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CRT training vlockies today, wrongly


LadyG

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2 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm astonished that you didn't set a chain hook in place before the anchor bit, that's pretty basic stuff for a lumpy water skipper, and always stipulated in the instructions that accompany any windlass, electric or manual.

 

How can you use a chain hook when you are paying out the anchor chain ?

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

How can you use a chain hook when you are paying out the anchor chain ?

I'm sure you know...

 

You pay out the chain faster than you are dropping back with the current, (whilst ensuring that no chain in dropped directly onto the anchor) so there is a deep catenary between the boat and the anchor that is resting, but not at this point dug in on the sea/river bed. You then stop the anchor windlass, slip the chain hook under the chain, then one tiny bit more on the windlass, until the chain hook is supporting the chain that is overboard. The current will continue to make the boat drift back until the chain's catenary straightens and the anchor bites. You then motor gently astern to dig it in with one final burst of engine to satisfy yourself that the anchor has set firmly. 

 

Basic stuff 

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17 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm sure you know...

 

You pay out the chain faster than you are dropping back with the current, (whilst ensuring that no chain in dropped directly onto the anchor) so there is a deep catenary between the boat and the anchor that is resting, but not at this point dug in on the sea/river bed. You then stop the anchor windlass, slip the chain hook under the chain, then one tiny bit more on the windlass, until the chain hook is supporting the chain that is overboard. The current will continue to make the boat drift back until the chain's catenary straightens and the anchor bites. You then motor gently astern to dig it in with one final burst of engine to satisfy yourself that the anchor has set firmly. 

 

Basic stuff 

Every day is a school day for me. 

 

‘Caternary’ 👍

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11 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

You pay out the chain faster than you are dropping back with the current

 

 

I know that is the principle, but

1) How do you know how much chain you are going to have to let out ? Do you go for 3x depth. 5x depth, 7x depth.

2) Are you suggesting that we pull 45 / 75 metres of chain out of the locker and flake it out on the deck ? (you cannot connect the chain hook until the correct amout of chain is 'out' of the chain locker and f'ward of the windlass

3) Try paying out chain faster than a 5knt tide off Spurn Point.

 

The chain was being paid out by the windlass, when the anchor set, the chain (which was in the Gypsy) was put under a big shock load and pulled the windlass off its mounts.

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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I know that is the principle, but

1) How do you know how much chain you are going to have to let out ? Do you go for 3x depth. 5x depth, 7x depth.

2) Are you suggesting that we pull 45 / 75 metres of chain out of the locker and flake it out on the deck ? (you cannot connect the chain hook until the correct amout of chain is 'out' of the chain locker and f'ward of the windlass

3) Try paying out chain faster than a 5knt tide off Spurn Point.

 

The chain was being paid out by the windlass, when the anchor set, the chain (which was in the Gypsy) was put under a big shock load and pulled the windlass off its mounts.

No sane person would anchor in a place where the tide runs at 5 knots, other than in an emergency.

 

Assuming that it's not an emergency, you would motor in forward so that the boat was dropping back at a speed that was less than the speed that the anchor windlass could pay out chain.

 

Not the depth of water, the distance from the sea bed up to the bow roller or bottom of the hawse pipe, as it's the angle of pull that's important, not the depth of the water. The measurement to be the high tide measurement, assuming you'll be there over high tide.

 

3x for a lunch stop, 5x for overnight in calm conditions and 7x or everything you've got in a blow.

 

Don't you have a chain counter? If not, you know how many metres per minute your windlass pays out, so time it for a very good idea. Use chain markers to be certain.

 

Apart from an engine failure emergency, there is no reason to dig in an anchor with the chain on the gypsy and not supported with a chain hook or chain catcher; I never have.

 

 

May I suggest that you were travelling backwards far too fast.

Or maybe you were using the engine to dig in the anchor before setting the chain hook.

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From some earlier posts, I worry that my habit of sticking my head out of the roof hatch to watch passing boats must get me counted as a "slow down" maniac by some here. 😬

I'm not watching you in case you're going too fast, I just like looking at boats!

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Just now, Francis Herne said:

From some earlier posts, I worry that my habit of sticking my head out of the roof hatch to watch passing boats must get me counted as a "slow down" maniac by some here. 😬

I'm not watching you in case you're going too fast, I just like looking at boats!

I'm the same, I'll regularly jump up to have a look to see what boat is passing especially if it has a chuggy engine.  I think I may have once shouted slow down but they must have been going stupidly fast.

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2 hours ago, Rob-M said:

I'm the same, I'll regularly jump up to have a look to see what boat is passing especially if it has a chuggy engine.  I think I may have once shouted slow down but they must have been going stupidly fast.

Me too. I love chuf-chuf boats and always try and sneak a peak at the engine if the side doors are open.

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2 hours ago, Francis Herne said:

From some earlier posts, I worry that my habit of sticking my head out of the roof hatch to watch passing boats must get me counted as a "slow down" maniac by some here. 😬

I'm not watching you in case you're going too fast, I just like looking at boats!

I add a wave and smile

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16 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Me too. I love chuf-chuf boats and always try and sneak a peak at the engine if the side doors are open.

 

 

"Chuffy engines" as our forum dreamer used to call them, before she vanished.

 

Lovely term! 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

 

"Chuffy engines" as our forum dreamer used to call them, before she vanished.

 

Lovely term! 

 

 

 

 

Now that rings a bell\; somebody Charlton, wasn't it? I remember that she and her husband were looking for their first boat.

After posting prolifically and cheerily on that subject, she did disappear quite suddenly. I don't know whether somebody on here upset her or whether they just changed their plans.

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1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I add a wave and smile

Coming up Broad Cut t'other day, slow and steady, shallow draft, cut is deep and wide, so no issues. I was looking at a lovely Dutch hull, was about to comment to the owner stood on deck how nice it looked. Before I had chance he launched into his slow down rant. I pointed out that his boat wasn't moving, asked if he thought it was moving, he replied with a blank stare! There is no pleasing some folks, it's just a tic triggered by any passing boat. 

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4 hours ago, Francis Herne said:

From some earlier posts, I worry that my habit of sticking my head out of the roof hatch to watch passing boats must get me counted as a "slow down" maniac by some here. 😬

I'm not watching you in case you're going too fast, I just like looking at boats!

 

Not at all. Conversing or simply exchanging a greeting or a wave with the occupants of boats that you pass is an enjoyable part of cruising. It's those who make a point of locating you on approach and then seem to deliberately avoid any form of (positive) exchange I was referring to. I suspect they are actually disappointed to find you've slowed down and it's always good to oblige them.

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  • 3 weeks later...

On the question of vlockie  training and/or instructions from CRT re. current water shortage. On coming up the locks at Fradley Junction today the vlockie turned the open lock on us as we approached to allow another boat to descend. An error, or perhaps faulty eyesight. No big deal. Then exactly the same thing happened on the second lock. That is two lock’s full of precious water wasted on the Trent and Mersey. Who knows how many times this happens each day. 

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49 minutes ago, Derek Porteous said:

On the question of vlockie  training and/or instructions from CRT re. current water shortage. On coming up the locks at Fradley Junction today the vlockie turned the open lock on us as we approached to allow another boat to descend. An error, or perhaps faulty eyesight. No big deal. Then exactly the same thing happened on the second lock. That is two lock’s full of precious water wasted on the Trent and Mersey. Who knows how many times this happens each day. 

And someone suggested that a new boater should become a CRT Volockie to get good experience

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I was trying to understand how a topic about volunteers on CRT locks could become a discussion about anchoring in coastal waters flowing at 5 knots (that is 5 3/4 miles per hour)

 

Answers on a post card to the CRT Lack of Interest Office ( CLIOF).

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3 hours ago, Heartland said:

I was trying to understand how a topic about volunteers on CRT locks could become a discussion about anchoring in coastal waters flowing at 5 knots (that is 5 3/4 miles per hour)

 

Answers on a post card to the CRT Lack of Interest Office ( CLIOF).

 

Simply that IanD is having a new sooper-dooper hi-tec top of the range everything fitted Narrowboat but has gone for the cheaper, lower performing version anchor of a very high performance model by the same manufacturer.

The time a NB needs to anchor it is "brown trouser time", and the anchor needs to work 1st time every time and bring 20 tonne to an emergency stop - saving a couple of £100 seems to be false economy when the anchor could save the loss of a £100,000 / £150,000 new boat.

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Simply that IanD is having a new sooper-dooper hi-tec top of the range everything fitted Narrowboat but has gone for the cheaper, lower performing version anchor of a very high performance model by the same manufacturer.

The time a NB needs to anchor it is "brown trouser time", and the anchor needs to work 1st time every time and bring 20 tonne to an emergency stop - saving a couple of £100 seems to be false economy when the anchor could save the loss of a £100,000 / £150,000 new boat.

I think he’s spending a bit more than that. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Simply that IanD is having a new sooper-dooper hi-tec top of the range everything fitted Narrowboat but has gone for the cheaper, lower performing version anchor of a very high performance model by the same manufacturer.

The time a NB needs to anchor it is "brown trouser time", and the anchor needs to work 1st time every time and bring 20 tonne to an emergency stop - saving a couple of £100 seems to be false economy when the anchor could save the loss of a £100,000 / £150,000 new boat.

Could one maybe suggest that if you are needing to use an anchor to cause an 'emergency stop' perhaps the tide/current you are in might have been an inadvisable choice in the first instance? My thoughts on anchoring would be should I suffer an engine failure on a river, to deploy it to prevent the boat drifting towards the nearest weir. If I was being swept towards the nearest weir perhaps I might be in the wrong place with my boat (they aren't designed to deal with strong currents).

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4 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

My thoughts on anchoring would be should I suffer an engine failure on a river, to deploy it to prevent the boat drifting towards the nearest weir. If I was being swept towards the nearest weir perhaps I might be in the wrong place with my boat (they aren't designed to deal with strong currents).

 

Maybe it is a very thin line between 'drifting' and being 'swept'.

Drifting to me would suggest being pretty much stationary and just 'swirling about' responding primarily to the the wind. Being 'swept' would suggest the 2 or 3 mph current on the River Trent as the river narrows on the approach to (say) Cromwell weir and Cromwell Lock.

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11 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

Could one maybe suggest that if you are needing to use an anchor to cause an 'emergency stop' perhaps the tide/current you are in might have been an inadvisable choice in the first instance? My thoughts on anchoring would be should I suffer an engine failure on a river, to deploy it to prevent the boat drifting towards the nearest weir. If I was being swept towards the nearest weir perhaps I might be in the wrong place with my boat (they aren't designed to deal with strong currents).

 

Quite.

 

Just as some boaters on here a few years ago seemed to spend their whole boating lives decanting boiling water from one container to another so they could complain about other boats speeding past, Alan seems to have suffered endless engine failures within the draw of dangerous weirs and was constantly needing to deploy an anchor big enough to moor an oil rig in an emergency to save his narrowboat from certain disaster.

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19 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Quite.

 

Just as some boaters on here a few years ago seemed to spend their whole boating lives decanting boiling water from one container to another so they could complain about other boats speeding past, Alan seems to have suffered endless engine failures within the draw of dangerous weirs and was constantly needing to deploy an anchor big enough to moor an oil rig in an emergency to save his narrowboat from certain disaster.

 

I think you are intentionally exagerating and not actually repeating the information I have posted previously.

 

1) I have NEVER suffered an engine failure within the draw of dangerous weirs.

2) I have never had to deploy an anchor 'in anger' on a river or canal (but have practiced and demonstrated its use quite a few times)

3) I have assisted a few times in rescuing boats that have had engine failures upstream of dangerous weirs (one that killed 10 Paratroopers when their boat was SWEPT over the weir (but you'll probably label that as fake news)

4) I have towed away a boat whose anchor was dragging and who was within a 100 yards of the weir.

 

Just because it hasn't happened to you, doesn't mean it never happens. Have you actually spent much time on some of the big Rivers, such as the Trent, Humber, Ouse  that have a 'flow' ?

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12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Quite.

 

Just as some boaters on here a few years ago seemed to spend their whole boating lives decanting boiling water from one container to another so they could complain about other boats speeding past, Alan seems to have suffered endless engine failures within the draw of dangerous weirs and was constantly needing to deploy an anchor big enough to moor an oil rig in an emergency to save his narrowboat from certain disaster.

To be honest, for me deploying an anchor is something that should be done in a considered and controlled fashion, doing it in a 'brown trouser' moment is just as likely to make matters substantially worse.

 

If we take a hypothetical example travelling from Limehouse through London on a following tide and you suffer engine failure. Would deploying your anchor be a wise move? Ignoring the fact that the boat may well be travelling at 9mph (we were under Tower Bridge) so there is a good chance that if you are 'lucky' enough for the anchor to bite, with the momentum of 18 tons of narrow boat there is a fair chance of it ripping out whatever the warp is attached to. The next issue is if you are 'lucky' enough for the warp to hold, the tide is going to spin your boat around so you will be broadside for a period to the rest of the river traffic, what could possibly go wrong?:unsure: And assuming that you are 'lucky' enough to survive both of those, you now have a stationary boat in the middle of a river with other boat traffic travelling relatively fast, again, what could possibly go wrong? Had I suffered engine failure under those conditions my first action would have been to go onto the radio to see if there was another boat nearby who could assist in some way.

 

Even in less dramatic situations, if you deploy your anchor whilst travelling on any river with the current or tide, you need to be d*mn sure that there is going to be width for your boat to turn into the flow otherwise you are just going to be stuck across the river, trapped by the flow.

 

As another anecdotal example, we have in the last few days passed this weir near Normanton on the River Soar.

image.png.5d39d0a41e387d84937c411959c5e3e2.png

For those that know it you come under the road bridge and immediately have two weirs on your right hand side (starboard). The first is a bit of a 'baby' weir, but the second seems to carry quite a lot of water (and we haven't had much rain recently). Any though of deploying an anchor following engine failure there would be a disaster here. All it would do would be to stop the boat and you'd immediately get swept to the weir.

 

When doing lumpy water sailing I never deployed an anchor to achieve an emergency stop, and I don't anticipate having to do it in a narrow boat.

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