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Grand Union Canal - plan to carry drinking water from North to South.


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This is a very old chestnut.  It pops up periodically, and if founders every time on the basic engineering:

 

Pumping lots of water uphill is eye wateringly expensive because it is massively energy intensive;

As Magpie Patrick has said, the capacity of canals sounds good but is  really quite low and, in the case of the GU, the tunnels at Blisworth and Braunston are major limiting factors.

 

Shifting water from the Severn via the top of the W&B is the wrong route.  There is no need for water to go all the way up to the  Brum plateau when it could follow a similar  route to the Thames and Severn without needing to be pumped so high.  Getting through the bit of geography pierced by Sapperton tunnel might be an engineering challenge too.  Again the capacity is limited and the operating costs are high.

 

N

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2 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Pumping lots of water uphill is eye wateringly expensive because it is massively energy intensive;

As Magpie Patrick has said, the capacity of canals sounds good but is  really quite low and, in the case of the GU, the tunnels at Blisworth and Braunston are major limiting factors.

I don't disagree, but how does the pumping costs compare with pumping it through pipes, and what sized pipes do you need to get a significantly greater capacity than that of a canal channel?

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I mentioned the consultation that was happening over pumping  water into the Thames area using the Thames and Severn a few months ago. Would really aid the restoration. Looks like few if any here read it let alone took part 🤣

 

it was some way down a thread so should have guessed only one or two would have noted it. It’s difficult as only a few seem to read the first entry in a thread too before firing off on a tangent 🤣🤣🤣🤣 

 

Hopefully the silent majority replied to the consultation 

 

https://cotswoldcanals.org/water-resources-south-eastern-regional-plan/

 

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There’s more about it in the Autumn Trow, noting 300 in favour of the T&S water transfer. Formal consultation on the draft plans are due in October/November 2022. Sadly it seems at this stage that a Deerhurst pipeline maybe preferred by Thames Water.
A strong response is suggested if that comes out in the draft. The article by Ken Burgibn Director of the Cotswold Canal Tryst suggests that each letter of objection could be worth £500,000 if the plan involving the T&S succeeded 

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10 hours ago, David Mack said:

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I don't disagree, but how does the pumping costs compare with pumping it through pipes, and what sized pipes do you need to get a significantly greater capacity than that of a canal channel?

Could be a money spinner for CaRT. Place a massive pipe where the GU canal bed used to be. This will allow much higher volumes of water to be pumped from the northern wasteland to the important part of the country than is possible with an open channel with boats in it. No more annoying boaters, or fish botherers. Charge for the water transported and CaRT's money problems are solved. Big(ger) bonuses for the senior team! Keep the tow path for the walkers and cyclists. Paint the pipe CaRT blue. Job done!

 

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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5 minutes ago, john.k said:

The canals would be useful as an existing right of way for pipes......... as they are already owned by a government body,there isnt the likelyhood of years of lawsuits.

 

20 minutes ago, john.k said:

The canals would be useful as an existing right of way for pipes......... as they are already owned by a government body,there isnt the likelyhood of years of lawsuits.

I think you will find that the British Waterways canals etc in England and Wales were placed in a charitable trust in 2012... 

Thus they are no longer owned by a government department. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Could be a money spinner for CaRT. Place a massive pipe where the GU canal bed used to be. This will allow much higher volumes of water to be pumped from the northern wasteland to the important part of the country than is possible with an open channel with boats in it. No more annoying boaters, or fish botherers. Charge for the water transported and CaRT's money problems are solved. Big(ger) bonuses for the senior team! Keep the tow path for the walkers and cyclists. Paint the pipe CaRT blue. Job done!

 

If the pipe was big enough and only partly full you could have boats inside it. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

If the pipe was big enough and only partly full you could have boats inside it. 

 

Cut the roof off the pipe, then then the boaters can see a view and people on the tow path can see the boats. An open channel with boats in. I'm surprised no one has thought of this before. It'll never catch on though.

Once the water flow rate at a certain size and depth gets beyond a certain point, you can't have boats, especially heading from south to north. Plus the closed pipe gets rid of boats, which for CaRT is a plus. 😀

Initially I thought of painting the pipe CaRT corporate blue, but now I reckon it should have a linear mural of a picturesque canal, with ducks, bullrushes and gaily painted boats, with happy waving boaters at their sterns.

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Water companies spokesman on the R4 'Today' program this morning at 07:40:

 

"We're currently progressing 18 major cross country projects.........some really exciting schemes including things like using the Grand Union Canal to bring water down from the north of England"

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16 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

Water companies spokesman on the R4 'Today' program this morning at 07:40:

 

"We're currently progressing 18 major cross country projects.........some really exciting schemes including things like using the Grand Union Canal to bring water down from the north of England"

I heard that….there was muttering…mind you I think CRT would love it…”we have had to close navigation to ensure there’s enough drinking water for the south…..” They wouldn’t have those pesky locks to fix….the fishermen could still fish…and the cyclists would still have water next to them….

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On 01/08/2022 at 08:01, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Cut the roof off the pipe, then then the boaters can see a view and people on the tow path can see the boats. An open channel with boats in. I'm surprised no one has thought of this before. It'll never catch on though.

Once the water flow rate at a certain size and depth gets beyond a certain point, you can't have boats, especially heading from south to north. Plus the closed pipe gets rid of boats, which for CaRT is a plus. 😀

Initially I thought of painting the pipe CaRT corporate blue, but now I reckon it should have a linear mural of a picturesque canal, with ducks, bullrushes and gaily painted boats, with happy waving boaters at their sterns.

If you get the dimensions right you could drop your boat in at one end and get a flume ride all the way to London, and since once there everyone just wants to ‘continuously cruise’ there is no issue with not being able to get back the other way.

 

Alec

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1 minute ago, agg221 said:

If you get the dimensions right you could drop your boat in at one end and get a flume ride all the way to London, and since once there everyone just wants to ‘continuously cruise’ there is no issue with not being able to get back the other way.

 

Alec

I'd take the flume ride! You'd get lots of gongoozlers watching the gaily painted boats zoom by. A big uptick in CaRT's visitor figures. What's not to like?

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21 hours ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

I'd take the flume ride! You'd get lots of gongoozlers watching the gaily painted boats zoom by. A big uptick in CaRT's visitor figures. What's not to like?

 

We have previously suggested opening all the head and tail gates on Wigan Flight to turn it into a flume.

 

It would be really fast descending the flight but you'd have some issues going up ...

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42 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

We have previously suggested opening all the head and tail gates on Wigan Flight to turn it into a flume.

 

It would be really fast descending the flight but you'd have some issues going up ...

Take the Rochdale, or the Huddersfield Narrow to loop back round to the top again. Any route that's part of a cruising ring could include one, or more flumes, provided that people are prepared to be limited to either a clockwise, or anti-clockwise circuit.

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On 31/07/2022 at 22:21, rogeriko said:

Birmingham gets its water from the Elan valley in N Wales 73 miles away. 320 million litres per day flow along an old pipeline built in the 1890's No pumps just gravity.  Its a shame we cant do anything like that anymore.


Except that we do. A pipeline ihas recently been constructed from the River Severn to Birmingham as a back up to the Elan Valley pipes

 

https://waterprojectsonline.com/custom_case_study/birmingham-resilience-project-raw-water-project-2020/

Edited by Tim Lewis
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Some bean counters saved some money mothballing this?

 

£250 million desalination plant constructed by Thames Water is unavailable this summer after being built to supply 400,000 London homes with drinking water every day in the case of a drought.

The Beckton desalination plant in east London was promised as a major reserve of potable water to cope with drier UK summers - but in a summer that has already seen the hottest temperatures ever recorded, it is out of use.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 05/08/2022 at 07:11, Tim Lewis said:


Except that we do. A pipeline ihas recently been constructed from the River Severn to Birmingham as a back up to the Elan Valley pipes

 

https://waterprojectsonline.com/custom_case_study/birmingham-resilience-project-raw-water-project-2020/

Its pumped by 2mw pump stations costing 16800 pounds a day in electricity. The old pipeline just flowed on its own with breakpoints to slow the flow where necessary.  And a Thomas Telford bridge to carry the pipes over the river Severn.  https://www.svrwiki.com/Elan_Valley_Aqueduct

 

Its difficult to visit this bridge because it is on private property.

Elan_Valley_aqueduct_-_geograph.org.uk_-_5532.jpg

River_Severn,Bewdley_Aqueduct_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1712149.jpg

Edited by rogeriko
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3 hours ago, john.k said:

My point was that the canals could be dug up,pipes laid ,backfilled ,and canal restored .........win ,win situation for everyone.

Be cheaper to lay the pipes in the canal and then back fill, be careful what you wish for. Think of the Wendover arm.

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