereabouts) for the share, then £50 (approx) per month giving you four weeks per annum holiday on a maintained boat.

Invest the balance - interest rates are starting to rise and £60,000 at 2% would give you £1,200 per annum. OK, that's not a lot, but then £70K isn't a large investment amount anyway and £1,200 is twice the annual monthly charge giving you £600 in your pocket, a boat for four weeks a year - fully maintained and serviced, insured and licenced, just fuel required.

Certainly that's something worth looking into in my opinion.

Edited August 15, 2022 by manxmike

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

Aqua Narrowboats do this.

And very smart the look

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

And very smart the look

They are nice boats too, we hired one a couple of years ago. Well built and maintained 🙂

[SteveLevis]

1 hour ago, manxmike said:

To go back a few steps - are you looking for a narrow boat you can use that would hopefully pay for itself (unlikely), or are you looking for some sort of investment that would return a decent amount each year (equally unlikely)?

The suggestion made earlier in this thread about a share boat might be the sensible way to go, total cost £2,500 initial outlay (or thereabouts) for the share, then £50 (approx) per month giving you four weeks per annum holiday on a maintained boat.

Invest the balance - interest rates are starting to rise and £60,000 at 2% would give you £1,200 per annum. OK, that's not a lot, but then £70K isn't a large investment amount anyway and £1,200 is twice the annual monthly charge giving you £600 in your pocket, a boat for four weeks a year - fully maintained and serviced, insured and licenced, just fuel required.

Certainly that's something worth looking into in my opinion.

 

...I think this is a good suggestion/compromise, but I think the costs quoted are a bit low, (....in the current climate), particularly if you go with a "managed" boat. We were a self managed (12 shares) boat and probably paid around £1k each per year to cover all our running costs, (eg maintenance, replacements, licenses, mooring fees). We  approached a management company and were advised we would need to pay an extra £450 'ish (each) on top of this.

 

When we started looking £2.5k would not get a "decent" quality/newer boat and we ended up spending around £4.5k. (You can get lower costs if you buy shares with weeks that are "out of season"). Mind you whatever you pay for the share you may well get back when you come to sell given the popularity of canal boat sharing?

Edited August 15, 2022 by SteveLevis

[ditchcrawler]

13 minutes ago, SteveLevis said:

 

...I think this is a good suggestion/compromise, but I think the costs quoted are a bit low, (....in the current climate), particularly if you go with a "managed" boat. We were a self managed (12 shares) boat and probably paid around £1k each per year to cover all our running costs, (eg maintenance, replacements, licenses, mooring fees). We  approached a management company and were advised we would need to pay an extra £450 'ish (each) on top of this.

 

When we started looking £2.5k would not get a "decent" quality/newer boat and we ended up spending around £4.5k. (You can get lower costs if you buy shares with weeks that are "out of season"). Mind you whatever you pay for the share you may well get back when you come to sell given the popularity of canal boat sharing?

How do you spend £12k on maintenance in a year. Licence, insurance, moorings maybe £5K so where does the other £7K go?

[SteveLevis]

....we had expensive tastes..... ...

 

.....around £1k, maybe £850/£900 some years  depending on what bits we wanted replacing each year, (eg solar panels, new cooker, fridge, annual blacking and winter works, we also wanted to maintain a healthy engine replacement / repainting / sinking fund should we need it being an older well used boat.

 

Also turnaround maintenance, every 1or 2 weeks as the the boat was more or less in constant use both high and low seasons, and as an an older boat that regularly required maintenance to the standard we wanted...

 

......and a "Marina of the year" that liked to charge you for the priviledge!

Edited August 15, 2022 by SteveLevis

[manxmike]

I have been looking into this possibility for myself, searching on line and speaking to people already holding shares, the prices I quoted are fairly similar to what I have found. OK, if I were to go for a new build with a butler, kitchen staff, hot and cold running chambermaids (I wish) then I would expect to pay a lot more.

There seem to be quite a number of shares available in quite a few boats at the moment, maybe the "boom" is coming to an end and prices are becoming more realistic?

However, I would be happy with a slightly older boat and the costs are pretty much as I said. Given that the OP rather likes the look of an older boat these charges are what he might find.

Horses for courses - you get what you pay for!

Edited August 16, 2022 by manxmike
missed words

[Alan de Enfield]

Maybe I'm not following the 'thread drift' .....................

 

I was under the impression that the suggestion was for the OP to buy a boat and let a hire company take the  responsibilty for all of the running costs and legalities of hiring, and, actually doing the advertising and hire of the boat, with a 'few' weeks retained for use by the owner. The hire company oay the owner a percentage of their hire income.

 

 

It seems to have now morphed to "buying a 'time-share' in a boat" which still retains the resposibility for the (share) of costs and maintenance.

 

Nothing wrong with a timeshare but it is different to the suggestion about 'sponsored boats' earlier in the thread.

 

I'm not sure if the OP is aware of the differences.

[SteveLevis]

33 minutes ago, manxmike said:

I have been looking into this possibility for myself, searching on line and speaking to people already holding shares, the prices I quoted are fairly similar to what I have found. OK, if I were to go for a new build with a butler, kitchen staff, hot and cold running chambermaids (I wish) then I would expect to pay a lot more.

There seem to be quite a number of shares available in quite a few boats at the moment, maybe the "boom" is coming to an end and prices are becoming more realistic?

However, I would be happy with a slightly older boat and the costs are pretty much as I said. Given that the OP rather likes the look of an older boat these charges are what he might find.

Horses for courses - you get what you pay for!

I think it can be a bit of a "catch 22", a lower share price would be for either an older boat which may well then require higher ongoing maintenance costs, (or possibly a newer boat with only "low season weeks available"), or initially pay more for a newer boat which requires less maintenance?

 

When we first started looking at shares (about 7 years ago), we looked at some boats around the £2.5k for a 12th share and soon realised that we would need to spend at least £1k+ more to get a boat that we liked. We ended up in a really nice self managed syndicate which also saved us around £450/yr each in management fees, however this does mean that all the syndicate members have to take an active role in doing all the work necessary, and as time went on and new members joined the syndicate there were fewer and fewer members who actually wanted to share this level work preferring to leave it all to the ever diminishing and willing "few". We liked to keep the boat well maintained and promptly replace any items that had failed, or were likely to fail so that other members would not lose their holiday weeks. We also liked to maintain a healthy sinking fund (£6k+), so that if the engine went south we couldm get it replaced with minimal financial impact to the existing syndicate members. (ie if you do buy into a share boat ALWAYS ask what how healthy thier sinking fund is as you don't want to buy into a boat that suddenly needs a new engine or £12k repaint and nothing "in the pot" to cover it!)

 

In some respects the actual buying cost of a share is not really an issue (assuming you have the money in the first place), as you could well get most of it back, particularly in the current climate. (We had members who actually sold their share after a few years for more than they paid for it in the first place), and the longer you are in a syndicate the more "cost effective" it becomes compared to renting. The only rel downside to sharing is that you are always limited to the marina the boat is based in, (which can be moved with agreement from all members), and the fact that the weeks you can choose very much depend on where you are on any particulr years "pecking order".

 

I guess you pays your money and makes your choice......happy hunting!

Edited August 16, 2022 by SteveLevis

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe I'm not following the 'thread drift' .....................

 

I was under the impression that the suggestion was for the OP to buy a boat and let a hire company take the  responsibilty for all of the running costs and legalities of hiring, and, actually doing the advertising and hire of the boat, with a 'few' weeks retained for use by the owner. The hire company oay the owner a percentage of their hire income.

 

 

It seems to have now morphed to "buying a 'time-share' in a boat" which still retains the resposibility for the (share) of costs and maintenance.

 

Nothing wrong with a timeshare but it is different to the suggestion about 'sponsored boats' earlier in the thread.

 

I'm not sure if the OP is aware of the differences.

 

"Sponsored boats" are what Aqua does -- you commission and buy the boat (at a discounted price?), it's then hired out for 4 years as part of the Aqua fleet, they do everything including maintenance and you get a percentage of the hire fees and several weeks "free" use of the boat every year for holidays. Aqua win because they don't have to find the capital to build the boats (and have a very nice "luxury" fleet of new boats), you win because you get the hire fees back, and after 4 years Aqua take the boat out of the hire fleet and it's yours, having been well maintained in the meantime (the boat we hired was well designed, well built and faultless).

 

https://www.aquanarrowboats.co.uk/sponsorship-faqs/

 

I did briefly consider going down this route, but I don't think they'd have wanted to hire out the boat I wanted... 😉

Edited August 16, 2022 by IanD

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe I'm not following the 'thread drift' .....................

 

I was under the impression that the suggestion was for the OP to buy a boat and let a hire company take the  responsibilty for all of the running costs and legalities of hiring, and, actually doing the advertising and hire of the boat, with a 'few' weeks retained for use by the owner. The hire company oay the owner a percentage of their hire income.

 

 

It seems to have now morphed to "buying a 'time-share' in a boat" which still retains the resposibility for the (share) of costs and maintenance.

 

Nothing wrong with a timeshare but it is different to the suggestion about 'sponsored boats' earlier in the thread.

 

I'm not sure if the OP is aware of the differences.

 

True, but the money the OP had to spend would not get anywhere near what is needed for a sponsor boat, so other options for getting access to a reasonable boat with the minimum outlay and ongoing costs are being discussed.

[Ronaldo47]

Black Prince started in 1976 with just two boats: a group of us hired them both for a week. The base was the  wharf at Cosgrove, but as one boat had an Elsan and the other, sea toilets that just dumped their contents into the cut, there was no need for pump-out facilities, just facilities for refuelling, cleaning, fresh water and gas bottle changing, and Elsan-emptying.

 

The boats had been bought brand new from Harborough Marine and were very well fitted out internally.  Hiring out an older boat that would be more likely to suffer breakdowns, is not what a sole boat owner needs. 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Ronaldo47
typos

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Ronaldo47 said:

Hiring out an older boat that would be more likely to suffer breakdowns, is not what a sole boat owner needs. 

 

Which is true, but there is no reason for an older well maintained boat built to hire boat standards should be any more likely to suffer breakdowns than a newer one. First because the majority of so-called breakdowns are caused by the hirer and then because a boat built for hire will normally have good access for inspection and servicing, so it is easier to spot and rectify the early signs of problems. In the 20 years we had the ex hire boat I think it only broke down once and that was with a faulty start battery that the solar had been doing a good job of covering up. In fact my son used the boat more than we did most years so in many ways it was used like a hire boat (he is a musician and not very practical). I accept that I might be able to spot and rectify incipient trouble better than someone without an engineering background but that I think is more troubling than the boat's age.

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Which is true, but there is no reason for an older well maintained boat built to hire boat standards should be any more likely to suffer breakdowns than a newer one. First because the majority of so-called breakdowns are caused by the hirer and then because a boat built for hire will normally have good access for inspection and servicing, so it is easier to spot and rectify the early signs of problems

 

 

This is a key point.

 

The buyer needs to decide if they want a 'private boat' or a 'rental boat' - the build requirements (and BSS) are quite different.

 

It is not easy to buy a secondhand 'private leisure' boat and make it suitable for hire use.