Specifying a new (1st) Narrowboat and need help choosing the right engine

[x20rmw]

21 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its a cruiser stern with built in seating, which to me makes more sense than a standard cruiser stern (if you wan't to waste a whole load of cabin space at the back😀). If its a non liveaboard/weekend boat where you plan to travel with friends/family I suppose it makes sense. The idea of a semi trad is to make a cruiser look like a trad, so this has no semi trad charactereistics. But as a die hard trad trad person its all foreign to me.

This is pretty much the use intended with friends and family. If i was considering liveaboard  then i would not choose this layout and would go for the maximum space.

[Cheshire cat]

At 60 ft you can afford the space to make it friends and family friendly. 

 

A Trad layout (which I have) simply isn't. 

[nicknorman]

21 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Front pulleys breaking off, incorrectly machined bell housings for starters.

Front pulleys breaking off, incorrectly machined bell housings for starters.

This is true, but the issues was resolved many years ago. Canaline have not been around that long - I think?

[Tracy D'arth]

29 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

This is true, but the issues was resolved many years ago. Canaline have not been around that long - I think?

Kioti Daedong have been making engines for tractors since 1947 which predates Beta by a long margin.

[PD1964]

34 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

This is true, but the issues was resolved many years ago. Canaline have not been around that long - I think?

I believe the Marine/Canal importer/supplier of Isuzu engines just rebranded the name to Canaline, basically the same engine and supply company.

Edited July 31, 2022 by PD1964

[booke23]

5 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Kioti Daedong have been making engines for tractors since 1947 which predates Beta by a long margin.

 

Kubota (Beta base engine) have been making engines since 1922.

 

6 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

I believe the Marine/Canal importer/supplier of Isuzu engines just rebranded the name to Canaline, basically the same engine and supply company.

 

They certainly used to, but I think nearly all their engines these days are Kioti. 

[Tracy D'arth]

11 minutes ago, booke23 said:

 

Kubota (Beta base engine) have been making engines since 1922.

 

 

They certainly used to, but I think nearly all their engines these days are Kioti. 

Isuzu withdrew from the UK marine market I believe.

 

Kubota only started production of vertical water cooled diesel engines in 1959, the war stopped all previous horizontal gas, petrol and kerosene  production. 

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Front pulleys breaking off, incorrectly machined bell housings for starters.

Front pulleys breaking off, incorrectly machined bell housings for starters.

 

Front pulley issue satisfactorily resolved in 2005/6 by dropping the keyway in the crank extension to drive the extra pulley for the TravelPower alternator and reverting to the splined power take off crank extension that Kabota have always used.

 

When did they have the bell housing issues? I've never heard of that problem.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

Front pulley issue satisfactorily resolved in 2005/6 by dropping the keyway in the crank extension to drive the extra pulley for the TravelPower alternator and reverting to the splined power take off crank extension that Kabota have always used.

 

When did they have the bell housing issues? I've never heard of that problem.

Around the same time or a bit later. The engine and gearbox mounting faces were not concentric, poor machining.

In fairness to Kubota, the problems were of Beta's origin in the main when they marinised the base engines.

[cuthound]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Around the same time or a bit later. The engine and gearbox mounting faces were not concentric, poor machining.

In fairness to Kubota, the problems were of Beta's origin in the main when they marinised the base engines.

 

Thanks Tracy.

[system 4-50]

Beta, 'cos they are such nice people to deal with.  Or they were with me.

[OldGoat]

15 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

Beta, 'cos they are such nice people to deal with.  Or they were with me.

And me!!

In addition to the above plaudits, I recommend Beta because IME the Kubota engine has been designed by the manufacturers to make it easy to adapt the basic engine to a very wide range of tasks, for example

• different gearboxes
• heat exchanger exhaust manifolds
• shallow and deep sumps
• power takeoff options
• Multiple alternators

The founder of the company was a salty water boater and knew the challenges of restricted spaces in an engine room. That made me feel comfortable when deciding what engine to fit in my boat. At that time choice was between Beta, Ford, BMC, Petter and mebe some others.

[Chris John]

Beta if you want the best. Canal line if your decision is based on budget 

[PeterF]

What may also have an impact on the engine is availability. Speaking to the builder that finished our boat 16 months ago with a Beta 43 has said that the supply of engines is tight and this customers have had to have a different engine to their 1st choice because when it was time to order they could not get one.

[booke23]

17 minutes ago, PeterF said:

What may also have an impact on the engine is availability. Speaking to the builder that finished our boat 16 months ago with a Beta 43 has said that the supply of engines is tight and this customers have had to have a different engine to their 1st choice because when it was time to order they could not get one.

 

This is a very good point. 

 

So if you were building a boat and couldn't get a Beta engine, what would you choose? My alternates in order of preference:

 

1. Barrus Shire (Yanmar)

2. Nanni (Kubota) 

3. Vetus (Mitsubishi)....with great reluctance as their spares are a complete rip off. 

 

[PeterF]

I had a Barrus Shire 40 in my previous boat from 2002, still working well when it was sold in 2020 so I would have no trouble recommending one.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, booke23 said:

1. Barrus Shire (Yanmar)

 

I have a Yanmar digger (excavator) and the engine goes on and on and on with very little (no) maintenence. Changed the fuel filter last winter (1st time since 2005) as the fuel had frozen up and gone all 'white and jellified' Don't think I've ever changed the oil filter.

 

The hours have gone 'off the clock', it just 'works'.

[booke23]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I have a Yanmar digger (excavator) and the engine goes on and on and on with very little (no) maintenence. Changed the fuel filter last winter (1st time since 2005) as the fuel had frozen up and gone all 'white and jellified' Don't think I've ever changed the oil filter.

 

The hours have gone 'off the clock', it just 'works'.

 

Before owning a boat, I hired quite a few boats with Barrus shire engines with galactic hours and they all ran well. I also like the checker plate step they put on the top of the engine, very handy when clambering around in the engine bay. The only downside is they are a bit smoky at idle...a normal characteristic, something to do with swirl chambers. 

 

Of course any of the marinised industrial engines should be good for many many hours.

[OldGoat]

It's not so much the 'quality' of the engine but more of the marinisation (? marination) of the unit.

Beta use 'flat' belts (whatever they are called)  for the auxiliary alternators etc; othders use V-belts - I was forever adjusting an early Beta engine with those.

 

If you're sensible enough to have freshwater cooling then the quality of the heat exchanger is part of the equation as well.

[MtB]

35 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

If you're sensible STOOPID enough to have freshwater cooling then the quality of the heat exchanger is part of the equation as well.

 

Fixed that for you....

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, booke23 said:

The only downside is they are a bit smoky at idle...a normal characteristic, something to do with swirl chambers

 

To be more precise, the lack of any. The swirl in the cylinder of direct injected engines tends to be less than ideal at low speed so you get incomplete combustion until the piston and thus swirl speed increases.

[Tony Brooks]

nte aiak

Just now, MtB said:

 

Fixed that for you....

 

 

 

Actually virtually all marinised engines over the last 40 or 50 years have had fresh water cooling, be they tank cooled, keel cooled, or heat exchanger cooled. What OG is trying to say is indirect raw water cooled and in that I agree with you, stoopid. In any case I don't see how a sea boat with indirect raw water cooling can be fresh water cooled. Why complicate things with raw water inlets and strainers that can and do block, pipe/hose runs under suction so any leaks are harder to find and a raw water pump that needs regular maintenance and if it does not get it allows the engine to boil. A decent silencer is as effective exhaust noise wise as a typical wet exhaust system.

[robtheplod]

I've had really good experiences with Beta. When we got our boat i couldn't identify the engine (missing ID due to age)... They got the details of it from the gearbox and sent me over loads of spreadsheets on it, including all the testing, all the wiring diagrams etc....

[OldGoat]

Mebe I shouldn't rise to the bait - but just in case anyone's remotely interested -

 

When we hired boats many, many years ago I had to go down the weed hatch to clear a matterss - and  burnt my elbow on the (insufficiently) insulated exhaust. The next hire was from Teddesley Boat Co whose boats were fresh water heat exchanger cooled. No more burnt elbows, quieter running engines, cooler engine bay.

Sooo when I had a hull built for us, I asked for heat exchanger cooling. I got a massive mud box with a slotted intake and baffle to which I fitted a Vetus second stage filter.

In 30 years of boating it has never blocked - apart from om one tine whe The Management pulled over to the 'wrong side' on the Audlem flight into a pile of leaves which restircted any intake for a miute or so.

The exhaust piping is easier to run as it is flexible rubber pipe and I could put the externat exhaust flange where I wanted. It also meant that the engine mounts could be softer - further reducing engine noise transmission - great when charging batteries and not cruising.

The engine bay is cool, we have quiet running and battery charging - sooo what's not to like

[GUMPY]

Have to agree with @OldGoat .

I have been running HE cooled engines for twenty years now and can't remember mine blocking although I do clean the filter every day whether it needs it or not.

Both of us have 50hp Beta and to get a skin tank large enough to cool the engine (13sqft) would encroach on the living space. 

On Parglena it would have needed to be 30sqft God knows where I could have put a tank or two to make that size.